Proteins

[Polyarmour]

"all plant foods contain all 8 essential human amino acids"

I'm going to play devil's advocate here - to what levels do they contain all of those amino acids? surely, they don't all have the same amount of each amino acid?

No they don't. Wheat for example is a bit short on Lycine, one of the essential amino acids. This doesn't mean you can't get your protein hit from wheat products, it just means you have to eat a bit more of it compared to eating eggs, meat or dairy.

Your daily protein requirement will be about 50-60gms. This is about the size of an egg. The moment you go over your protein requirement your body starts to break the redundant protein down. So most of that 300g steak is not building muscle, it's being flushed down the toilet.

A bowl of cereal with soy milk gives about 25g of protein. That's nearly half your daily protein needs over and done with at breakfast time and you still have several meals to go for the day. A very small handful of nuts has 5-6gms, a salad sandwich 15-20gms, a bowl of vegetable soup 10gms and you're basically done. Most of us would eat way more than this during a day so most of us are taking in way more protein than we need to without even trying. Well, after a bit of research that's my take on it anyway.

 

[Fieldsprint]

WTF is the china study? Its the most comprehensive epidemiological study EVER done on human nutrtion.

it's the China Study I've been reading, which is why I ask the question of where (what sources) people get their protein from...

While I don't possibly believe Durianrider will be persuaded from toting the party line (afterall, he has cycled over 170,000kms as a vegan!), the following information is for those with the time and inclination to investigate the merits of just one of Durianrider's claims.

http://rawfoodsos.com/category/china-study/

Note: China study guru T. Colin Campbell responds twice to Denise Mingers analysis.

For even more fun, check out this debate between Campbell and Paleo guru Loren Cordain.

http://www.cathletics.com/articles/proteinDebate.pdf

Here is part of a review of the debate:

"Cordain’s paper contains no less than 134 references, and his rebuttal to Campbell contains another 30. Campbell, in support of a low protein, low fat, diet provides, uh, let me count, ZERO citations. He manages a few in his rebuttal to Cordain, but a couple of those are to himself, and only one that I saw appeared to be a peer-reviewed article. He makes some fairly bold statements, like “overwhelming findings on the adverse health effects of dietary protein” and “remarkable healing effects now being routinely accomplished by my clinician colleagues”, again with no citations to supporting peer-reviewed literature."

The rest can be read at:

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/uncategorized/397/

I think this information speaks for itself, but I encourage everyone to read and come to their own conclusion.

 

[Polyarmour]

While I don't possibly believe Durianrider will be persuaded from toting the party line (afterall, he has cycled over 170,000kms as a vegan!), the following information is for those with the time and inclination to investigate the merits of just one of Durianrider's claims.

http://rawfoodsos.com/category/china-study/

Note: China study guru T. Colin Campbell responds twice to Denise Mingers analysis.

For even more fun, check out this debate between Campbell and Paleo guru Loren Cordain.

http://www.cathletics.com/articles/proteinDebate.pdf

Here is part of a review of the debate:

"Cordain’s paper contains no less than 134 references, and his rebuttal to Campbell contains another 30. Campbell, in support of a low protein, low fat, diet provides, uh, let me count, ZERO citations. He manages a few in his rebuttal to Cordain, but a couple of those are to himself, and only one that I saw appeared to be a peer-reviewed article. He makes some fairly bold statements, like “overwhelming findings on the adverse health effects of dietary protein” and “remarkable healing effects now being routinely accomplished by my clinician colleagues”, again with no citations to supporting peer-reviewed literature."

The rest can be read at:

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/uncategorized/397/

I think this information speaks for itself, but I encourage everyone to read and come to their own conclusion.

Thanks for that post Fieldsprint, I wasn't aware of this raging debate. It can be very difficult to work out what to do when you find the supposed nutritional experts disagreeing so vehemently with each other. It's amazing that we can send a man to the moon but after all this time we're not really sure what we should be eating. Dogs and cows certainly don't have the same problem.

This issue is a bit like climate change, you can find intelligent people on either side of the fence and ultimately your own view is formed by your own beliefs, perceptions and inclinations rather than the science (which is not providing a clear answer anyway).

For example, you know how you feel when you eat certain types of foods. I went on an Atkins diet once and I can tell you I have never felt worse in my life... so I'm never going there again no matter what anyone says. I know I feel better eating more plant food than meat, I know I have more energy, feel healthy and I know I have no problem with keeping the weight off. I know the times when I ate lots of meat were the times when I was the most lethargic and fat and sick. I have also known this for a very long time however putting it into practice has often been difficult within a family environment.

We should let the experts continue to argue amongst themselves, maybe one day they will find a consensus about what we should do. But in the meantime I'm steering away from paleo diets in favour of vego diets based on what I see it doing for me.... coz that's all I've got to go on really.

 

[Archibald]

Thanks for that post Fieldsprint, I wasn't aware of this raging debate. It can be very difficult to work out what to do when you find the supposed nutritional experts disagreeing so vehemently with each other. It's amazing that we can send a man to the moon but after all this time we're not really sure what we should be eating. Dogs and cows certainly don't have the same problem.

This issue is a bit like climate change, you can find intelligent people on either side of the fence and ultimately your own view is formed by your own beliefs, perceptions and inclinations rather than the science (which is not providing a clear answer anyway).

For example, you know how you feel when you eat certain types of foods. I went on an Atkins diet once and I can tell you I have never felt worse in my life... so I'm never going there again no matter what anyone says. I know I feel better eating more plant food than meat, I know I have more energy, feel healthy and I know I have no problem with keeping the weight off. I know the times when I ate lots of meat were the times when I was the most lethargic and fat and sick. I have also known this for a very long time however putting it into practice has often been difficult within a family environment.

We should let the experts continue to argue amongst themselves, maybe one day they will find a consensus about what we should do. But in the meantime I'm steering away from paleo diets in favour of vego diets based on what I see it doing for me.... coz that's all I've got to go on really.

have to agree, including the thanks to Fieldsprint - I started on Minger's site, but got a bit lost, so will have a better read if I can make the time...

I tend to look at a lot of it via the Laws of Nature, as we are, like it or not, animals ourselves, and supposedly evolved from a similar creature to our "tree swinging" cousins... as such, we're not exactly a true carnivore/hunter like, say, the big cats. Each animal subsists on it's "natural" diet, so surely we had such a diet too (back in the times of "caveman"), and I suspect that its fairly safe to say that it didn't have a great amount of meat in it...
As pointed out earlier, some of nature's strongest and largest creatures survive purely on certain leaves or grasses (their "natural" diets).

We are the only creature to cook it's food. The only creature to drink the milk of another species. The list goes on of ways that we separate ourselves from the natural world, or our natural history...
Perhaps we need to look back instead of forward to find the truth in just what we really need to eat to live and survive at our optimum?

What is fast becoming blatantly obvious is that the current "modern"/"western" diet is completely wrong for us and is not really doing us much good in the process...

 

[Polyarmour]

.... We are the only creature to cook it's food./QUOTE]

Just expanding on that comment, we are the only "carnivore" that cooks its MEAT. That is. in order for us to eat it, we need to process it in a very particular way, a way that no other carnivore on earth does. For the most part we don't have to cook vegetables, we can and do eat them raw. But raw meat? No way Jose. We don't have the gut for it, we don't have the stomach acid concentrations to kill the bacteria and it tastes disgusting. I think the paleo argument is that we evolved eating cooked meat (read processed food). Makes you wonder.

 

[elapid]

Some interesting arguments and information here. While protein requirements in general and specifically for athletes are the source of frequent disagreement, the majority of nutritionalists recommend a 20-20-60 distribution of protein, fat and carbohydrates. I also think there must be person-to-person differences because I know I put on weight with a diet consisting of less than 20% protein, while others do well on a high carbohydrate and/or high fat diet.

While humans can get their protein from nearly any source, one factor that has not been mentioned is bioavailability. Bioavailability measures the efficiency of how much of what is ingested is actually used for its intended purpose. Protein from fruit and vegetable sources is approximately 20-60% bioavailable, 75% for meat and fish, around 90% for milk, 94% for eggs (chicken), and 96% for whey protein. So you want a highly bioavailable protein source during and immediately after a ride, particularly a hard ride where protein is important for muscle repair and recovery. Personally, I will eat a hard boiled egg during a ride and drink a chocolate flavoured milk with added whey protein immediately after a hard ride or interval session. Note that the intention of this is to aide recovery from a hard ride or exercise session, it is not to supplement an otherwise deficient diet. I chose these protein sources because of their bioavailability and personal preference for taste.

I also eat a normal meal (for me) of vegetables (all colours) and a meat source (fish 3-4 times per week, chicken 1-2 times per week, and red meat 1-3 times per week) within 2 hours of a hard exercise session.

 

[Archibald]

.... We are the only creature to cook it's food./QUOTE]

Just expanding on that comment, we are the only "carnivore" that cooks its MEAT. That is. in order for us to eat it, we need to process it in a very particular way, a way that no other carnivore on earth does. For the most part we don't have to cook vegetables, we can and do eat them raw. But raw meat? No way Jose. We don't have the gut for it, we don't have the stomach acid concentrations to kill the bacteria and it tastes disgusting. I think the paleo argument is that we evolved eating cooked meat (read processed food). Makes you wonder.

sashimi?
raw liver is also a delicacy in some countries (certain type of liver, I just can't remember which, but I have had it)

but yes, somewhere between creating the spear and fire, our meat became to be cooked before eaten...