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Quandry: Evans beats Vino

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python said:
how to explain his latest successes ? i think the playing field is a tad more level now and he became a more astute rider.

is vino doped now ? can't tell until the 3d week ;)
thinking the exact same thing - the doping doesn't really come into it until the latter stages as they're far less fatigued...
 
I Watch Cycling In July said:
So, if anyone thinks Cadel is clean and Vino is doping, how do they explain the results?

I don't necessarily think the statement you give, but you are assuming that doping is some kind of magic carpet that will make you win. It won't, as is proven by the list of super-major names that are getting busted - Francesco De Bonis, Pietro Caucchioli, Manuel Vázquez, Alberto Fernández de la Puebla... they're not winning things, but they were doping. It is possible for a rider to simply be more talented or adaptable than another, or for doping to not work as intended. Kohl said his final blood top-up didn't go according to plan otherwise he could have won the Tour. We've all heard the horror stories that Luís Maté and Jesús Manzano have had with doping not going according to plan.

It is possible to explain Evans' results over Vino's and still believe Evans is clean and Vino isn't, using the following explanations:

1) Evans is a better rider/Evans is in better form
2) Vino has been doping, but the top-up hasn't worked/didn't have the intended effect
3) Evans is 33 and Vino 36, and the age gap makes a difference to the endurance/explosiveness/Vino has had two years out and though he's been back to his best recently, he hasn't had the experience of racing at the business end of a Grand Tour recently and made a couple of naïve tactical decisions that allowed Evans to capitalise and take the win.

I don't necessarily believe any of that, but I dislike the argument that there can be no explanation for beating a doper other than being a doper. David Moncoutié came top 10 in the Vuelta in 2008, does that make him a doper? Or did he just have the race of his life and a lot of others underperformed?
 
Feb 25, 2010
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Libertine Seguros said:
I don't necessarily think the statement you give, but you are assuming that doping is some kind of magic carpet that will make you win. It won't, as is proven by the list of super-major names that are getting busted - Francesco De Bonis, Pietro Caucchioli, Manuel Vázquez, Alberto Fernández de la Puebla... they're not winning things, but they were doping. It is possible for a rider to simply be more talented or adaptable than another, or for doping to not work as intended. Kohl said his final blood top-up didn't go according to plan otherwise he could have won the Tour. We've all heard the horror stories that Luís Maté and Jesús Manzano have had with doping not going according to plan.

It is possible to explain Evans' results over Vino's and still believe Evans is clean and Vino isn't, using the following explanations:

1) Evans is a better rider/Evans is in better form
2) Vino has been doping, but the top-up hasn't worked/didn't have the intended effect
3) Evans is 33 and Vino 36, and the age gap makes a difference to the endurance/explosiveness/Vino has had two years out and though he's been back to his best recently, he hasn't had the experience of racing at the business end of a Grand Tour recently and made a couple of naïve tactical decisions that allowed Evans to capitalise and take the win.

I don't necessarily believe any of that, but I dislike the argument that there can be no explanation for beating a doper other than being a doper. David Moncoutié came top 10 in the Vuelta in 2008, does that make him a doper? Or did he just have the race of his life and a lot of others underperformed?

And Vino also worked his a$$ of to stay clear :)
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Michielveedeebee said:
yeah he did but he didn't win a lot of races now did he? and not trying to put words in your mouth in any way :)

Yes you are. I'm going to restate what I said before: it's not me you're quoting. It may say "issoisso", but blackcat wrote that, not me.
Either the forum is glitching or you pasted my username over blackcat's.

Hopefully I made the point clear enough this time :)
 
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Libertine Seguros said:
...but you are assuming that doping is some kind of magic carpet that will make you win...

No. IMO winning is some combination of talent, tactics, luck, form, mental state and medical preparation for the specific event, but not necessarily in that order of importance.

Libertine Seguros said:
It is possible to explain Evans' results over Vino's and still believe Evans is clean and Vino isn't, using the following explanations....I don't necessarily believe any of that, but I dislike the argument that there can be no explanation for beating a doper other than being a doper....

I also dislike the argument, primarily because I believe it encourages doping at all levels of cycling. There is a big difference between saying "the number of positive tests shows that doping is still widespread in cycling and more needs to be done" and saying "it's impossible to win clean; all the top guys are doing it."

The former is indisputable and offers hope for the future, while the later depends on circular logic, offers no hope, and essentially advertises PEDs to the next generation of cyclists. Although both statements do recognize that the system bears much of the responsibility individuals choosing to dope, which is a good thing IMO.
 
Feb 25, 2010
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issoisso said:
Yes you are. I'm going to restate what I said before: it's not me you're quoting. It may say "issoisso", but blackcat wrote that, not me.
Either the forum is glitching or you pasted my username over blackcat's.

Hopefully I made the point clear enough this time :)

woops sorry didn't know that and I surely didn't paste your name above blackcats. minor bug I guess....
 
Jun 22, 2009
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In re to evans:

I think evans is clean.
However if he is still competitive come the tour (especially after this insanely hard giro) I might change my opinion. But I doubt he will be.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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The answer of course is... I have no idea.

I neither like nor dislike Cuddles, except his squeaky voice and girly tantrum slap-fests, but I do like his newfound riding style. What made him change at age 33? Confidence? :D I hate being that guy who yells 'doper' whenever a guy has a great performance. Cadel has been a great rider for years and he targeted this part of the season. He's up against tough competition, but most of the people who have traditionally beat him in GTs are not there. Add Contador, Schleck, Valverde, Menchov, etc to the mix (and keep poor Sastre on his bike) and maybe he's in 4th place and we're not even having this debate.
 
Apr 19, 2010
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I just think he's gambling more since that famous attack came off at the world championships.

The attack today wasn't likely to succeed but he now has the confidence to give it ago and not be afraid of looking like a tit when it fails.
 
Apr 19, 2010
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Actually, come to think of it, Evans first rolled out this more attacking style at the Dauphiné last year. He attacked repeadedly to shake off AC and Valverde. He did not succeed in getting rid of them but had still attacked more times in that one race than he had done over his entire career, to that date.

He then collapsed at the tour, of course, so we never got to see it there.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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python said:
i dont believe evans dopes now but i have no doubt whatsoever that he had doped at some point.

how to explain his latest successes ? i think the playing field is a tad more level now and he became a more astute rider.

is vino doped now ? can't tell until the 3d week ;)

He has been questioned that he has "seen" riders dope and has said no. Personally I don't believe that. He has had a slow progression into the sport as he was at the top of mountai biking when he left it for road and once he got to road he had quite a few tough years even though he started a bit later on the road in comparison to others. 2003 and 2004 were horrible years for him so linking the t-mobile point to him is a bit false. You can argue that he has been on some "suspect" teams that have had doping cases but that makes everyone guilty in the peleton and I don't think that is truly accurate in the pro peleton.