Pushing bigger gears!

[King Boonen]

So, I'm getting back into road riding more and more and it's really benefitting my mountain biking.

On the flats I can ride fine and keep up with the quick group in the club no problems. When the road goes up it all goes wrong.

So, I know that basically I need to be able to push bigger gears for a longer period of time, but I don't really know how much I should focus on this in my training.

One thing that I keep wondering about. If I'm sat down pushing a gear and decide to stand up to stretch my legs, the gear is suddenly much to light for me. I know it should feel lighter, but it's like going from 70% effort to 10% effort, or hard spinning a gear at 80-90 rpm and suddenly spinning out no problem.

Is this because I'm completely undertrained and my weight while standing is the deciding factor, rather than leg strength? Do I just need to be able to push bigger gears while seated?


If so what's the best way to go about this? Other than the "go out and climb in a gear thats just too big for you" method. I'm enjoying doing the sufferfest vids on the trainer, but is there anything else I should be doing.

Sorry if that's rambling, feel free to ask me questions to clarify anything.

 

[FrankDay]

So, I'm getting back into road riding more and more and it's really benefitting my mountain biking.

On the flats I can ride fine and keep up with the quick group in the club no problems. When the road goes up it all goes wrong.

So, I know that basically I need to be able to push bigger gears for a longer period of time, but I don't really know how much I should focus on this in my training.

One thing that I keep wondering about. If I'm sat down pushing a gear and decide to stand up to stretch my legs, the gear is suddenly much to light for me. I know it should feel lighter, but it's like going from 70% effort to 10% effort, or hard spinning a gear at 80-90 rpm and suddenly spinning out no problem.

Is this because I'm completely undertrained and my weight while standing is the deciding factor, rather than leg strength? Do I just need to be able to push bigger gears while seated?


If so what's the best way to go about this? Other than the "go out and climb in a gear thats just too big for you" method. I'm enjoying doing the sufferfest vids on the trainer, but is there anything else I should be doing.

Sorry if that's rambling, feel free to ask me questions to clarify anything.

When you are seated you probably "never" push harder than 40 lbs on the pedals on the downstroke. When you are out of the saddle, essentially all of your body weight is pushing down on the pedal. So, big difference. Out of the saddle is the way to go for "generating downward force" but the problem is doing this 5000 times an hour or so (depending on cadence). The muscles simply are not capable of 5000 deep knee bends an hour (and deep knee bends only lift half the body weight because both legs are involved).

If your average race lasts an hour or two hours or more you should be concentrating on developing your ability to maximize your efforts for that length of time (in the saddle) and not worry about short efforts out of the saddle, IMHO, because races are generally won or lost by your ability the last 10% of the race, not what you can do the first 90%.

 

[King Boonen]

Hi Frank,

Thanks. I should clarify something: I'm not and will never be a racer nor will I ever take part in a race. My main aim is cycling tourism, travelling to places and riding roads and routes both from famous races and just nice looking rides.

So, my main aim is to improve my climbing and endurance so I can, say, go out to Liege, ride LBL and know I'll make it in a day.

Or plan a three day ride and know I can cover a good distance so I can get out and see more.


So I'm guessing I should purely focus on in saddle work?

 

[FrankDay]

Hi Frank,

Thanks. I should clarify something: I'm not and will never be a racer nor will I ever take part in a race. My main aim is cycling tourism, travelling to places and riding roads and routes both from famous races and just nice looking rides.

So, my main aim is to improve my climbing and endurance so I can, say, go out to Liege, ride LBL and know I'll make it in a day.

Or plan a three day ride and know I can cover a good distance so I can get out and see more.


So I'm guessing I should purely focus on in saddle work?

If 99.9% of your time is in the saddle it seems that is where you should focus your training. Climbing isn't about getting out of the saddle but being geared properly for the climb.

 

[King Boonen]

It's the base power I think I need to work on. With that in mind am I better doing climbing type workouts, endurance workouts or general speed training?

 

[FrankDay]

It's the base power I think I need to work on. With that in mind am I better doing climbing type workouts, endurance workouts or general speed training?

base power is endurance power don't you think?

 

[King Boonen]

I don't really know Frank, hence the question. It certainly makes sense that it is, but as a very undertrained cyclist compared to most, maybe the best for me to build it is to do speed work? Or focus on increasing the gear I can push for short intervals?

 

[FrankDay]

I don't really know Frank, hence the question. It certainly makes sense that it is, but as a very undertrained cyclist compared to most, maybe the best for me to build it is to do speed work? Or focus on increasing the gear I can push for short intervals?

If you are new to running and want to train to run a marathon would it be better to do a lot of LSD, or go to the track and concentrate on 400 repeats (or hill repeats)? I know what I would do (and what I did). You can choose to do what you think best. My guess is there is little science to support either view.

edit: one more thing. I think you will find that the pros, who are not under trained, still spend the vast majority of their training time doing endurance work.

 

[King Boonen]

Frank, I'm not looking for science, a discussion about this or silly rhetorical questions. This is not a "debate and argue over the best training methods" thread. This is a "Help me improve" thread. I will do what people with more knowledge tell me works for what I want to achieve, whether they can give me a peer-reviewed research paper or not.

 

[Oldman]

As both a stage racer and one day rider I can say the emphasis is slightly different for the former. While you train cadence to a reasonable point, you need to interval train with a larger load to build power. The reality in competition is you should use the smaller gear until the race strategy and pace demands you bring out the big guns. If you don't train it; you won't have it. This is co-dependent with base fitness as well so there is never a one-size fits all training mode.
Additionally-long climbs demand that you do both. Too much seated climbing and you'll discover that indoor training didn't prepare you for the back and shoulder demand of controlling your bike during those efforts on the terrain. Even indoor training should have a dose of out of the saddle efforts and you could go to a larger gear for that effort to maintain a reasonable balance. I've trained 5 minute intervals in a larger gear (indoors) where each minute I exchanged between standing and sitting.
All of this helps the same issues on the road. When you get in faster races you will need bigger gears at some point, either to bridge a gap or to attack. It's good to train that so you know what duration you can apply the effort.

 

[Oldman]

If you are new to running and want to train to run a marathon would it be better to do a lot of LSD, or go to the track and concentrate on 400 repeats (or hill repeats)? I know what I would do (and what I did). You can choose to do what you think best. My guess is there is little science to support either view.

edit: one more thing. I think you will find that the pros, who are not under trained, still spend the vast majority of their training time doing endurance work.

This is an important point. Most Pros use early races to build power and speed because they know the race time is the most important component. They also have well developed personal history and know what they need to do when training either strengths or weaknesses. Doesn't help to be fast for 2 hours when the race lasts 3...

 

[King Boonen]

As both a stage racer and one day rider I can say the emphasis is slightly different for the former. While you train cadence to a reasonable point, you need to interval train with a larger load to build power. The reality in competition is you should use the smaller gear until the race strategy and pace demands you bring out the big guns. If you don't train it; you won't have it. This is co-dependent with base fitness as well so there is never a one-size fits all training mode.
Additionally-long climbs demand that you do both. Too much seated climbing and you'll discover that indoor training didn't prepare you for the back and shoulder demand of controlling your bike during those efforts on the terrain. Even indoor training should have a dose of out of the saddle efforts and you could go to a larger gear for that effort to maintain a reasonable balance. I've trained 5 minute intervals in a larger gear (indoors) where each minute I exchanged between standing and sitting.
All of this helps the same issues on the road. When you get in faster races you will need bigger gears at some point, either to bridge a gap or to attack. It's good to train that so you know what duration you can apply the effort.

Thanks, this seems to indicate I really need to be a bit more varied in my approach.

Remember, I'm not looking to race, but I'm guessing I could apply some racing principles to help me tackle big climbs late in my rides? Such as knowing what I can do, for how long and how hard I can push myself after a few hours riding.

 

[Oldman]

Thanks, this seems to indicate I really need to be a bit more varied in my approach.

Remember, I'm not looking to race, but I'm guessing I could apply some racing principles to help me tackle big climbs late in my rides? Such as knowing what I can do, for how long and how hard I can push myself after a few hours riding.

You can pick a few friendly battles with your friends to do the same thing. Honestly, endurance for endurance' sake is pretty boring so it's good to find a challenging hill and use it as an improvement test. Little things like that keep it fresh and you don't need a pack of wannabes risking your life to do it.

 

[FrankDay]

This is a "Help me improve" thread.

The most important thing you, as someone who is, admittedly, under trained, can do to get better is to spend more time in the saddle riding. It doesn't really matter what you do as long as you are spending more time doing it.

 

[King Boonen]

You can pick a few friendly battles with your friends to do the same thing. Honestly, endurance for endurance' sake is pretty boring so it's good to find a challenging hill and use it as an improvement test. Little things like that keep it fresh and you don't need a pack of wannabes risking your life to do it.

Hmmm... I tend to ride alone or with people who are a fair bit slower than me, maybe I need to find new riding buddies! I'm fairly ok with endurance for endurance sake as I'll have goals to aim for. I'll also be doing a lot of turbo work so it'll be a bit boring anyway... Out with the club I'm the slowest of the fast group so I'll try it with them.

The most important thing you, as someone who is, admittedly, under trained, can do to get better is to spend more time in the saddle riding. It doesn't really matter what you do as long as you are spending more time doing it.

Sounds good. What about junk miles? Is it easy for me to do lots of riding and not really push myself on?

 

[JayKosta]

...
Sounds good. What about junk miles? Is it easy for me to do lots of riding and not really push myself on?

------------------
That's why they are called 'junk' - little training value, but perhaps for pleasure.

To improve both strength and endurance, you need to push beyond the 'comfort level' to at least 'not pleasant, but doable', for whatever ride duration is available.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[FrankDay]

Sounds good. What about junk miles? Is it easy for me to do lots of riding and not really push myself on?

Junk miles are miles and worth a lot in a couple of ways. First, they are miles in the legs. Second, they allow recovery from the harder efforts you do do while still getting the miles in the legs. Most of the miles that the pros do I suspect that they (but not you) would classify them as junk miles. "junk miles" are nothing more than easy miles.

My experience that might best be where you are was when I was trying to become a runner. I had a year of running under my belt and one marathon. I wasn't very good and I was headed off to do an internship where I knew I wouldn't have very much free time to run. I decided the best thing I could do was to choose a place to live that was an easy jogging distance from work, that I could do regardless of how tired I was. I choose a place about 3 miles away, about 30 minutes at 10 min per mile, my pace at the time. That is about all I did, 3 miles twice a day averaging about 5 days a week. By the end of the year my pace had improved 1 minute per mile. All it was was consistent miles in the legs. This is recreation for you. Do whatever is fun for you but understand that if you want to improve you have to do it regularly and the more you do it the more you will improve.

 

[FrankDay]

------------------
That's why they are called 'junk' - little training value, but perhaps for pleasure.

To improve both strength and endurance, you need to push beyond the 'comfort level' to at least 'not pleasant, but doable', for whatever ride duration is available.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

I disagree. Junk miles are simply easy miles. There is a lot of value in those miles especially when compared to no miles or to hard miles that result in injury.

 

[Archibald]

Mr Boonen, just drop your cadence a touch in a higher gear.
If your average cadence is say, 85, then spend some time at 75-80 in one (or two) gears higher. This will build the strength you're after (if I'm reading your initial request right).
Your cadence will come back up naturally, but with stronger legs and you'll be able to push the higher gears your wanting to.
Be mindful not to over-gear

 

[King Boonen]

Mr Boonen, just drop your cadence a touch in a higher gear.
If your average cadence is say, 85, then spend some time at 75-80 in one (or two) gears higher. This will build the strength you're after (if I'm reading your initial request right).
Your cadence will come back up naturally, but with stronger legs and you'll be able to push the higher gears your wanting to.
Be mindful not to over-gear

Thought I should follow up. Basically I've been doing sufferfest videos and hammering myself. I've gone from using level 2 on my turbo and struggling to turn a big gear to doing 2 minute intervals in 50-12 on level 3!

On the road I've gone from struggling to push 34-28 up a lot of climbs to leaving it in the big ring and I'm now considering moving to an 11-25 or even 11-23 at the back (I only seem to need the 28 if it heads up towards and over 20%.)

I do think I need to focus more on the slower revs approach as most of the stuff I'm doing is at 90-120 and my legs are now getting used to it.

Thanks for the advice guys, it's really helped.