Pulling a Wiggins

[Nicko.]

Sprung Mass, bro.

The larger the ratio of sprung weight to unsprung weight, the less the body and vehicle occupants are affected by bumps, dips, and other surface imperfections such as small bridges.

However, a large sprung weight to unsprung weight ratio can also be deleterious to vehicle control. [CITATION NEEDED]

That's always been the P-R tradeoff. The 'softer' the suspension, the less the control, but the greater the gain from sprung weight - i.e. the rider.

In short biggish units with big watts but excellent bike handling skills will theoretically be favoured.

That's the reason you don't just tack weights on - not because it doesn't help with the dips, but because it's uncontrolled ('dumb') sprung mass that will be "deletrious to vehicle control".

Whereas a riders big fat a*** is directly controlled by the rider. Which is not to say Jon Brower Minnoch would have been a contender.

Why don't you go ahead and fill in the missing reference in your Wiki-link?

Cyclist change tire size and pressure according to surface and weight.

"Suspension" stiffness, mass, inertia, natural frequency - it all converges to similar "ride" properties by bike geometry and tire choices combined with the art of knowing when to stop pumping...

 

[martinvickers]

Why don't you go ahead and fill in the missing reference in your Wiki-link?

Cyclist change tire size and pressure according to surface and weight.

"Suspension" stiffness, mass, inertia, natural frequency - it all converges to similar "ride" properties by bike geometry and tire choices combined with the art of knowing when to stop pumping...

The original point raised was why would a rider gain weight for PR. no more, and no less.

Indeed, one poster specifically stated that "Sean Kelly didn't look too heavy".

Which was odd, because we then got a direct quote from Sean Kelly himself, saying you needed to be bit heavier!

Then someone else brought 'the physics' in to argue against my rather tongue in cheek mind experiment of trying to imagine an elephant bouncing all over the place because of a bit of pave, and we were greeted with the first physics lesson.

So I introduced a little bit of physics myself. Just a little, mind. A-level only gets you so far, and I know my limits

Now if you want to argue that the physics is incorrect, feel free to explain why. No-one would suggest tyre pressure and suspension are not important - hey, google "Paris Roubaix" and "suspension" and enjoy yourself on the articles! I've certainly never suggested it - but the fact remains that sprung weight/unsprung weight is an important factor in evening out the ride, bike control and performance. A fact at least intuited by such naive riders as Sean Kelly and, with his quintana quip, Fabian Cancellara.

In other words there's a tradeoff between them, and a slightly heavier rider (sprung weight/mass) can play into that. Obviously too heavy a rider, and other factors take over - not the least of which is endurance, frankly.

 

[Benotti69]

Kelly was a hard man, more than a big heavy cobbles rider.

Power is what wins PR.

 

[martinvickers]

Kelly was a hard man, more than a big heavy cobbles rider.

Power is what wins PR.

Who's denying that? The point was raised, why specifically would a rider gain weight for Paris Roubaix (as opposed to the normal byproducts of an attempt to increase power). The point was answered, that's all. And King Kelly agrees, which probably tells you something. I'd say if any man alive made the calculation, it was probably Sean.

No-one's suggesting Jon Brower Minnoch's thinking of trying the cobbles. It's a factor, no more, but no less.

 

[Benotti69]

Kelly didn't even gain much weight over the winter and followed a strict diet that Garibaldy insisted his riders follow.

That Kelly would put on weight for 1 race is laughable.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Despite the fact that Kelly himself is saying it?

 

[Benotti69]

Despite the fact that Kelly himself is saying it?

Can you show what weight Kelly was as a pro?

Hinault another guy who had power but was not big. Merckx another who had power but not the size of a Canc/Boonen.

Wiggins and Froome both showed their power abilities. Powering over cobbles smoothly in a big gear needs power, not necessarily bulk or weight. Both in the right conditions might podium a PR.

VanSummeran hardly a heavy guy. Tall yes, but not heavy.

 

[DirtyWorks]

That's always been the P-R tradeoff. The 'softer' the suspension, the less the control, but the greater the gain from sprung weight - i.e. the rider..

If we define "softer" as a bigger tire run at lower pressures, then I absolutely agree. You can't really run a big balloon of a tire at P-R. The speeds are too high outside the worst cobbled sectors.

I have more control, at higher speeds with suspension. Keep in mind the tires are pretty hard because theoretical suspension is absorbing the uneven surfaces.

P-R is special stuff. It is all about being able to lay down the power over those cobbles and keep laying it down despite the beating you are taking on top of very special bike handling skills, on top of that totally random luck. It's why races like it are so exciting.

Wiggins has displayed the power to be in the final selection. Does he have the other stuff that is *required* to get him to the velodrome?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Can you show what weight Kelly was as a pro?

Hinault another guy who had power but was not big. Merckx another who had power but not the size of a Canc/Boonen.

Wiggins and Froome both showed their power abilities. Powering over cobbles smoothly in a big gear needs power, not necessarily bulk or weight. Both in the right conditions might podium a PR.

VanSummeran hardly a heavy guy. Tall yes, but not heavy.

With all due respect, I'm going to go with Sean Kelly on this one, not you. Wiggins gaining weight to race P-R seems legit. That said, this is all relative as they are pro-cyclists, so even 'heavy' they are still stick thin. Stick Greipel next to someone normal and even he looks small. Anyway as I pointed out his poor technical ability is going to hamper him. Not sure how any of this is relevant to doping mind.

 

[martinvickers]

If we define "softer" as a bigger tire run at lower pressures, then I absolutely agree. You can't really run a big balloon of a tire at P-R. The speeds are too high outside the worst cobbled sectors.

I have more control, at higher speeds with suspension. Keep in mind the tires are pretty hard because theoretical suspension is absorbing the uneven surfaces.

P-R is special stuff. It is all about being able to lay down the power over those cobbles and keep laying it down despite the beating you are taking on top of very special bike handling skills, on top of that totally random luck. It's why races like it are so exciting.

Wiggins has displayed the power to be in the final selection. Does he have the other stuff that is *required* to get him to the velodrome?

I doubt it very much, personally. But if by mad chance he got there with somebody, I fancy he might win, just on track experience.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

That Kelly would put on weight for 1 race is laughable.

I don't often find myself agreeing with you, but I do here.

A rider can change shape for a season depending on their objectives e.g. skeletal Tour Wiggo vs track Wiggo / current Wiggo or Cancellara (much thinner when supporting A Schleck in the Tour than in his terminator ITT build).

But over the course of a few weeks, and Kelly raced a lot throughout the season if memory serves, the only way you can put on an appreciable amount of weight is to get fatter. There are some benefits to output from riding on an unrestricted diet (*) vs riding on a diet to maintain very low body fat, but I doubt this would offset the downsides of simply carrying extra weight via couple of "spare tyres".

(*) A common technique for lightweight rowers is to diet down to a kilo or two below the weight limit (if they can actually get that low - some can't) and then go mad food-wise to get up to the limit just in time for competition. Anecdotally, all my best rowing performances came in the immediate post lightweight phase (2 or 3 weeks) when I was attempting to eat my bodyweight in junk food each day.

 

[Afrank]

I think the goal of putting on weight isn't so much putting on weight in order to be stable over the cobbles and not bounce around, but more put on the weight in the form of muscle in order to increase the power he can produce over the cobbles.

Of course that brings up holes in what he has said and done in the past with becoming the best TTer in the world while super thin. But that's probably a topic better suited to another discussion.

 

[simoni]

Is fighting for position (you have to assume that you won't have much of a team in the latter stages of PR) and the strong possibility of dealing with cross winds whilst on your own also relevant here?

 

[Afrank]

Fight for position definitely, especially heading into the hardest cobble sections.

Crosswinds probably not as much, the cobbles will effect the race more then wind will. But there's always the chance wind can effect any race.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Wigans is gaining weight for PR because he is a bone idle ****er.

 

[BYOP88]

What happens if it rains? We know he doesn't like his *fashionable haircut* getting ruined, will he not start/abandon.


*That's the real reason he quit the Giro last year.

 

[Benotti69]

With all due respect, I'm going to go with Sean Kelly on this one, not you. Wiggins gaining weight to race P-R seems legit. That said, this is all relative as they are pro-cyclists, so even 'heavy' they are still stick thin. Stick Greipel next to someone normal and even he looks small. Anyway as I pointed out his poor technical ability is going to hamper him. Not sure how any of this is relevant to doping mind.

Reading helps. I never disputed anything Kelly said. What i said was that is was possible for riders not like Canc/Boonen who are giants in the peloton to win PR.

Kelly, Hinault and a good few GT winners, which Canc/Boonen do not fit have won PR.

Kelly was a powerful rider who was a hard as nails. He was not heavy. He did not carry any excess weight for races like PR.

Wiggins is not a PR rider, it takes a type of mentality to win PR and Wiggins hasn't got that for PR. Doesn't matter how much muscle weight he puts on.

 

[martinvickers]

Reading helps. I never disputed anything Kelly said. What i said was that is was possible for riders not like Canc/Boonen who are giants in the peloton to win PR.

Kelly, Hinault and a good few GT winners, which Canc/Boonen do not fit have won PR.

Kelly was a powerful rider who was a hard as nails. He was not heavy. He did not carry any excess weight for races like PR.

Wiggins is not a PR rider, it takes a type of mentality to win PR and Wiggins hasn't got that for PR. Doesn't matter how much muscle weight he puts on.

Well, if you'd just said "hell, wiggins needs a lot more than just weight - he doesn't have the guts or the bike handling" - i don't see how anyone could really have argued with you. Although arguably it would then belong in PRR rather than the Clinic!

There's a bit of a difference between "weight's not enough" and "weight's irrelevant/a red herring/ a cover"

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I was looking for VO2max mentions in relation to Sky after Fran Millar tweeted they never use it. And saw something that quite frankly stumped me.

27th September, 2012, we get this tidbit from JV about who coached Wiggins in 2009:

Hey JV, a question if I may?

Where did Brad train for the 2009 Tour, and who trained him?

he trained in Girona and Manchester, mainly. He was coached by Rod Ellingworth (sp?)

But a year prior, 2nd July, 2011, we have the following snippet from an interview:

When I did come to Sky, Rod Ellingworth was designated to coach me, which I just said “Yeah, okay.” But I didn’t have the faith in Rod’s coaching. It wasn’t anything to do with him but I didn’t know him. I don’t think he had that rapport with me. I was very good at telling him what he wanted to hear. I was good at convincing him that I needed to do this or that even if it wasn’t the best thing for me.

http://www.cyclesportmag.com/news-and-comment/wiggins-and-sky-a-different-route-to-the-tour/

So the guy who the year before coached you to 4th place at the Tour is someone with whom you have no rapport? Someone you don't know? Someone in whom you have no faith in their coaching?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

I was looking for VO2max mentions in relation to Sky after Fran Millar tweeted they never use it. And saw something that quite frankly stumped me.

27th September, 2012, we get this tidbit from JV about who coached Wiggins in 2009:



But a year prior, 2nd July, 2011, we have the following snippet from an interview:



So the guy who the year before coached you to 4th place at the Tour is someone with whom you have no rapport? Someone you don't know? Someone in whom you have no faith in their coaching?

And yet from the same article.

Then I got off the track after Beijing [2008 Olympics] and I still think that 2009 was a bit of a fluke in that I certainly didn’t have the level of planning and preparation for that Tour de France as I’ve had for this year. I mean it’s two contrasting years. I mean the stories that came out in 2009, losing weight, all that. A lot of it was just making it up as I went along really. Taking it day after day. It made a good story but the detail and the fine planning was nothing compared to what I am doing now. I lost weight, yes, but now I’m being weighed on a daily basis. Everything is monitored.

Garmin, bless them, was nothing like that at all. JV [Jonathan Vaughters] took a lot of credit for transforming me but I hardly spoke to JV that year. It was just a great performance.

 

[nomapnocompass]

All credit to him then for being able to come 4th in one of the most doped Tours in recent memory despite no proper preparation. You'd almost think he had other help.

The criticism of Garmin also highlights his own insecurities about his own level of performance. Something that also came to light when Froome outclassed him in the 2012 Tour.

 

[SundayRider]

And yet from the same article.

Usual Wiggins contradictory rubbish.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Reading helps. I never disputed anything Kelly said. What i said was that is was possible for riders not like Canc/Boonen who are giants in the peloton to win PR.

Kelly, Hinault and a good few GT winners, which Canc/Boonen do not fit have won PR.

Kelly was a powerful rider who was a hard as nails. He was not heavy. He did not carry any excess weight for races like PR.

Wiggins is not a PR rider, it takes a type of mentality to win PR and Wiggins hasn't got that for PR. Doesn't matter how much muscle weight he puts on.

I agree, he lacks the mentality, tactical nous and technical ability to win P-R. But he's not even the team leader as I understand, and will be riding for Thomas or Stannard.

 

[Sjoerdeman]

What happens if it rains? We know he doesn't like his *fashionable haircut* getting ruined, will he not start/abandon.


*That's the real reason he quit the Giro last year.

Maybe Brailsford should tell him that it would make a great photo opportunity.
That it will make him look like the tough guy he really is.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

The criticism of Garmin also highlights his own insecurities about his own level of performance. Something that also came to light when Froome outclassed him in the 2012 Tour.

If only Froome hadn't had his backside kicked round France by Wiggo in the TTs then he might have more clearly outclassed him!