Quadafi's death.

Page 4 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Status
Not open for further replies.
The Hitch said:
I dont know what you mean by right and wrong. I never said it was either right or wrong, but rather that if people want to celebrate the death of a tyrant, i will support their right to do it, and I dont believe those of us who havent had these horrid experiences, should be looking down on them.

Happy to hear that.
I'm not looking down on them, nor do I wan't to take their right of free expression of oppinon away from them.
But as I said earlier, the basis on what you can even develope those feelings still disgusts me. With a strong conciousness of any kind of civilised morals you'd not even develope those feelings, I'm pretty sure of that.

Oh and just so I'm not misunderstood again: I am still looking down on Mrs. Merkel and her party. ;)

Still, the question about the "Barbaric view of justice" still stands for me.
Just because they have the right to celebrate and shouldn't be looked down on concerning their humanity still doesn't mean it's neither barbaric nor wrong to do so. If you talk about justice it's alway about "right or wrong", if it wasn't that way the term wouldn't make any sense.
 
Mar 10, 2009
286
0
0
TeamSkyFans said:
Why is it dumb, its my personal opinion.

I thought the scenes of Americans dancing and celebrating the wonderful victory of the free and rightous west over the evil Bin Laden were sickening and in bad taste. Im not going to upset all the American posters by reminding everyone to what extent America funded the Bin Laden family for many years.

Its worth bearing in mind, without going off on too much of a tangent, that a large proportion of the British people have a deep rooted suspicion on the American Government and the American Armed forces (why is it, all american reality shows, top chef, survivor etc all have to have a damned armed forces episode with the stars and stripes waving in the background). For many people like myself who believe that there was american, if not involvement, but severe misjudgement during 9/11 and the illegal war in iraq that followed, celebrating bin ladens death was in poor taste. This is no way a reflection of my opinion of the large amount of American people who are kind, peaceful, and sensible people. If the Americans really want to celebrate something, hold the celebrations until George W Bush dies. Supplied Saddam and Bin Laden with the weapons, started a war to boost their own beleagured economy and then celebrated when they killed the person they armed in the beginning (and I dont beleive OBL is dead)

The Libyan people celebrating the end of the dictorial regime that hoarded all their wealth and resources for fourty years I do not have an issue.

I think its impossible for any of us to put ourselves in the position of the Libyan people. If Tony Blair died tomorrow I would not celebrate, but, If Tony Blair had spent fourty years controlling everything, controlling our income, taking our money, and then was involved in a civil war where hundreds of our people got killed then maybe my opinion would change.


I respect your opinion, we all have a right to one. It is a misinformed opinion, but you have the right to it.
The reason those shows have a starts and stripes episode is simple. No matter the politics involved the people in vast majority in America, love and respect their troops, as it should be.

I will not go into the 9/11 conspiracy junk in this thread, but think of one thing. The amount of people involved to do such a cover up would be immense, and the fact remains the Pres. can't even get a BJ without it getting out, this conspiracy would not survive leaks.

The war in Iraq is not illegal.

I was boots on the ground in Baghdad, in '91, I have been to Afghanistan 3 times(alongside many of your SAS "chaps"), and Iraq once in this current war, I rejoined after 9/11. I was quite happy the day Bin Laden was killed, he did not deserve a trial, we do not try people in combat situations. I am happy the people of Libya won their war, as I said before I hope NATO goes and assists the people of Syria as well, and Iran.

I'm sorry I called your opinion dumb, I fought to let people have opinions, I just think it is misguided. We will have agree to disagree. That's the beauty of our two great countries.

Back to Warcraft, its Raid night!!
 
The Hitch said:
...If people want to celebrate the death of a tyrant, i will support their right to do it, and I dont believe those of us who havent had these horrid experiences, should be looking down on them.
I tend to agree with you Hitch, and don't find such a position hypocritical. It's not my way to celebrate another man's death. Be that Bin Laden, Timothy McVeigh, Westley Allen Dodd, or Qaddafi. But I don't feel comfortable saying that the people of Libya who lived through his oppressive ways should or shouldn't react in the way they see fit.
 
May 13, 2009
3,093
3
0
mikeNphilly said:
I was quite happy the day Bin Laden was killed, he did not deserve a trial, we do not try people in combat situations.

Except, it likely wasn't a combat situation. Not after they had taken out the guards. And it looks like Bin Laden was unarmed.

Apparently, it was a similar situation with Gaddafi. He was taken prisoner (probably already wounded) and then was killed, as far as I can tell (but of course, details are sketchy).

Don't get me wrong, I believe having both men dead is probably a net positive for humanity. But likely neither killing was covered by international law.
 
Jul 4, 2011
1,899
0
0
mikeNphilly said:
Our celebrations in the US were because, since we are in a war over terrorism, and the main leader of the terrorist was now dead, we celebrated. Should have painted him red, white and blue and drug him behind a tank for a bit, IMO.

I'm am quite happy for the people of Libya. I'm glad NATO helped them. Next steps should be Syria, Iran and North Korea.

I'm sorry, but this post is just beyond me.

Why only Syria, Iran and North Korea. How about Bahrain or Saudi Arabia? In what way is Bahrain different from Libya but for the fact that it is a US ally.

I would like you to read this article which I had posted earlier-

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/07/2011725145048574888.html

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/03/201131643831976772.html

Also invading North Korea will never happen. It would be dumb of NATO to go to the Chinese and Russian neighbourhood with their full army and defence forces.

Your post does make an important point and that is the almost 'warmongering' stance of the NATO towards political opponents.
 
Jul 4, 2011
1,899
0
0
Yes, but the reason may not be the same as other countries though and the fact is they aren't allies of the NATO.

Cuba is too close to home, I certainly wouldn't want an all out war in Myanmar or any of India's neighbouring countries. Then again, I wouldn't want a war anywhere.

Cuba also has strong diplomatic relations with most South American nations doesn't it. With the ever increasing influence of Brazil and their ever strengthening relations with Cuba, it wouldn't help diplomatically in any way (in my opinion) to attack Cuba.
 
mikeNphilly said:
Has to be one of the dumbest things you have ever wrote on this board. When my co-workers at work read this we basically we quite mad at your opinion(trying to be nice, and not type what I thought for real.)

And this has to be the dumbest thing you wrote (which is a real accompishment) on this board.

If anything, you should really be mad at those in America who financed Bin Laden for years against the Soviets, or provided Saddam with the chemical weapons he went on to use against the Curds. Or those who kept the Shah of Iran in power for decades against the popular will, just to make sure the oil wouldn't be nationalized, which begot Khomeini, which begot jihad, which begot Al Qaeda.

So you, and your colleagues, keep being mad in your extremely childish and idiotic way. These men were made in the USA. But go on.
 

oldborn

BANNED
May 14, 2010
1,115
0
0
mikeNphilly said:
Our celebrations in the US were because, since we are in a war over terrorism, and the main leader of the terrorist was now dead, we celebrated. Should have painted him red, white and blue and drug him behind a tank for a bit, IMO.

I'm am quite happy for the people of Libya. I'm glad NATO helped them. Next steps should be Syria, Iran and North Korea.

Why not Saudi Arabia, Belarus, Israel or Venezuela?;)
I mean The list of evil are long. You guys are in constant war since 18th century, you may call it war on terror or something else, but you need it every couple of years;)
I am just saying:eek:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
mikeNphilly said:
No matter the politics involved the people in vast majority in America, love and respect their troops, as it should be.

And this is the difference between the bulk of Americans, and the Bulk of Britons.

I do not know the statistics for the number of Americans who supported the war in Iraq and their troops but I imagine it is very high. Britain is almost the inverse. The number of Britains opposed to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and supportive of our troops is equally high. In America i beleive that an soldier on leave still wears a uniform and is probably greated on the street by people telling him what a great job he is doing. In Britian i have never seen a soldier in uniform outside of the careers stands trying to get people to sign up, and ive never seen people congratulating them. If anything they are likely to get barracked from people shouting at them to get out of Iraq.

I dont ever remember having a conversation with friends, family, collegues about our armed forces or what job they are doing. That is one of the fundemental differences in our two society's and why we will always have such differing opinions.

Fwiw, and back to the subject at hand, I think the Libya situation was handled brilliantly by the UN. Allow the Rebels to fight the war themselves and just offer tactical support to help them regain their country. Wether the celebrations in Libya were as much about Gadaffi being dead, or the fact that with him dead the war was effectively over and their country was free. Are they celebrating the former, or the latter? Very different situation to people celebrating the death of Bin Laden. One is celebrating death, the other celebrating freedom.

Oh, Im a pacifist, completely opposed to war in all forms. I do not wear a red poppy, but a white poppy, and get no end of abuse from old farts who claim that its only because of them that I dont speak German. Sometimes violence is needed to remove people from power, but it should be for just that reason, not for oil, not for land, not for money.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
mikeNphilly said:
The war in Iraq is not illegal.

It was based on Lies. Lies that there were weapons of mass destruction, lies that Saddam Hussien was a threat to the welfare and wellbeing of all Americans.

Its like the war on terror, what terror.. Most of the fear was caused by the American goverment instilling a mantra of fear in its people. The invasion of Afghanistan, why, because the Taliban were hiding a little old man with a beard in one of their many caves. A little old man who not so far back had been friends with the American government, whos friends had invested heavily in American industry. Suddely this little old man with a beard was a threat to the whole of mankind.

I have nothing personal against the troops that went out there. They were just doing their jobs. Some, like me, were opposed to the war anyway but went, some, sadly, were happy to be there and commited some pretty nasty crimes.

As a Brit is seems that Americans are never happier than when they are at War.. Whereas many people are happiest when we are at peace.
 
Jun 22, 2009
4,991
1
0
TeamSkyFans said:
And this is the difference between the bulk of Americans, and the Bulk of Britons......

I dont ever remember having a conversation with friends, family, collegues about our armed forces or what job they are doing. That is one of the fundemental differences in our two society's and why we will always have such differing opinions.

Sometimes violence is needed to remove people from power, but it should be for just that reason, not for oil, not for land, not for money.

Nail on head....there is indeed a very fundamentally different way in which Europeans and Americans think and feel about what their armed forces do, and the way in which the armed forces are profiled within society as a whole. You cannot watch tv, or walk a US street, or fly from a US airport without seeing men and women in uniform, and without hearing the role of the armed forces (in general) being glorified. In Europe (again, in general) the armed forces exist more on the periphery of society, men and women in uniform are not thrust in your face wherever you go, the military is more divorced from daily civilian life. Apart from the Brits, the general level of pomp and circumstance is also much lower.

This historic dichotomy possibly explains why Americans (in general, etc) are much more gung-ho about foreign military adventures than Europeans are. This is just one more aspect of what's wrong with the US's view of its role in the world. (imho, of course)
 
Jun 16, 2009
19,654
2
0
The Hitch said:
Would those people who ridiculed the celebration of Osama bin Ladens death, have the same thing to say to these people

http://www.bloomberg.com/photo/liby...ddafi-s-end-after-months-of-figh-/114585.html

I for one think they have every right to celebrate.

I dont see death as the ultimate punishment or ultimate defeat. There is a line you can cross and some people have crossed this line.

Their demise can be a joyous occasion for some of their victims, a symbol of a new hope, a new life, and I would not dare spoil the party for those who have suffered so.

It brings joy to my heart to see the child in the middle of the picture, celebrate a potential future for himself and his loved once.

Far more important and worthy of joyous release, than the traditional reasons for celebration these days - winning a football match.

I have made the point to try to avoid Political debate in recent times on this forum because of firstly sometimes I lack the knowledge to discuss it properley and secondly I have some very contrasting views to what others may say or think but I thought I would join in.

Unfortunately I find it hard to believe that Libya will find peace from today. He had plenty of supporters and continues to. I don't believe it will be too much longer that the new government will have threats to its power. I also think that with libya's history that another dictator will enter and completely corrupt the place again.

With the Bin Laden killings, I never agreed with dancing in the street about it. America is a much different place than Libya. Americans weren't directly threatened in the way the Libyans have been by Gaddhafi. In my opinion, persecuting was really going to be the only solution. Trying to put him on trial would of caused his radical supporters to do all sorts of things and in my opinion would of caused further mayhem for Libya and for the western world. Libyans do have the right to be satisfied that he can't do any further crime to them and I feel have more right to be dancing in the street about his death than Americans but even so I doubt anything much will change with widespread corruption.

Clearly showing the corpse in newspapers and on news tv bulletins around the world is an attempt to satisfy the conspiracy theorists who will come up with new twisted theories about anything they can. not dissimilar to Bin Laden.
 
Jul 4, 2011
1,899
0
0
Couple of very serious issues that will always remain unanswered.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/30/arming-libya-rebels-america-warned

Article published 30th March

February's UN security council resolution 1970 on the arms embargo states that all member states must prevent the supply to the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya – the Libyan nation – of arms including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment and spare parts. The embargo also relates to the provision of technical assistance, training or financial and bans the provision of mercenaries.

It includes an exemption for "other sales or supply of arms and related material, or provision of assistance or personnel, as approved in advance by the committee". The committee was established to oversee the implementation of the embargo and is chaired by José Filipe Moraes Cabral, Portugal's ambassador to the UN.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/nato-vexed-as-french-arm-libyan-rebels-20110630-1gt0r.html

Article published 1st July

NATO is reviewing its military campaign in Libya after France admitted arming rebel fighters in apparent defiance of the United Nations mandate.

The revelation surprised officials in NATO's headquarters in Brussels and raised awkward questions about whether the French had broken international law - UN resolution 1973 allows NATO nations to protect civilians in Libya, but appears to stop short of permitting the provision of weapons.

NATO has consistently said it would not arm rebel commanders, saying it was beyond its remit. But that pledge came under scrutiny after military chiefs in Paris confirmed that French planes had dropped machineguns, rocket-propelled grenades and anti-tank missiles to rebels in the western Nafusa mountains.

It appears France did not inform any of its NATO allies about the weapons drop, nor NATO headquarters where officials were seeking clarification yesterday from Paris about exactly what it had done and why.

Here is exactly what the resolution 1973 says on the arms embargo

13 Decides that paragraph 11 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall be replaced by
the following paragraph : “Calls upon all Member States, in particular States of the
region, acting nationally or through regional organisations or arrangements, in order
to ensure strict implementation of the arms embargo established by paragraphs 9 and
10 of resolution 1970 (2011), to inspect in their territory, including seaports and
airports, and on the high seas, vessels and aircraft bound to or from the Libyan Arab
Jamahiriya, if the State concerned has information that provides reasonable grounds
to believe that the cargo contains items the supply, sale, transfer or export of which
is prohibited by paragraphs 9 or 10 of resolution 1970 (2011) as modified by this
resolution, including the provision of armed mercenary personnel, calls upon all
flag States of such vessels and aircraft to cooperate with such inspections and
authorises Member States to use all measures commensurate to the specific
circumstances to carry out such inspections"

14 Requests Member States which are taking action under paragraph 13
above on the high seas to coordinate closely with each other and the Secretary-
General and further requests the States concerned to inform the Secretary-General
and the Committee established pursuant to paragraph 24 of resolution 1970 (2011)
(“the Committee”) immediately of measures taken in the exercise of the authority
conferred by paragraph 13 above.

15 Requires any Member State whether acting nationally or through regional
organisations or arrangements, when it undertakes an inspection pursuant to
paragraph 13 above, to submit promptly an initial written report to the Committee
containing, in particular, explanation of the grounds for the inspection, the results of
such inspection, and whether or not cooperation was provided, and, if prohibited
items for transfer are found, further requires such Member States to submit to the
Committee, at a later stage, a subsequent written report containing relevant details
on the inspection, seizure, and disposal, and relevant details of the transfer,
including a description of the items, their origin and intended destination, if this
information is not in the initial report;

16. Deplores the continuing flows of mercenaries into the Libyan Arab
Jamahiriya and calls upon all Member States to comply strictly with their
obligations under paragraph 9 of resolution 1970 (2011) to prevent the provision of
armed mercenary personnel to the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya

It is important to note that this resolution was passed with 5 abtentions including two permanent members of the UNSC- Russia and China and other very iimportant countries India, Brazil and Germany. This was the resolution which enforced the no fly zone.

And here is resolution 1970

Decides that all Member States shall immediately take the necessary
measures to prevent the direct or indirect supply, sale or transfer to the Libyan Arab
Jamahiriya, from or through their territories or by their nationals, or using their flag
vessels or aircraft, of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and
ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare
parts for the aforementioned, and technical assistance, training, financial or other
assistance, related to military activities or the provision, maintenance or use of any
arms and related materiel, including the provision of armed mercenary personnel
whether or not originating in their territories, and decides further that this measure
shall not apply to:

(a) Supplies of non-lethal military equipment intended solely for
humanitarian or protective use, and related technical assistance or training, as
approved in advance by the Committee established pursuant to paragraph 24 below;

(b) Protective clothing, including flak jackets and military helmets,
temporarily exported to the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya by United Nations personnel,
representatives of the media and humanitarian and development workers and
associated personnel, for their personal use only; or

(c) Other sales or supply of arms and related materiel, or provision of
assistance or personnel, as approved in advance by the Committee;

So, clearly France has broken international law by failing to adhere to both resolutions 1970 and 1973. It clearly requires more than just a statement implying that the NATO is vexed considering that France were one of three permanent members to vote in favour of both resolutions.

Edit: The resolution bits are only about the arms embargo for Libya, not the whole resolution.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Amsterhammer said:
Apart from the Brits, the general level of pomp and circumstance is also much lower.

And even in Britain, with the exception of the November Rememberance day parade, most of britains pomp is either for the tourists (trooping of the colour, queens birthday etc), or for entertainment (royal tournament etc).

I mean come on, this is the public face of britains armies. :D

58B_27L_24_BEEFEATER_243x312.jpg

Europe%20Sept%200241_resize.jpg_w540.jpg

The terrorists must be well scared of them. :D

I think also theres a certain class difference between britain and america in who joins the armed forces. From what I have seen of american armed forces for many it is a way out of deprived areas, or a career opportunity for those who may not have suceeded academically. Ive seen films of recruiters targetting areas of low income etc. In britain, whereas during conscription it was very much the working classes that were on the front line, the farmers, the minors, the factory workers, nowadays the armed forces are very much a middle class occupation. Im working class, and in my entire life I can name one person who is in the armed forces, someone I went to school with over 20 years ago. Whereas everyone in America probably knows someone in the forces.
 
Mar 10, 2009
286
0
0
rhubroma said:
And this has to be the dumbest thing you wrote (which is a real accompishment) on this board.

If anything, you should really be mad at those in America who financed Bin Laden for years against the Soviets, or provided Saddam with the chemical weapons he went on to use against the Curds. Or those who kept the Shah of Iran in power for decades against the popular will, just to make sure the oil wouldn't be nationalized, which begot Khomeini, which begot jihad, which begot Al Qaeda.

So you, and your colleagues, keep being mad in your extremely childish and idiotic way. These men were made in the USA. But go on.

I know their histories quiet well, but thanks for the simple history lesson.
 
Jul 4, 2011
1,899
0
0
mikeNphilly said:
I know their histories quiet well, but thanks for the simple history lesson.

You're contradicting yourself here. TSF made a similar point and you made your prior post.

Anyway, I think the situation is much much larger than petty back and forths and the real issues have fallen behind the celebrating of the death of a man, which compared to the challenges ahead is inconsequential.

Interesting read about the AU's role in the movement
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/09/2011923133813226611.html

Can't blame the AU as Gaddafi was one of the most, if not the single most, influential leaders of the AU and increased the AU's role in international affairs.

Gaddafi and his contributions- good and bad

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15392189

But as in true BBC style, it's a bit biased.

Also in the past decade, he was implementing one of the most ambitious projects to try and make Libya water independent.

http://www.a-w-i-p.com/index.php/2011/04/15/libya-s-great-man-made-river

Most of you may not share this view, but all opinions are valuable, especially a learned one.

Edit: AU invites new Libyan Leaders to 'Take seat'
 
May 13, 2009
3,093
3
0
ramjambunath said:
Couple of very serious issues that will always remain unanswered.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/30/arming-libya-rebels-america-warned

Article published 30th March



http://www.smh.com.au/world/nato-vexed-as-french-arm-libyan-rebels-20110630-1gt0r.html

Article published 1st July





Here is exactly what the resolution 1973 says on the arms embargo



It is important to note that this resolution was passed with 5 abtentions including two permanent members of the UNSC- Russia and China and other very iimportant countries India, Brazil and Germany. This was the resolution which enforced the no fly zone.

And here is resolution 1970



So, clearly France has broken international law by failing to adhere to both resolutions 1970 and 1973. It clearly requires more than just a statement implying that the NATO is vexed considering that France were one of three permanent members to vote in favour of both resolutions.

Edit: The resolution bits are only about the arms embargo for Libya, not the whole resolution.


I felt the resolutions were broken before the ink was dry. It was described as a 'no fly zone', but in reality, NATO became the airforce of the rebels.

I don't say it was a mistake to support the rebels. But I think it was wrong to propose one thing in the UN resolution and then turn around to do a different thing. Clearly, had it been spelled out what NATO really intended to do, then neither the Arab league nor the AU had supported it. Likely China and/or Russia would have veto'd it entirely. In the long run, it makes those involved look like fools. Why, for instance, should the Palestinians trust half of the 'mideast quartet' after this? It's just not productive politics.
 
Jul 4, 2011
1,899
0
0
Yes, that's true but the fact is that there is no documentary evidence of NATO going against the resolution though it was widely acknowledged in most parts of the world. Also NATO was operating there under the pretence of humanitarian causes. The French on the other hand just supplied a cache of weapons which was clearly docuented.

That's the reason that China and Russia vetoed similar resolutions against Syria.

Palestine at the moment has one spokesman, I believe, only themselves. People speak of human rights in Libya and conveniently forget regions like Palestine. But the Egyptian revolution may actually help the Palestinian cause in the long run considering Hosni Mubarak was always muted on the topic of Palestine and I am sure just like the Christians and the Jews and the Hindus, the Muslims will also have an interest in the well being of their fellow Muslims (I am not being offensive, just saying that it is a universal truth).
 
mikeNphilly said:
I know their histories quiet well, but thanks for the simple history lesson.

Well if you knew the histories so well you would not go about stupidly extolling the virtues of the US military machine.

America, like every empire in the history of the world, has gone about deploying its military, not in the interests of real justice, but for those in insuring its own material well being and ideological position.

The things we did in South Asia, Central America and in the Middle East have been deplorable and, in many ways no less criminal, than what the Soviet regime had done, or the British Empire in the provinces, or the Conquistadores in South America before that.

In the XIX century the US military was responsible for enforcing the imperialist Monroe Doctrine (1823), which basically laid claim to trade rights over the entire Western Hemisphere and, of course, confiscated the lands of the natives from coast to coast. In fact under the ideology of Manifest Destiny, US wars of repression decimated the last of the Far West natives. Buffalo, upon which the native Americans' existence depended, their habitat, there own religion, had undergone the same fate: annihilation. The same US armed force was responsible for massacres of natives like that of Wounded Knee, which was a heinous and vile act of mass murder.

Subsequently the Monroe Doctrine was backed by the expansionist "Open Door Politics," when the Americans began to look at the Pacific islands and the imense Asian market with the same greedy eyes, that was turned upon the countries of Latin America. Open Door Politics rested upon two pillars, those of economic and military exapansion: Japan (1853-54), Commander Perry's expedition to force Japan to open its markets; Nicaragua (1853-54 and 94), military sent in defense of American interests; Argentina (1853-54), US marines arrive at Buenos Aires to protect American interests; Uraguay (1855), military sent in defense of American interests; Portugese Angola (1860); military sent in defense of American interests.

The US did likewise in Cuba during the Spanish-American war. The massacres were a linear phenomenon across the century: in Mexico (1846), Wounded Knee (1890), Cuba (1898), the awful slaughter of 4000 soldiers at Santa Mesa in the Philippines (1899). While in 1893 the US invaded the Hawaian Islands to support a provisory government under the authority of Stanford D. Bole. Robert Wilcox an anti-imperialist rebelion leader tried to liberate Hawai from the American government, however without success.

Contemporary senators, Albert J. Beveridge of Indiana, and Henry Cabot Lodge fo Massachuesetts, summed up America's imperialist program rather nicely. The former stating: "America's industry and soil produces more than the American people can consume. Global commerce must and will be ours." The latter saying: The great nations are rapidly englobing all the deserted places of the earth. It is a movement for civilization and for the advancement of race."

The US government, at the same time, was successful in breaking the railroad union and was able to supress the Pullman Strike and throw Debs in prison. Yet to have suffocated the native Americans' resitance, those of the farmers and workers, wasn't enough to put an end to the economic depression that began in 1893. The bosses of American industry had, for some time, as we have seen, begun to look abroad to find new markets to exploit and new enemies against which to levy the nation's military forces to protect their interests.

A new American economic world order was thus emerging by the brute force and coercion of US bellicose power which found justifications in the thoughts of American leaders at the time such as the same Indiana Senator Albert J. Beveridge: "For our part we shall never renounce the mission of our race, which has been placed under the guidance of God to take care of the entire civilized world. The Philippines constitute for us a base at the threshold of the whole of Asia."

During WWII we used something called "sticky fire" at Royan, France, which burns everything in sight. During Vietnam it was called napalm. The war was already won, but the now American empire, before it was officially over, needed to test its muscles using new weapons on a defenseless population. According to a senate study on economic concentration, for every billion dollars spent during WWII, 400 million went to 10 large companies. This means that from that moment forward, for the arms industry, war itself should never be concluded. New arms need to be invented to satisfy new commissions. It has become increasingly clear that WWII was guided by economic interests more than moral and political ones. On August 6, 1945, 8:15 AM, at Hiroshima America dropped the first atomic bomb. President Truman had taken the decision to deploy the most recent American weapon on the civilian populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Why did we drop the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima? Truman said it was because Hiroshima was a military base. What an absurd affirmation. Of the 100,000 killed, quasi all were civilians! As the British scientist P.M.S. Blackett said in his book Fear, War and the Bomb, the use of the atom bomb was "the first large scale diplomatic operation of the Cold War against Russia," that and the fact that the US had simply invested too much money in developing it to not use it. America was overjoyed for the end of WWII, without knowing yet what the costs were. That of Hiroshima was an atrocity, we committed...stupefied civilians were roasted alive, there eyes removed from their orbits, limbs detached form their bodies, were dragged thorough the streets of their leveled houses under a radioactive fall-out. We bettered the cost effectiveness of mass extermination to an unimaginable possibility. The bomb was a warning to the Soviet Union to stay away from Japan and by now half the planet found itself under new management.

Now the military and the secret services would be deployed wherever American interests were at stake. The historian Arnold Toynbee has observed: "America was now the driving force behind a global anti-revolutionary movement in defense of its acquired interests...to sustain the rich against the poor." In China 1945-49, the US used soldiers of defeated Japan to fight Mao Tse-Tung, formerly an ally during the war against fascism. In Greece 1947-49 during the civil war, the US intervened along side of Greek neofascists to defeat the left, which had previously combated against the Germans. In the Philippines 1946-54, having returned to its old colony the US neutralized the Huk rebellion, a marxist peasant revolt lead by Luis Taruc, a former combatant of the anti-Japanese resistance. At Guatemala 1954 the CIA brought down the democratically elected government, guilty of having taken uncultivated land back from the United Fruit Company.

Later when the US supported the contras, it was responsible for the massacre of hundreds in El Salvador, to say nothing about My Lai in Vietnam. During the Cold War the superpowers were pitted against themselves and the ideologies became the driving force behind the arms race, while to conduct the campaign it was necessary a political and social repression on both sides.

More recent brutality has taken place in Iraq, where torture has been commonly practiced in the Abu Grahib prison.

I really think this patriotic culture in America of praising the armed forces for all the "righteousness" they spread around the world is a demonstration of just how stupid and ignorant many Americans are of their country's own history.

It's appalling and grotesque at once. The military, any military, is a best a necessary evil, at worst a means of oppression and imperialism. No more.
 
TeamSkyFans said:
And even in Britain, with the exception of the November Rememberance day parade, most of britains pomp is either for the tourists (trooping of the colour, queens birthday etc), or for entertainment (royal tournament etc).

I mean come on, this is the public face of britains armies. :D

58B_27L_24_BEEFEATER_243x312.jpg

Europe%20Sept%200241_resize.jpg_w540.jpg

The terrorists must be well scared of them. :D

I think also theres a certain class difference between britain and america in who joins the armed forces. From what I have seen of american armed forces for many it is a way out of deprived areas, or a career opportunity for those who may not have suceeded academically. Ive seen films of recruiters targetting areas of low income etc. In britain, whereas during conscription it was very much the working classes that were on the front line, the farmers, the minors, the factory workers, nowadays the armed forces are very much a middle class occupation. Im working class, and in my entire life I can name one person who is in the armed forces, someone I went to school with over 20 years ago. Whereas everyone in America probably knows someone in the forces.
actually no about everyone knowing someone. the folks at the higher income level don't. (a lot of Republican types). the draft made it much more level across the board. i was a draft eligible man in the last years of the Viet Nam war. you are correct about the career opportunity part though. nowadays they get the middle/lower income folks mostly. "all volunteer army" it has a 3 squares and a roof aspect to it now.i wish we could have them do something else. like build roads and bridges here.
 
Jul 4, 2011
1,899
0
0
The official NTC version of his death

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15397812
Acting Prime Minister Mahmoud Jibril said he had been shot in the head in an exchange between Gaddafi loyalists and National Transitional Council fighters.

He confirmed that Col Gaddafi, who had been taken alive, had died before reaching hospital.

"When the car was moving it was caught in crossfire between the revolutionaries and Gaddafi forces in which he was hit by a bullet in the head," he said, quoting from the report.

"The forensic doctor could not tell if it came from the revolutionaries or from Gaddafi's forces."

Earlier, some NTC fighters gave a different account of the colonel's death, saying he had been shot by his captors when he tried to escape.

Happily, the NTC fighters' different account wasn't elaborated on in the article.

The different account from the NTC fighters-
http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/10/21/idINIndia-60056720111021
a succession of shaky mobile phone videos, filmed by government fighters, show that very soon after his capture Gaddafi already had blood streaming down the side of his face and onto his scarf and shirt from a wound close to his left ear.

Later he is hauled onto the bonnet of a Toyota pick-up truck and held in a sitting position by the scruff of his shirt.

Looking dazed with blood now streaming down the left of his face, Gaddafi can be heard saying "God forbids this" several times as slaps from the crowd rain down on his head.

"This is for Misrata, you dog," said one man slapping him. The unit which captured Gaddafi was from Misrata, a city that suffered widespread destruction in a lengthy siege after its citizens rose up against 42 years of one-man rule.

"Do you know right from wrong?" Gaddafi says.

"Shut up you dog," someone replies as more blows rain down.

Mahmoud Hamada, a fighter clearly recognisable from the films as being there at the time, said Gaddafi was already barely able to walk when he was captured.

Hamada said he and others hauled the former despot onto the front of the truck to get him through the crush of fighters to a waiting ambulance some 500 metres (yards) away.

One video shows Gaddafi being heaved off the bonnet of the truck and dragged towards a car, then pulled down by his hair. "Keep him alive, keep him alive!" someone shouts.

But another man in the crowd lets out a high-pitched hysterical scream. Gaddafi then goes out of view and gunshots ring out. Hamada said he did not see Gaddafi dragged to the ground and said the ousted leader was in a bad way, but alive when he was put into the waiting ambulance and it drove away.

In what appeared to contradict the events in the video, Libya's ruling NTC said Gaddafi was shot in the head in crossfire between government troops and his own supporters while being taken away in the ambulance. He died from the wound minutes before reaching hospital, the prime minister said, but no order had been given to kill him.

But the ambulance driver, Ali Jaghdoun, said Gaddafi was already dead when he picked him up and he then drove the body to the city of Misrata. "I didn't try to revive him because he was already dead," Jaghdoun said.

There was also no damage to Jaghdoun's ambulance.

A Reuters witness who saw Gaddafi's body in Misrata on Friday said it bore a bullet hole on the left side of the head, as well as a large bruise on one side and scratch marks.

There is a possibility that Gaddafi may have received the head wound before or very soon after his capture in a drainage pipe on the outskirts of Sirte and died later of that wound.

Government fighter Ahmed al-Masalati from Misrata said he was there. He said Gaddafi's convoy escaped at 6:30 am and went around a roundabout and came under fire from government forces.

"They were trapped in these positions," he said, pointing to the field. "At 8:15 a NATO jet came in, a Mirage. It shot at the group of 11 cars then made another pass and shot at other group at the north end who were held up in seven cars."

That account was confirmed by a Gaddafi prisoner on Friday, Jibril Abu Shnaf, who was captured not far from the convoy.

"I was cooking for the other guys, when all of a sudden they came in and said 'come on, we're leaving'. I got in a civilian car and joined the end of the convoy. We tried to escape along the coast road. But we came under heavy fire, so we tried another way," he told Reuters while in custody in the town of Sirte.

When the air strike hit the convoy had already stopped "but I don't know why, I was just following the others", he said. "Then the only thing I saw was dead bodies all around, dust and debris. It went dark," Shnaf said.


"I saw this guy running," he said, gesturing towards another prisoner beside him, "and I just followed him. I had no idea Muammar was with us until they (his captors) told us."

Gaddafi himself escaped the carnage.

Mansour Daou, leader of Gaddafi's personal bodyguards, was with the ousted leader shortly before he died. He told al Arabiya television that after the air strike the survivors had "split into groups and each group went its own way".

Other NTC militiamen who also said they were present and, separately interviewed in different locations, all named each other as also having been at the scene and their stories matched closely. One man had what he said was Gaddafi's gold-plated pistol.

"At first we fired at them with anti-aircraft guns, but it was no use," said Bakeer, while being feted by his comrades near the road and the drainage pipes. "Then we went in on foot.

"One of Gaddafi's men came out waving his rifle in the air and shouting surrender, but as soon as he saw my face he started shooting at me," he told Reuters.

"Then I think Gaddafi must have told them to stop. 'My master is here, my master is here', he said, 'Muammar Gaddafi is here and he is wounded'," said Bakeer.

"We went in and brought Gaddafi out. He was saying 'what's wrong? What's wrong? What's going on?'. Then we took him and put him in the car," Bakeer said.

At the time of his capture, Gaddafi was already wounded with gunshots to his leg and to his back, Bakeer said.

One of the others who said he took part in the capture of the man who ruled Libya for 42 years said Gaddafi was shot and wounded at the last minute by one of his own men.

"One of Muammar Gaddafi's guards shot him in the chest," said Omran Jouma Shawan.

Another NTC official, speaking to Reuters anonymously, gave another account of Gaddafi's violent death: "They (NTC fighters) beat him very harshly and then they killed him. This is a war."

Where he was captured, fallen electricity cables partially covered the entrance to the drainage pipes and the bodies of three men, apparently Gaddafi bodyguards, lay there, one in shorts probably due to a bandaged wound on his leg.

Only one thing can be ascertained from the Reuters article, which is much better researched than the Beeb's, is that the official statement is just a hasty announcement to ward off any UN probes into Gaddafi's death, which although it won't be followed by any political action may leave question marks over the NTC. The probe is already being ordered in the UNHCR.

Edit: I reiterate my earlier point, a hasty statement about a killing to rule out any wrongdoing for something which could have been murder or 'caught between the crossfire' doesn't reflect well upon the NTC's human rights records.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.