Qui Tam, Baby

[D-Queued]

Any promotion USPS received vis-a-vis cycling is now and forever associated with cheating.

...

That may not actually matter too much. The most famous brand associated with cheating in modern cycling has to be "Festina". I once saw an assessment (although I cannot find the reference at the moment) which showed that Festina Watches, the company, actually benefitted from the greatly increased publicity.

Whether or not USPS have a claim against Armstrong depends very much on the details of the contract. If that contract explicitly prohibited the use of PEDs, (and if they can demonstrate that such a clause was reasonable) they have a much stronger case than if the contract makes no mention of PEDs, and they somehow try to argue that Armstrong brought their name into disrepute, for example. The fact that Armstrong has reportedly already offered $5M in compensation points to the former.

The argument forwarded by Herman is an interesting one, but a dangerous slippery slope for Lance.

Yes, there was a study that suggested Festina benefited from the additional exposure.

The USPS is a very different beast, however.

It is a pseudo-Government entity that is the US's largest civilian employer and is supported by tax dollars, wherein that same Government has very active anti-drug authorities, laws and campaigns.

The USPS is also an entity strongly associated with 'goin Postal' and other negative image issues. Substance abuse is a serious concern, and the Postal Service has an active substance abuse testing program.

Asserting that the benefit of the sponsorship may have been triple the investment must also take into account the value of the damage of being associated with a new form of 'Goin Postal, or 'Riding the Postal Bus.

Does Lance really want to be held to the standard of image impact?

Probably not. Then there is the issue of proof: millions of dollars would be spent by both parties (starting with Lance), needlessly, on valuing the image enhancement or damage.

The $30m should be pain enough.

Dave.

 

[mountainrman]

POINT 1
Also, your score card is wrong. LeMond 1 Armstrong 0, or even LeMond 2 Armstrong 0 when it comes to It

POINT 2
Lance screwed Floyd and has not paid for that.

Dave.

On 1 - Lemond ended up writing an apology to Armstrong in 2001 and in "Trek vs LeMond " a front for the Armstrong feud the settlement just gave him his now defunct bike business back, and a charity donation. In essence Armstrong 2 lemond 0, since the business by then was essentially dead, no doubt settled because LeMond ran out if funds to fight on - which is how Lawyers are used as enforcers as part of the Armstrong standard method.

On 2 - Landis decision to defraud his fairness fund and almost bankrupt USADA in a fake fight to defend fake innocence , lying solid fir 4 whole years is all Landis. His decision to dope in 2006 before being busted is also his own decision. So most of what hapoened he has nobody to blame but himself. The demand Landis to Armstrong of Give me a job or I tell all cannot be far short of criminal blackmail. Armstrong is guilty as hell of many things, and in a nasty league all his own, but IMHO Landis can mainly only blame himself. Qui tam and tell all for Landis is vengeance and profit opportunism not justice

I have very little sympathy for Landis. I do not think Landis deserves wealth out of this.

 

[blackcat]

The argument forwarded by Herman is an interesting one, but a dangerous slippery slope for Lance.

Yes, there was a study that suggested Festina benefited from the additional exposure.

The USPS is a very different beast, however.

It is a pseudo-Government entity that is the US's largest civilian employer and is supported by tax dollars, wherein that same Government has very active anti-drug authorities, laws and campaigns.

The USPS is also an entity strongly associated with 'goin Postal' and other negative image issues. Substance abuse is a serious concern, and the Postal Service has an active substance abuse testing program.

Asserting that the benefit of the sponsorship may have been triple the investment must also take into account the value of the damage of being associated with a new form of 'Goin Postal, or 'Riding the Postal Bus.

Does Lance really want to be held to the standard of image impact?

Probably not. Then there is the issue of proof: millions of dollars would be spent by both parties (starting with Lance), needlessly, on valuing the image enhancement or damage.

The $30m should be pain enough.

Dave.

but folks will forget, for all the temporal and ephemeral positive publicity for USPS during 1999 thru 2004, the annals of the Tour and history will now be written that Armstrong hyphen United States Postal Service, biggest sports fraud.

This is on the liability side of the ledger.

And the USPS sponsorship, was only part an exercise to move more packages in post from the continent, to the continent, domestic, etc, in competition to FedEx TNT etc.

It was a major investment for the organisation en masse, for the employees, the values, their culture, and as example for posties to aspire to.

And the cost over those 5 years, was an investment for the future, an annuity stream of positive history, and an experience and team the company could be proud of, and leverage it to pique the employee morale. NO - NOT IN THE ANTHONY ROBBINS or MOTIVATION POSTERS variety. All the intangibles, and positive culture.

This investment, just became a massive expense.

How does Weisel Armstrong and Tailwind compensate for this? Triple the 30 million sponsorship?

 

[Pazuzu]

Politics, my friend, politics. Armstrong got Bill Clinton to lean on Birotte to at least pause the criminal investigation last February. Imagine the pressures being brought by his "friends" on DOJ and USPS regarding the possibility they would join the Landis Qui Tam. Fabiani/Luskin to Clinton to Holder anyone?

That's my fear too. That Holder will kill this thing. We see what happens tomorrow.

Speaking of Andre Birotte, if he dropped the federal investigation because Clinton intervened on Armstrong's behalf, then he has no right being a federal prosecutor. I'd love for an investigative journalist to look into exactly why Birotte closed the Armstrong investigaiton and the various connections at play behind the scenes.

 

[blackcat]

basically, I just mimicked the post I quoted, which is a lesson in reading posts before you enter your reply(ies)

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

You can be anything you want on the intertubes. I was Emperor of China when I was 3. Top that.

Now, time for that pedicure!

That so weird in a funny kind of way. I was emperor of China at 2. Also I am sponsored by MENSA.
I was also Lucasian professor under a pseudonym and was super into wheelchairs, who simultaneously shunned bridge and thought chess was for super geeks who are 'into' dopers. ( DJ Freud is in da house....)

 

[reginagold]

That's my fear too. That Holder will kill this thing. We see what happens tomorrow.

Speaking of Andre Birotte, if he dropped the federal investigation because Clinton intervened on Armstrong's behalf, then he has no right being a federal prosecutor. I'd love for an investigative journalist to look into exactly why Birotte closed the Armstrong investigaiton and the various connections at play behind the scenes.

It's already been reported here and elsewhere it was a simple phrase from Clinton, apparently a man to whom Birotte in part owed his position. Something along the lines of "you don't really want to prosecute an American hero...."

Luskin's firm, Patton Boggs, employs a number of former Senators and former members of the House of Representatives for their expertise in influencing these sorts of matters. The firm has particular strength during Democratic administrations. Likely that Holder will fall in line with their wishes. They do other important things of value for the "team", fundraising the least of the favors. It's not a quid pro quo ever, it's just being sensitive to the other's needs.

 

[D-Queued]

basically, I just mimicked the post I quoted, which is a lesson in reading posts before you enter your reply(ies)

You sure made some great points - or, rather an exclamation point!!!

Dave.

 

[D-Queued]

On 1 - <Lies about the Trek v Lemond case>.

On 2 - <Landis hate stuff>.

Why are you lying?

And, where did my original post go?

Dave.

 

[blackcat]

You sure made some great points - or, rather an exclamation point!!!

Dave.

point I wished to ambiguously make, was all the 300 million worth of publicity and eyeballs, could never be monetized, cos of their business model. pretty much commodity/utility type consistent market. not like Motorola who did well with their engagement on the continent. nor like HTC when they decided to branch out into branding, and not making handsets for others. It was a different gambit. Say, like Livestrong (foundation) taking the rights to Kansas City stadium

I have had it up to here with the talking point about Livestrong doing alot of good. It is like a barrier when every critic has to recognise Livestrong as "good". But like for like, what could this money buy at the Susan G Komen org. Let me spend that budget, I could do "good" too. I could also live high on the hog like 3 Cups of Tea. Even Frankie on ESPN had to offer this morsel up. But the logic here is flawed. Someone else could do much more good, on the equivalent budget. And this neglects the fact that the pool of charitable contributions is pretty static, so when there is a Haiti, or a pacific Tsunami, other charities that may have seen a regular flow of donations, see a hit to their incoming contributions. If it is zero sum, and Armstrongs PR foundation, is tapping from that pool, then others do not get the opportunity to do <weasal word warning> "good work".

And will someone with profile, please disabuse the rubes with the believe that the contributions are going towards research and a cure.

Survivorship, great noun that, brilliant strategy from the Livestrong execs, to co-opt this market. We dont want he cancer victims. They cannot by yellow product. We focus on those consumers. (or survivors). This is how they think.



Komen

could

_________do



_________________________better

 

[mountainrman]

On 1 - Lemond ended up writing an apology to Armstrong in 2001 and in "Trek vs LeMond " a front for the Armstrong feud the settlement just gave him his now defunct bike business back, and a charity donation. In essence Armstrong 2 lemond 0, since the business by then was essentially dead, no doubt settled because LeMond ran out if funds to fight on - which is how Lawyers are used as enforcers as part of the Armstrong standard method.

On 2 - Landis decision to defraud his fairness fund and almost bankrupt USADA in a fake fight to defend fake innocence , lying solid fir 4 whole years is all Landis. His decision to dope in 2006 before being busted is also his own decision. So most of what hapoened he has nobody to blame but himself. The demand Landis to Armstrong of Give me a job or I tell all cannot be far short of criminal blackmail. Armstrong is guilty as hell of many things, and in a nasty league all his own, but IMHO Landis can mainly only blame himself. Qui tam and tell all for Landis is vengeance and profit opportunism not justice

I have very little sympathy for Landis. I do not think Landis deserves wealth out of this.

Why are you lying?

And, where did my original post go?

Dave.

What I said was a fair representation of what happened.

re original post - I reduced it to the two points of substance - it makes it hard to read when long quotes are contained in a reply and on an iPad it becomes hard to edit when so long.

I did not think any of this was disputed.

Armstrong used lawyers and this case through Trek to bully opponents - this case Lemond -Into submission and force them at the end of a legal gun to apologise as he did to LeMond in 2001 Ask David Walsh who also had to apologise. Lemond came off second best with a destroyed bike business.

Landis is no angel. He did misrepresent himself for 4 years leading to a wholesale fraud on his fairness fund, and getting suspended jail time for it. I do not by the way think any of landis's contributors whilst p*ssed about being lied to, would want to see him jail for it and neither do I
. Did you know that the Landis doping appeal fight nearly bankrupted USADA? He is owed some remission for coming clean, but his motives were never altruistic. I do not think he should become rich for doping. That would be an insult to clean riders. Ask Nicole Cooke who was very forthright on that recently. IMHO There are 101 more worthy claimants to Armstrongs ill gotten gains including Lemond

Why do you like Landis so much? Why do you blame Armstrong for Landis' downfall?

 

[Scott SoCal]

Why do you like Landis so much? ?

Floyd had the balls to tell the real story when no one else did. Floyd dropped the bomb on omertà .... dropped the bomb on LA.

What went on before was Floyd playing the game the way he understood the rules. When that didn't work out, he told the truth. Broke the 'mafia', broke Lance. Floyd has suffered much under the world according to Lance. Now, it's time to get paid.

Say 'hi' to BPC, errrr Arbiter for me.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

So now we know why the government didn't join earlier: Political pressure. (we already knew that) One person stopped the government from joining Tuesday. Holder has the decision now. We'll see if the Justice Department is a department of justice.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/landis-case-lance-wet-whistle-tune-90m-article-1.1241686

Manipulation of the process is par for the course, lets just hope this time that they are forced into actually performing their job.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Link to the full text of Floyd's suit: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0UaqYGyOz2SQ3FGLXBCaTVwNDQ/edit?pli=1

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Chewbacca - Unlike the lawyers - it matters to me what is just.

Just because you can do something or win by legal force, does not mean you should. Armstrongs lawyers are in part to blame in crushing people by legal force, not because it was just, but because they knew they would win.

Lawyers in general are a moral vaccuum: who prostitute their principles, and leave them at home- to earn money for representing rich clients in a war which is fought on who is the richer, not on who has the best case if poor. Just because "it is legal" does not make it right.

USPS paid for promotion. LA did not run away with that money or give them substandard goods and pocket the rest. He gave them more promotion than they could ever dream of. The guy is a liar, a cheat, and disreputable in almost every way. So by the way is Landis, who should not benefit from this eeither. But that does not mean he defrauded USPS in the common meaning of that word.
They suffered no loss, so any action in my view is not warranted on the basis of what is just.

He should certainly repay a lot of the people he cheated along the way. Sunday times for one.
USPS in my view is not one of them.
I also think that is why Nike is taking no further action. In the end they mad a mint from Armstrong.

And you never answered the question - if Qui Tam was a slamdunk, why have they left it so long to dunk it?
That says to me they are not convinced.

You do realize that regardless of promotional value if you perp a fraud on the US government then that well is ....all it takes.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

You do realize that regardless of promotional value if you perp a fraud on the US government then that well is ....all it takes.

He needs to read section 25 and 26 of Floyd's suit. I have been telling him all along how this goes down, but for some reason, this chess master and youngest member of MENSA ever cannot seem to grasp simple concepts.

 

[mountainrman]

Floyd had the balls to tell the real story when no one else did. Floyd dropped the bomb on omertà .... dropped the bomb on LA.

What went on before was Floyd playing the game the way he understood the rules. When that didn't work out, he told the truth. Broke the 'mafia', broke Lance. Floyd has suffered much under the world according to Lance. Now, it's time to get paid.

The problem with that explanation is all other dopers including Lance could use the same excuse that he "played the game the way he understood the rules" too. So that does not carry weight.

He deserves credit for breaking the mafia - but it is hard to believe his motives for doingit were in any degree altruistic and he almost broke USADA whilst in denial too.

I don't think the guy deserves jail, and i am sure most of the contributors to his fund do not think so either. That has got out of hand.

I actually think on hearing him speak he is a more decent human being than most of the others. For all that he chose to dope for most of his career and lie about it, and that more than anything led him to where he is now.

So I don't think he deserves to get rich out of it either.

I hope he ends up with plenty enough to pay off the fine as part of a "rapprochement" with Lance.

I think he would be surprised with how many would donate to a new floyd fairness fund set up Kimmage fashion to get him off the hook with the feds because of what he has done to reveal the truth. I probably would chuck in a couple of $tens - would you?

but in my view Lance was not responsible for his downfall. He was. It is time riders took personal responsibility for their actions.

 

[mountainrman]

He needs to read section 25 and 26 of Floyd's suit. .

And I keep telling you Chewbacca , just because something can be enforced legally , does not make it just. I am sure that Landis lawyers have done a good job of digging dirt to make a case.

These lawyers who leave their scruples at home are as much to blame as those that instruct them. They seem to get scruple bypass operations. Ask David Walsh why he apologised to Armstrong some years ago, and whether he thinks the law and justice had much in common. Armstrong traded on legal enforcers for years.

So Here is a serial liar and doper Landis, hoping to get rich out of being a pot calling a kettle blacker. Is that your idea of justice? It is not mine. If I had been Landis's lawyer I would have told him to take a running jump. Sad to say the rest of the legal profession would welcome him with open arms, seeing a paycheck.

Landis does not deserve to get rich out of this. He does not deserve Jail time either, and I am confident if you polled the benefactors to the floyd fairness fund the overwhelming majority would be p*ssed with him, but not want the fraud charge to happen either. A difference then between law and in that case what those who were damaged think is just.

USPS got what they paid for. The fact they are now insolvent is nothing to do with Lance, but their own bad management, and the current fiasco will have little or no effect on them. If they read the newspapers of the time they would know that the sport was endemically corrupt which they knew (or should have known) before they got involved - and that might make an interesting bunfight if Armstrongs lawyers try to prove it.

So if they manage to wriggle out by using fine print, it will be like most other contractual torts, aimed at getting the benefit of a contract then arguing in court to diminish liabilities. Get the goods without having to pay. Having the cake and eating it. It happens every day. The winner is the richest of the claimants who buries the other in paperwork. Armstrong modus operandi, till he challenges someone with deeper pockets than him. The DOJ. It may get them money back, it may make lawyers rich. It will not serve justice a jot.

There are far more deserving claimants to Armstrongs ill gotten gains than USPS who got what they paid for.

And you never have answered my mainlegal issue on this.

If it was such a surefire thing, why did they not fire it till the very last day?
The answer is because it is probably legally murky. Not nearly as clear cut as the clinic hopes.

And by the way, I don't claim to be king of china at 3. I am just what I say. A maths nerd till my late twenties, serial business owner since , till selling out and more or less retiring in late forties - not a rich guy but well enough off, and I dont value material things very much. I am a lifelong ultra running guy who got on a bike because of injuries. I am simply not stupid as most of your posts tried to claim, which is why I commented on the matter.


.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

And I keep telling you Chewbacca , just because something can be enforced legally , does not make it just. I am sure that Landis lawyers have done a good job of digging dirt to make a case.

These lawyers who leave their scruples at home are as much to blame as those that instruct them. They seem to get scruple bypass operations. Ask David Walsh why he apologised to Armstrong some years ago, and whether he thinks the law and justice had much in common. Armstrong traded on legal enforcers for years.

Landis does not deserve to get rich out of this. He does not deserve Jail time either, and I am confident if you polled the benefactors to the floyd fairness fund the overwhelming majority would be p*ssed with him, but not want the fraud charge to happen either. A difference then between law and in that case what those who were damaged think is just.

USPS got what they paid for. The fact they are now insolvent is nothing to do with Lance, but their own bad management, and the current fiasco will have little or no effect on them. If they read the newspapers of the time they would know that the sport was endemically corrupt.

So if they manage to wriggle out by using fine print, it will be like most other contractual torts, aimed at getting the benefit of a contract then arguing in court to diminish liabilities. Get the goods without having to pay. Having the cake and eating it. It happens every day. The winner is the richest of the claimants who buries the other in paperwork. It may get them money back, it may make lawyers rich. It will not serve justice a jot.

There are far more deserving claimants to Armstrongs ill gotten gains than USPS who got what they paid for.

And you never have answered my mainlegal issue on this.

If it was such a surefire thing, why did they not fire it till the very last day?
The answer is because it is probably legally murky. Not nearly as clear cut as the clinic hopes.

And by the way, I don't claim to be king of china at 3. I am just what I say. A maths nerd till my late twenties, serial business owner since , till selling out and more or less retiring in late forties - and lifelong ultra running guy who got on a bike because of injuries. I am simply not stupid as most of your posts tried to claim, which is why I commented on the matter.


.

You still do not understand simple concepts. This isn't about the consideration of the contract, it's about the formation of the contract. I guess being a life long MENSA board member doesn't mean you can discern simple legal concepts? Go back to your chess game. Hey maybe there is a chess forum you can troll?

EDIT: If you think their reluctance to join the suit is guided by anything but political pressure, you really should give back that Lifetime Mensa Rewards Card.

 

[mountainrman]

You still do not understand simple concepts. This isn't about the consideration of the contract, it's about the formation of the contract.

You are still looking at a legal issue - what were conditions and what were terms - and what fineprint DoJ can use to reclaim.

The bigger question is justice.
Landis is a liar and doper who is a pot hoping to get rich by calling a kettle black.
Is that your idea of justice? It is not mine.

At very least if he wins they should deduct the entire cost of the government / USADA legal actions against him arising out of his lying and doping and the recent fraud case against him. They won't of course because it probably is not in the "rules". Has Landis paid back all the money he got from his teams for the years he doped. Probably not. Hypocrisy rules.

I think your peers at DoJ are having a hard time with the legals. Whilst there was clearly pressure in early summer, Ever since September, Armstrongs political support will have run for the hills. Politicians make fickle friends. I doubt if any are taking his calls now.

So inaction since and now is about trying to work out whether they can win, or whether they will suffer the embarassment of losing. Since the Attorney General that says "proceed" will probably lose his job if he says "go" and loses, it tells me he is far from certain. Or he would have done it by now.

 

[MarkvW]

Hard to see how the feds could decline this case. Lance's influence has evaporated. He's actually rather toxic now. And he's apparently already offered the US $5M.

 

[mountainrman]

Hard to see how the feds could decline this case. Lance's influence has evaporated. He's actually rather toxic now. And he's apparently already offered the US $5M.

Unless they don't think they can win.

Armstrong's support will have vanished.

I just see a contradiction:
If they were sure of the ground they would have joined it by now.
If they thought it was a legal minefield, unlikely to win, why not acceptthe offerfrom Armstrong?

I think it is simply a hot potato. Too hot to hold.

If they fight it and lose, whoever said "go" will lose their jobs - or at least never be promoted again and posted to northern alaska, and it is not surefire enough for them to risk their repuations. So they are all passing the buck, as the timer runs out. Probably major internal disagreements.

It is important to understand government service. Same as banks. You don't get promoted for achievement. You get promoted for no mistakes on the record. So I doubt if anyone wants this poisoned chalice.

I think Armstrong is daft to do the interview monday shown today - it should have been left till next week, so it did not become the fine line that pushes DoJ to proceed.

As we speak they may be trying to file for an extension on the basis that Armstrongs interview is material and in time, but cannot be analyzed same day. So give us a week "your honour" to look at it. No idea if they have a legal basis to try to file for an extension

 

[ChewbaccaD]

You are still looking at a legal issue - what were conditions and what were terms - and what fineprint DoJ can use to reclaim.

The bigger question is justice.
Landis is a liar and doper who is a pot hoping to get rich by calling a kettle black.
Is that your idea of justice? It is not mine.

At very least if he wins they should deduct the entire cost of the government / USADA legal actions against him arising out of his lying and doping and the recent fraud case against him. They won't of course because it probably is not in the "rules". Has Landis paid back all the money he got from his teams for the years he doped. Probably not. Hypocrisy rules.

I think your peers at DoJ are having a hard time with the legals. Whilst there was clearly pressure in early summer, Ever since September, Armstrongs political support will have run for the hills. Politicians make fickle friends. I doubt if any are taking his calls now.

So inaction since and now is about trying to work out whether they can win, or whether they will suffer the embarassment of losing. Since the Attorney General that says "proceed" will probably lose his job if he says "go" and loses, it tells me he is far from certain. Or he would have done it by now.

Okay, so now that I show you just how inept you were at discerning the legal issues, you transfer to a soliloquy about "justice." Just days ago, you admitted that your only purpose here is to take a counter opinion to the prevailing opinion. That does not speak well of your mental health.

I prefer not to give much credence to the moral or ethical proclamations and opinions of those with emotional disorders. Sorry.

As for your opinion about why the DoJ hasn't joined the case, you are likely no closer to being correct about that than you have been about any of your opinions on other legal matters.

 

[mountainrman]

As for your opinion about why the DoJ hasn't joined the case,

Mine seems to be the only opinion consistent with the facts.

They don't know whether they can win.

So have left it down to the wire - with probable massive internal disagreement.

For all the blather - You have offered nothing else alternative.

Maybe they will try to file for an extension to allow them to hear lance speak first.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Unless they don't think they can win.

Armstrong's support will have vanished.

I just see a contradiction:
If they were sure of the ground they would have joined it by now.
If they thought it was a legal minefield, unlikely to win, why not acceptthe offerfrom Armstrong?

I think it is simply a hot potato. Too hot to hold.

If they fight it and lose, whoever said "go" will lose their jobs - or at least never be promoted again and posted to northern alaska, and it is not surefire enough for them to risk their repuations. So they are all passing the buck, as the timer runs out. Probably major internal disagreements.

It is important to understand government service. Same as banks. You don't get promoted for achievement. You get promoted for no mistakes on the record. So I doubt if anyone wants this poisoned chalice.

I think Armstrong is daft to do the interview monday shown today - it should have been left till next week, so it did not become the fine line that pushes DoJ to proceed.

As we speak they may be trying to file for an extension on the basis that Armstrongs interview is material and in time, but cannot be analyzed same day. So give us a week "your honour" to look at it. No idea if they have a legal basis to try to file for an extension

So what you're saying is that the DoJ was unwilling to pursue the information that Armstrong will reveal tonight, so they are waiting to hear what he says because ****, why not let him do the heavy lifting for them before they decide? Yea, the USADA did a bang-up job uncovering this information that will be a surprise to nobody who has followed this in an even cursory manner when Wonderboy reveals what we already know this evening.

This was about political pressure. Evidently, based on the fact that Tuesday, everyone in the DoJ room wanted to join, but one person with the power to nullify that consensus would not budge. That speaks of the same thing that happened in the criminal investigation. This isn't about not being able to win, this is about someone with connections influencing the right person. Money provides access everywhere in the world.