Punishments for Teams, Directors, Sponsors?

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Jul 11, 2010
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ultimobici said:
I think you're missing my point.
I didn't. I've been doing more than a bit of reading on the issue as well have a considerable amount of experience in corporate culture. Change happens from the top down - simply because that's the direction the money flows.

Kicking the riders in the balls for the last couple decades hasn't really changed much. And if the sponsors retreat, oh well. I'd rather race a clean amateur crit down the street than watch another dirty grand tour that you can wring dope out of like a wet dishrag.

I've lost all respect for pro cycling. I'd compare it to Mexican wrestling, but I wouldn't want to tarnish Mexican wrestling's reputation.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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AnythingButKestrel said:
I didn't. I've been doing more than a bit of reading on the issue as well have a considerable amount of experience in corporate culture. Change happens from the top down - simply because that's the direction the money flows.

Kicking the riders in the balls for the last couple decades hasn't really changed much. And if the sponsors retreat, oh well. I'd rather race a clean amateur crit down the street than watch another dirty grand tour that you can wring dope out of like a wet dishrag.

I've lost all respect for pro cycling. I'd compare it to Mexican wrestling, but I wouldn't want to tarnish Mexican wrestling's reputation.
I agree that there has to be change from above. That is I think that the UCI needs to go, NOW.

Cycling has no more doping in it than any other sport IMO. The difference is that the governing body is ineffective in "managing" the situation. Other sports' controlling bodies are streets ahead in damage control. If you think the Athletics, Football, NFL, NHL or NBA are clean you're in cloud cuckoo land.

Imagine a new pro who gets popped in the Continental ranks, ho is then faced with 2 years in limbo then 2 years in the division below before he can get back to where he was before.

There has been this sort of treatment for some riders but it has been arbitrary and unofficial. If it was in the rules it would mean that the teams would be killing of their own talent pool.

It could be run in parallel with a 3 positives and the management is out. But how is a manager to know what his riders are up to at all times? Does your boss know what you get up to in your spare time?
 
May 26, 2010
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ultimobici said:
I agree that there has to be change from above. That is I think that the UCI needs to go, NOW.

Cycling has no more doping in it than any other sport IMO. The difference is that the governing body is ineffective in "managing" the situation. Other sports' controlling bodies are streets ahead in damage control. If you think the Athletics, Football, NFL, NHL or NBA are clean you're in cloud cuckoo land.

Imagine a new pro who gets popped in the Continental ranks, ho is then faced with 2 years in limbo then 2 years in the division below before he can get back to where he was before.

There has been this sort of treatment for some riders but it has been arbitrary and unofficial. If it was in the rules it would mean that the teams would be killing of their own talent pool.

It could be run in parallel with a 3 positives and the management is out. But how is a manager to know what his riders are up to at all times? Does your boss know what you get up to in your spare time?
when a person f*(ks up in a company, the company gets sued? The management are responsible for their riders.

Garmin supposedly run an internal testing program, why not all teams to monitor riders.

There can be structures devised to keep riders in line, say they only receive a % of their salary till the end of the season when no positives means they receive the remaining %. It means if they want to follow a program of doping they cant fund it with their wages, so have to borrow and a positive means they stay in debt along with a suspension.

there are definitely ways to make the decision to dope a lot harder than to stay clean.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
when a person f*(ks up in a company, the company gets sued? The management are responsible for their riders.

Garmin supposedly run an internal testing program, why not all teams to monitor riders.

There can be structures devised to keep riders in line, say they only receive a % of their salary till the end of the season when no positives means they receive the remaining %. It means if they want to follow a program of doping they cant fund it with their wages, so have to borrow and a positive means they stay in debt along with a suspension.

there are definitely ways to make the decision to dope a lot harder than to stay clean.
What sort of percentage are you suggesting? Many riders we see week in week out slogging up and down Europe's race circuit are not on salaries anywhere near the levels of an O'Grady, Wiggins or Breschel. There are many riders on Pro Tour teams who get the UCI minimum €24000 to €30000. That's less than earn and I couldn't give up any of it for a bond without suffering hardship.

I agree that teams should put in place mechanisms to ensure their riders are not straying. But I ask again what would you do if your employer exerted the sort of control over you that you are advocating to protect their interests? Most people would, I suspect, start looking for a new job or career even if they were innocent.

I am sorry but I have little or no sympathy for riders who in this day and age bleat the mantra "I was forced to dope". In the middle of the EPO era there were riders who said no, so it was possible then. Now 22 years on from Festina it is a much saner time. Now a rider who buckles under the pressure is simply an idiot and as such is not worthy of my sympathy. In the same way I can understand an older person having trouble giving up smoking, but I consider an 18 year old who smokes to be the epitome of idiocy.
 
Jul 11, 2010
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ultimobici said:
I agree that there has to be change from above. That is I think that the UCI needs to go, NOW.

Cycling has no more doping in it than any other sport IMO. The difference is that the governing body is ineffective in "managing" the situation. Other sports' controlling bodies are streets ahead in damage control. If you think the Athletics, Football, NFL, NHL or NBA are clean you're in cloud cuckoo land.

Imagine a new pro who gets popped in the Continental ranks, ho is then faced with 2 years in limbo then 2 years in the division below before he can get back to where he was before.

There has been this sort of treatment for some riders but it has been arbitrary and unofficial. If it was in the rules it would mean that the teams would be killing of their own talent pool.

It could be run in parallel with a 3 positives and the management is out. But how is a manager to know what his riders are up to at all times? Does your boss know what you get up to in your spare time?
I never compared cycling to other sports. I'm fully aware that most sports are crooked. I do not watch them. I ride, therefore I would like the money that I spend on cycling to NOT be funneled into lying, cheating, coercion, and drug trafficking. It is my money. I have the right to state my opinion to the industry regarding using my money to fund their institutionalized bulls***. I hold everyone accountable. Sponsors in particular. Don't tell me they don't know. That is complete garbage.

As far as my employer, I am contractually obligated not to dope among other requirements. If I do, my employer could suffer severe financial and legal consequences, so I'm hardly advocating a unique penalty system to cycling.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Riders are employee's hired to do their job, like most of us who work if we do our job and stay out of the shenanigans going on we won't lose our job if the night shift is stealing product at night out on the loading dock. The ones stealing or whatever wrongdoing and caught are fired and justly so. You can't stop the whole company from being able to work because of the few. No way will that ever go over. Sure the wrongdoers can ruin the whole company but under most cases its just them ending up on the unemployment line.

The director(s)/management might take a hit if they're are implicated, sometimes they are sometimes they're not.

Sponsor(s), well cut them out and the rest fall as well not to mention the sport in the long run as if a new sponsor wants to create a team they will look at the possible outcome and see its not worth it and instead sponsor any other sport instead.

ultimobici said:
I agree that there has to be change from above. That is I think that the UCI needs to go, NOW.
I've been saying that for years! It looked corrupt back in the 1990's and still does today. Till that head is chopped off it will still work the same way. While we're on it the Riders need a true Union, they currently have no full representation and are left out to hang in the air whenever anything goes wrong, and I'm not talking about doping but work related issues.
 
May 26, 2010
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ultimobici said:
What sort of percentage are you suggesting? Many riders we see week in week out slogging up and down Europe's race circuit are not on salaries anywhere near the levels of an O'Grady, Wiggins or Breschel. There are many riders on Pro Tour teams who get the UCI minimum €24000 to €30000. That's less than earn and I couldn't give up any of it for a bond without suffering hardship.

I agree that teams should put in place mechanisms to ensure their riders are not straying. But I ask again what would you do if your employer exerted the sort of control over you that you are advocating to protect their interests? Most people would, I suspect, start looking for a new job or career even if they were innocent.

I am sorry but I have little or no sympathy for riders who in this day and age bleat the mantra "I was forced to dope". In the middle of the EPO era there were riders who said no, so it was possible then. Now 22 years on from Festina it is a much saner time. Now a rider who buckles under the pressure is simply an idiot and as such is not worthy of my sympathy. In the same way I can understand an older person having trouble giving up smoking, but I consider an 18 year old who smokes to be the epitome of idiocy.

David Walsh tells an interesting story about a police force in England who were trying to crack a story on a case. They were trying to eliminate all the possible suspects and asked for a certain age group of men to come to a station and give a dna sample. They had over 5000 men volunteer their dna to remove them as a suspect in the case. he tells this story on a 'competitor radio' interview.

Now if cycling is riddled with doing as a rider who wants to ride clean, would you not do anyhting in your power to ride clean?

as for the % they should be able to live on a basic wage. In Italy, basic take home pay is €900.00 a month. During the racing season with riders concentrating on training and racing they should not need more than that. Anything they need can be bought and recovered with a receipt, but team provide all the nutrients and special dietary supplements. The rest is day to day living and unless guys want to live a lavish lifestyle it should be possible to live 8 months of the year on that. many live on basic wage for years and years. Remember the idea would be they get a lump sum at the end of the season.

Singapore has a 40% tax across the board where the government puts aside some of this money for a house purchase or some such big life purchase, so it is nothing new.

as for whether i would do it. yes if i was working in a situation that i had trained hard to arrive at and reached my goal of getting to be a worker and where my colleagues were using illegal techniques to achieve better working results than me. Why not. I am not losing money just agreeing to a certain payment plan that punishes those caught cheating and punishes them financially. If i am innocent i will play along with whatever can prove my innocence (within reason) and not cry foul and unfair.

There is no easy fix it solutions, but the more we can discuss and suggest ideas maybe we will find something is workable.

Bassons was the only french rider and a festina rider too who said no publicly to doping and was made unwelcome in the peloton and felt he had to leave the sport.

We still 10 years later rarely see a rider raise his head above the parapet and condemn the dopers.
 
May 26, 2010
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ElChingon said:
Riders are employee's hired to do their job, like most of us who work if we do our job and stay out of the shenanigans going on we won't lose our job if the night shift is stealing product at night out on the loading dock. The ones stealing or whatever wrongdoing and caught are fired and justly so. You can't stop the whole company from being able to work because of the few. No way will that ever go over. Sure the wrongdoers can ruin the whole company but under most cases its just them ending up on the unemployment line.

The director(s)/management might take a hit if they're are implicated, sometimes they are sometimes they're not.

Sponsor(s), well cut them out and the rest fall as well not to mention the sport in the long run as if a new sponsor wants to create a team they will look at the possible outcome and see its not worth it and instead sponsor any other sport instead.


I've been saying that for years! It looked corrupt back in the 1990's and still does today. Till that head is chopped off it will still work the same way. While we're on it the Riders need a true Union, they currently have no full representation and are left out to hang in the air whenever anything goes wrong, and I'm not talking about doping but work related issues.
for me this is the true road to change and until riders really organise this as a seperate enitity to change a sport that treats them as meat on 2 wheels it will not happen.
 
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