Quadafi's death.

[ramjambunath]

A good article about what the future holds for Libya and the west's role.

http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111021/A_OPINION/110210306

The more important question is what happens next. Will the country fracture and fall into bloody fratricide once the joy of victory is tempered by the reality of rebuilding? Is the interim revolutionary government strong enough to hold the country together? Will the West, which has lobbied against Gadhafi for decades, provide ongoing support or simply turn away?

These are not idle mussing. They are the issues that face the Iraqis and the Afghans, who before long will not have the American military to help prop up their fledgling governments.

I don't think my questions were too dissimilar to this one apart from the Human Rights one, which have been substantiated in the previous post.

 

[rhubroma]

The official NTC version of his death

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15397812


Happily, the NTC fighters' different account wasn't elaborated on in the article.

The different account from the NTC fighters-
http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/10/21/idINIndia-60056720111021


Only one thing can be ascertained from the Reuters article, which is much better researched than the Beeb's, is that the official statement is just a hasty announcement to ward off any UN probes into Gaddafi's death, which although it won't be followed by any political action may leave question marks over the NTC. The probe is already being ordered in the UNHCR.

Edit: I reiterate my earlier point, a hasty statement about a killing to rule out any wrongdoing for something which could have been murder or 'caught between the crossfire' doesn't reflect well upon the NTC's human rights records.

We have pictures of Gaddafi bloodied and beaten in the hands of rebels and it has been reported that he asked them "not to shoot."

So it sounds like murder to me.

It think it's likely that the country is headed toward an intense struggle between its factious parts to at arrive at anything that even resembles a working democracy. The difficulties are formidable, while the Iraq example doesn't provide any basis for a smooth road to stability.

 

[ramjambunath]

We have pictures of Gaddafi bloodied and beaten in the hands of rebels and it has been reported that he asked them "not to shoot."

So it sounds like murder to me.

Technically, doesn't that make it the murder of a PoW? If so, it constitutes a war crime.

War crimes:
Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave-labour or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory, murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war, of persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.

 

[rhubroma]

Certainly, Gaddafi was a bloody dictator. He had tortured and massacred thousands of citizens. And many were those whom he made disappear. He was mentally sick, made crazy by power, one without scruples. His power was such that he even permitted himself to project a kind of folklorist image of himself as a savior. He was a despicable character. A criminal without a doubt. Yet the way in which he was killed was unacceptable, using the same violence that characterized his way of governing...

When you combat a dictator, the first rule is to not behave like one and you don't murder him with cries of Allah Akbar ("God is Great") - as if God could condone such a wild comportment...

Now that Gaddafi is dead, Libya should be reborn. But nobody knows in what condition, nor under which program. Lay culture will be hard pressed to take root in this boiling Islamic part world. Democracy needs time and requires a certain mentality that's based on a constitution in which the individual rights are respected, which can't be arrived out through tribal and sectarian violence. Meanwhile the fundamentalists never miss a chance to jump on the bandwagon.

Tahar Ben Jelloun, la Repubblica

Men are still just as ferocious as they were in the Iliad, in the Bible.

I couldn't agree more with Ben Jelloun's sentiments and analysis.

 

[craig1985]

Say what you like, but Gaddafi certainly reaped what he sowed.

 

[ramjambunath]

That's perfectly put by Ben Jelloun. It encases perfectly the reasons for optimism, caution and hope.

I hope many users read the thread now, when proper articles without the initial euphoria are being published. This thread seemed very active when all there was, was innuendo and heresay.

 

[ramjambunath]

Say what you like, but Gaddafi certainly reaped what he sowed.

He deserved what he got. But the NTC should have had more morals than to murder a captured man (PoW) which as posted above clearly constitutes a war crime.

Of course, there won't be any trial though.

 

[Anonymous]

actually no about everyone knowing someone. the folks at the higher income level don't. (a lot of Republican types). the draft made it much more level across the board. i was a draft eligible man in the last years of the Viet Nam war. you are correct about the career opportunity part though. nowadays they get the middle/lower income folks mostly. "all volunteer army" it has a 3 squares and a roof aspect to it now.i wish we could have them do something else. like build roads and bridges here.

well thats the thing, america its much more the lower/middle income families. In britain now its no longer seen as that way of escaping a poor education/poor income, its very much seen as a proffession for the middle income bracket.

 

[sublimit]

I cant blame the Libyan fighters for executing him after capture. Most of them I suspect are traumatized and were also in fear of their lives for the past few months and have seen colleagues captured and killed in cold blood.
Its a war zone and given that Gaddafi and his backers would of massacred them given the chance if the roles were reversed.

It also looked to be a fairly quick death so I dont think he has to much too complain about instead of a long show trial and then getting hanged, that would of been inhumane.

 

[ramjambunath]

I cant blame the Libyan fighters for executing him after capture. Most of them I suspect are traumatized and were also in fear of their lives for the past few months and have seen colleagues captured and killed in cold blood.
Its a war zone and given that Gaddafi and his backers would of massacred them given the chance if the roles were reversed.

It also looked to be a fairly quick death so I dont think he has to much too complain about instead of a long show trial and then getting hanged, that would of been inhumane.

If Gaddafi's forces did it war crimes charges would have been placed against them, and rightly so (if it happened). The same standards apply to the NTC.

As you point out, it is a war zone and the customs of war according to the Geneva Convention have to be maintained. As I posted in post #103, it constitutes a war crime to kill a PoW (the war crimes part was a short excerpt taken from a UN document). Even the UNHRC (UN human rights commissioner) has called for a probe into the death of Gaddafi.

How can NTC fighters take law into their own hands when they are looking to establish a credible democracy in the coming years. It wouldn't have been inhumane for him to try and defend himself in court, again if a credible democracy is established unlike Afghanistan and also to a large extent Iraq, a proper court case would have taken place. After all, how can a country have a strong democracy without a strong judiciary.

I don't want to go into the Serbia Bosnia issue, but that is the home of the show trial. I'll name two people Ratko Mladic and Naser Oric (I won't elaborate, but a bit of research and you will know both are monsters but both don't receive even treatment).

 

[sublimit]

How can NTC fighters take law into their own hands when they are looking to establish a credible democracy in the coming years. It wouldn't have been inhumane for him to try and defend himself in court, again if a credible democracy is established unlike Afghanistan and also to a large extent Iraq, a proper court case would have taken place. After all, how can a country have a strong democracy without a strong judiciary.

I think there's a a big separation between the fighters on the ground and the NTC officials trying to set up the next administration.

I can go only go by what I hear and thats that captured mercenaries and Gaddafi loyalists have in the whole been treated well. On the the other hand the Gaddafi followers have been ruthless in their dealings with POW's, IE Massacres, mass graves discovered etc.

We shouldnt have a UN investigation into every war crime because that could take several years and run into thousands of cases in this war IMO.

 

[ramjambunath]

I posted an article from Reuters on page 10. There are descriptions about how it happened.

The media, even here in India, has been very biased in their coverage of the movement hence, a lot of the articles I posted in the thread earlier are from Al Jazeera. Again, let me make myself clear as my points have been taken wrongly earlier, Gaddafi was a heinous dictator.

I agree with you that the fighters on the ground and the Officials forming the next constitution of Liba are different, but a clear message from the administration that Gaddafi has to be captured not killed could have worked. If that did not work, then the times ahead are very uncertain for Libya as it will have a militia force which cannot be controlled by the administration.

Here are two articles from the BBC about human rights excesses by NTC forces

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14891913

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14135530

Now, if these are dismissed as isolated incidents, problems lie ahead, but if the NTC reacts to these and are actively involved in disarming the militia and at the same time framing a solid constitution with a strong legislature, preferably parliamentary system, there is great cause for optimism.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Before you continue to harp on about the manner of his death, Ramjam, take a look at this -

As Libya takes stock, Moammar Kadafi's hidden riches astound

New estimates of the former leader's assets — more than $200 billion — are called 'staggering.' If they prove true, he would rank among the world's most rapacious leaders.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-kadafi-money-20111022,0,5740812.story

 

[ramjambunath]

Amster, I don't like the fellow. I never pitied him and never called him a saint or even a good leader. I did state that he was a heinous dictator and nothing will ever change that.

I wrote quite a long post but my browser crashed, so here's a briefish response.

This is one of the most important events in African history, as big as the independence movements (maybe a step below this), Angolan war, the Rwandan genocide and the ouster of Mobutu Sese.

The article you posted was a very good one. It also shows why he wanted a currency standard (last year) similar to the gold standard that used to exist (I think a currency traded in gold exchange). I hope the money is distributed to the rightful owners (the Libyan people) in a proper and responsible manner.

I was, in my previous posts, pointing out that the new face of Libya (NTC) doesn't need to start its tenure with what could easily be interpreted as a war crime.

I was also trying to post what the challenges ahead were and one of the most important projects for Libya as a country, the Great Manmade River. Though this was started by Gaddafi, any project that could help make Libya more water independent is of extreme importance.

 

[rhubroma]

Before you continue to harp on about the manner of his death, Ramjam, take a look at this -

As Libya takes stock, Moammar Kadafi's hidden riches astound

New estimates of the former leader's assets — more than $200 billion — are called 'staggering.' If they prove true, he would rank among the world's most rapacious leaders.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-kadafi-money-20111022,0,5740812.story

I have to say that, while it is totally comprehensible and thus not at all surprising the end of Moammar Gaddafi, I personally feel that the images transmitted on the internet and on the TV of the whole world don't do honor to a people that had to face up to a dictator who should have indubitably been arrested - and not killed with shouts of Allah Akbar! ("God is great!).

It's known that violence calls upon more violence, though there is no good that comes from this fatality.

Libya is a country in which everything has to be rebuilt from scratch. The State doesn't exist, just as a tradition of political parties doesn't exist either. There are no unions, nor opposition groups. Essentially the basic foundation of a nation is what's missing, for which everything has to be created from nothing in order to pass from a country of tribes, to a Constitution that recognizes individual rights and establishes a series of values and principles.

The final battle conducted against Gaddafi and his clan is part of the excesses of a revolt that hasn't yet reached the state of a revolution. After the supreme humiliation against Saddam Hussein, the disappearance in the sea of Osama bin Laden, the flights of Mubarak and Ben Ali, now the eyes look toward Syria and Yemen.

The Arab Spring is unleashing upon its past an unedited violence, reflective of other violence that has long reigned over these countries. The attacks against the Copts of Egypt were scandalous, just as is the intolerance among some Tunisians before films and documentaries that take some liberty in respect to certain muslim dogmas. Lay culture will be difficult to insert within these islamic counties in ferment.

Libya, after decades of repression and terror, has earned the right to enjoy the liberty of democracy: and this is precisely why, in my opinion, what was needed was to give a good example. By not being placed under the judicial process, which after all is the corner stone of any democracy - legality - the rebels used the same methods of the bloody dictator they fought against.

This is why the Libyan struggle toward democracy has gotten off on the wrong foot. Was this to be expected? Of course it was. But he that lives by the sword, shall die by the sword. And an eye for an eye is the type of Biblical and Far West mentality that is hardly becoming of a modern democracy. The Arabs, first and foremost, will need to learn this lesson.

Lastly with a country that has the exorbitant wealth that Libya does, now that Gaddafi is dead, for once it's hoped that it can go to the schools and the hospitals: in short to the needs of the community.

 

[ramjambunath]

I just hope this doesn't sound as raining on the parade, but just a note of caution to be maintained at not repeating past mistakes.

Rhubroma, agree with everything your articulate post says including that final closer. I hope that Libya utilise their rich natural effectively and not repeat the mistakes of Nigeria and Royal Dutch Shell (BP equivalent in a Nigerian village minus the compensation). If it is used properly, it could definitely make Libya a proper wealthy nation.

 

[El Pistolero]

I cant blame the Libyan fighters for executing him after capture. Most of them I suspect are traumatized and were also in fear of their lives for the past few months and have seen colleagues captured and killed in cold blood.
Its a war zone and given that Gaddafi and his backers would of massacred them given the chance if the roles were reversed.

It also looked to be a fairly quick death so I dont think he has to much too complain about instead of a long show trial and then getting hanged, that would of been inhumane.

Yeah, we don't need another Saddam Hussein show trial. They even let the guy watch the South Park movie countless of times while in prison. Poor guy!

Shooting guys like him in the head at point blank range is the best you can do. Quick and painless death.

But, I doubt Libya will turn into a nice democracy from now of on. Don't have much faith in the new government.

edit: scrap that, Kadaffi apparently got raped in the ass

http://m.spitsnieuws.nl/archives/buitenland/2011/10/ghadaffi-anaal-verkracht-filmpje

 

[Amsterhammer]

......................
This is why the Libyan struggle toward democracy has gotten off on the wrong foot. Was this to be expected? Of course it was.................

Agree entirely with your thoughtful and articulate comments Rhub, most especially with the above, which was my feeling from the beginning. I was convinced that Gaddafi would die somehow if he was ever caught in Libya. A sort of historical inevitability, if you like. That doesn't mean that my personal morality condones this, or any other abuse, of human rights by the new authorities or anyone else. But sadly, in the real world, sh!t happens.

As disgusting and objectionable as that latest piece of film posted by EP is, I think calling what is seen 'anal rape' is a gross exaggeration.

 

[ramjambunath]

Yeah, we don't need another Saddam Hussein show trial. They even let the guy watch the South Park movie countless of times while in prison. Poor guy!

Shooting guys like him in the head at point blank range is the best you can do. Quick and painless death.

But, I doubt Libya will turn into a nice democracy from now of on. Don't have much faith in the new government.

edit: scrap that, Kadaffi apparently got raped in the ass

http://m.spitsnieuws.nl/archives/buitenland/2011/10/ghadaffi-anaal-verkracht-filmpje

I wouldn't want to write off the NTC so quickly, just as yet. One of the key issues is going to be whether the NTC splits or allows opposition views into consideration for the framing of the constitution. I'll draw a parallel with India, which was predominantly a one party democracy for 25 years. Even when the Indian constitution was framed, one of the single most influential leaders in the framing of the constitution was BR Ambedkar, a non congress leader.

Having said that, your worries are well justified, we have seen in the past two military efforts of NATO, that ousting a regime is the easiest part. The last thing that Europe (I stress this) needs is an unstable or weak Libyan regime with low credibility. The best way for an illegal African immigrant (particularly Sub Saharan) to enter Europe is through Niger, sometimes Chad and into Libya where they either settle or head into the Mediterranean sea and into Italy (not the mainland but an island). The journey is fraught with peril and mortality is just part of the game.

Here's some information on illegal immigration into Europe and the routes and methods-
http://www.migrationinformation.org/feature/display.cfm?id=484


Edit: Disarming the not very controllable militia, at the moment, is also going to be a key challenge. One other issue is, this is important and hasn't been addressed, unlike in Egypt where the defence forces took a strict hands off approach, in Libya the defence forces turned against the movement (resulting in resolution 1973 about the no fly zone). I haven't read many reports on this, but does this mean that a whole new defence setup has to be constituted. If so, will the NTC start at level 0 or just incorporate the militia into the defence forces. If it is the former, it will take lots of resources and a lot of time, but the military won't be powerful enough to get into politics (avoid another Gaddafi). If it is the latter, the basic resources would be in place but there is a danger of a free willed military which exercises power beyond the necessary limits has never turned out well (Zia ul Haq, Musharraf, Hosni Mubarak etc).

The functioning of a democracy needs a strong judiciary, as Rhubroma's excellent post points out. A show trial would be what could be said as the Lowest level (the very lowest) in this procedure, but a proper govt cannot have a weak judiciary run by a whimsical govt.

2nd Edit: I'm in a very loving mood today and I must say that though we don't all share the same opinions on this matter, this is a pretty good discussion (especially since we got off the topic of whether celebrating his death was right) that hasn't mired into insults.

I don't think I've made many mistakes (historically and factually) here and have tried to back up my arguments with some report or the other. If I did, surely an odd mistake from a 22 year old can be excused.

 

[rhubroma]

Agree entirely with your thoughtful and articulate comments Rhub, most especially with the above, which was my feeling from the beginning. I was convinced that Gaddafi would die somehow if he was ever caught in Libya. A sort of historical inevitability, if you like. That doesn't mean that my personal morality condones this, or any other abuse, of human rights by the new authorities or anyone else. But sadly, in the real world, sh!t happens.

As disgusting and objectionable as that latest piece of film posted by EP is, I think calling what is seen 'anal rape' is a gross exaggeration.

Well never having been personally anally raped as they say, I wouldn't exactly know which, in this regard, is a gross exaggeration or not.

 

[rhubroma]

I wouldn't want to write off the NTC so quickly, just as yet. One of the key issues is going to be whether the NTC splits or allows opposition views into consideration for the framing of the constitution. I'll draw a parallel with India, which was predominantly a one party democracy for 25 years. Even when the Indian constitution was framed, one of the single most influential leaders in the framing of the constitution was BR Ambedkar, a non congress leader.

Having said that, your worries are well justified, we have seen in the past two military efforts of NATO, that ousting a regime is the easiest part. The last thing that Europe (I stress this) needs is an unstable or weak Libyan regime with low credibility. The best way for an illegal African immigrant (particularly Sub Saharan) to enter Europe is through Niger, sometimes Chad and into Libya where they either settle or head into the Mediterranean sea and into Italy (not the mainland but an island). The journey is fraught with peril and mortality is just part of the game.

Here's some information on illegal immigration into Europe and the routes and methods-
http://www.migrationinformation.org/feature/display.cfm?id=484


Edit: Disarming the not very controllable militia, at the moment, is also going to be a key challenge. One other issue is, this is important and hasn't been addressed, unlike in Egypt where the defence forces took a strict hands off approach, in Libya the defence forces turned against the movement (resulting in resolution 1973 about the no fly zone). I haven't read many reports on this, but does this mean that a whole new defence setup has to be constituted. If so, will the NTC start at level 0 or just incorporate the militia into the defence forces. If it is the former, it will take lots of resources and a lot of time, but the military won't be powerful enough to get into politics (avoid another Gaddafi). If it is the latter, the basic resources would be in place but there is a danger of a free willed military which exercises power beyond the necessary limits has never turned out well (Zia ul Haq, Musharraf, Hosni Mubarak etc).

The functioning of a democracy needs a strong judiciary, as Rhubroma's excellent post points out. A show trial would be what could be said as the Lowest level (the very lowest) in this procedure, but a proper govt cannot have a weak judiciary run by a whimsical govt.

2nd Edit: I'm in a very loving mood today and I must say that though we don't all share the same opinions on this matter, this is a pretty good discussion (especially since we got off the topic of whether celebrating his death was right) that hasn't mired into insults.

I don't think I've made many mistakes (historically and factually) here and have tried to back up my arguments with some report or the other. If I did, surely an odd mistake from a 22 year old can be excused.

How about making many mistakes from a 41 year old.

Apart from this, your post I think raises the critical issue: that is what's going to be the role in the forging of a Libyan democracy of the the strong-hands and leadership among the militia that was so fundamental to bringing Gaddafi down?

In other words, what will be the margin for a political process and hence a culture of values and principles in the constructing of a new, democratic state? And what will be the weight of those who simply have in the short term acquired power and a leadership role merely be dint of brute force and violence?

This is always the tricky thing: what comes next, after the killing and obliterating is done?

The fact that there exists no tradition of a politcal process, or culture for that matter, doesn't leave much room for optimism.

Again I think Iraq would serve as the most immediate model of what happens when you take a bloody and corrupt tyranny down and then try to raise the Phoenix of a democracy from the ashes that resulted from the fire?

Keeping the forces of arms and prepotency, which won't at all be a given in an boiling Arab country, from gaining the upper hand and stifling the political process in this decisive after-Gaddafi, embryonic phase of Libyan independence, will be the criteria upon which I think future history shall judge the success and merit of this phase of the Arab Spring.

Too much meddling by the West, especially for reasons of avidity, is no good, however, the Libyans may need outside help to achieve something other than something akin "marshal law" in their future.

In any case the reports today say Libya expects to hold the first elections in 8 months, while in this moment the Arab Spring confronts its first democratic exam in Tunisia: amidst repressive and insurectional violence, which has not completely ceased.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Best summary I've seen of his last day. All they need to do quickly now is find (and hopefully capture rather than kill) the remaining son on the loose. Then it really will be over.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/23/gaddafi-last-words-begged-mercy

 

[Spider1964]

Wtf?

 

[Cobblestones]

Meanwhile, rebel forces suspected of mass executions of Gaddhafi loyalists in Sirte. Source.

This (and many more, less well documented instances) suggest that the execution of Gaddhafi wasn't a singular act.

 

[ramjambunath]

Meanwhile, rebel forces suspected of mass executions of Gaddhafi loyalists in Sirte. Source.

This (and many more, less well documented instances) suggest that the execution of Gaddhafi wasn't a singular act.

They're just shooting themselves in the foot by doing this and only creating more doubts for the future of the country.

Meanwhile Gaddafi has been buried in a secret location in a desert

Spider, I thought the News of The World was closed.