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[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Moose, how much do you weigh? I only ask because when people who proclaim no problems with certain product are usually lighter weight riders that couldn't wear out or break anything no matter how hard they try.

Mavic are by far the worst aftermarket hubs on the planet, followed closely by Zipp.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Moose, how much do you weigh? I only ask because when people who proclaim no problems with certain product are usually lighter weight riders that couldn't wear out or break anything no matter how hard they try.

Mavic are by far the worst aftermarket hubs on the planet, followed closely by Zipp.

I weigh 170. I'm not all that lightweight. I have a great relationship with my LBS, and they've been quite pleased with the Mavic stuff.

In BK and BroDeal's defense here, my LBS rails against the Sram Rival stuff as complete crap. Red seems ok to them though.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I weigh 170. I'm not all that lightweight. I have a great relationship with my LBS, and they've been quite pleased with the Mavic stuff.

In BK and BroDeal's defense here, my LBS rails against the Sram Rival stuff as complete crap. Red seems ok to them though.

Just an FYI, I visit about 30 shops a week and more than half are dumping Mavic and Zipp for quality reasons. Goes to show not everybody's on the same page.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Just an FYI, I visit about 30 shops a week and more than half are dumping Mavic and Zipp for quality reasons. Goes to show not everybody's on the same page.

Zipp, I can see. Their rims break if you look at them wrong.

Interesting to hear that about Mavic. The reason I don't buy their road wheels anymore is that they're just stupidly expensive. $2500 for the Carbone SLRs is insulting. It doesn't help that Mavic was dumping THAT EXACT SAME WHEEL except for the "exalith" surface last year on Bonktown for $999.

Silly.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Zipp, I can see. Their rims break if you look at them wrong.

Interesting to hear that about Mavic. The reason I don't buy their road wheels anymore is that they're just stupidly expensive. $2500 for the Carbone SLRs is insulting. It doesn't help that Mavic was dumping THAT EXACT SAME WHEEL except for the "exalith" surface last year on Bonktown for $999.

Silly.

Yep, for that price you could get into a set of ENVE wheels which are infinitely better than anything Mavic or Zipp could ever dream up. Better design, better parts, better builds.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Yep, for that price you could get into a set of ENVE wheels which are infinitely better than anything Mavic or Zipp could ever dream up. Better design, better parts, better builds.

Exactly. I'm happy with my ENVEs as well. Plus, they're only 25 miles away. I have the 65 clinchers. No problems, except for some rim overheating experienced on a downhill. Happens with carbon wheels. My friend melted his Reynolds 32s on the last descent at the Everest Challenge. Then again, I shouldn't be riding 65s on mountains anyway.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Exactly. I'm happy with my ENVEs as well. Plus, they're only 25 miles away. I have the 65 clinchers. No problems, except for some rim overheating experienced on a downhill. Happens with carbon wheels. My friend melted his Reynolds 32s on the last descent at the Everest Challenge. Then again, I shouldn't be riding 65s on mountains anyway.

No, you really shouldn't. That's a lot of moola melting away, and quickly. Before you know it you'll be replacing that wheel set in a couple seasons if you keep that practice up.

 

[veganrob]

Mavic are by far the worst aftermarket hubs on the planet, followed closely by Zipp.

Sorry but I must disagree with you here. I think Zipp are by far the worst on the market. Maybe because my store was 5 miles away so I saw so much more of them though. Whatever right.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Sorry but I must disagree with you here. I think Zipp are by far the worst on the market. Maybe because my store was 5 miles away so I saw so much more of them though. Whatever right.

I know your story veganrob, but others here may not. I feel your pain brother, many dealers here in CO are stuck with thousands of dollars in Zipp inventory and they can't get rid of them because the word is out how bad they really are. Sad state of affairs in the bike industry now, nothing is sacred anymore, too much mass produced cheap garbage that is more worthy of a dumpster rather than years of trouble free riding.

 

[BroDeal]

I don't know where exactly you're getting your 99% figure. I'm not extrapolating to all Sram here. I'm speaking from my own experience. I'm not saying all Red is great. I'm saying it has worked great for me. If you think I shouldn't buy it because others have had problems, that's your opinion. I'll go with my own experience with the product.

The figures are purely to make a point. It is ridiculous to think that your experience with very few examples of something trumps that of a bike shop that sees many times more. If problem rates are in the single digit percentages then your personal good experiences are pretty much worthless.

 

[LugHugger]

All Mavic rear hubs?

Good grief.

Exactly.

Service mine twice a year and they are as smooth as the day my team mate dropped them off.

Seems to me that if Mavic hubs are perceived as sucking relative to other hubs then other hubs are needlessly over-engineered for my needs.

 

[BroDeal]

Mavic are by far the worst aftermarket hubs on the planet, followed closely by Zipp.

Somebody explain Zipp to me. As long as I can remember Zipp has had sh!t hubs and it seems like every year or two they come out with a redesign to fix the previous iteration's problems.

It reminds me of Jeeps. They have been making them for about seven decades. They are relatively simple vehicles. You would think that they could iron out the problems in that amount of time. But the quality has always been crap.

Personally I have never had a problem with my Zipps, but I got them for a ridiculous price knowing that I could have issues, I don't train on them, and they only get used for the occasional triathlon. They don't get used enough to have problems.

Is this a case of stuff being engineered for occasional use failing when blingers think they need to roll around on it all the time?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Somebody explain Zipp to me. As long as I can remember Zipp has had sh!t hubs and it seems like every year or two they come out with a redesign to fix the previous iteration's problems.

It reminds me of Jeeps. They have been making them for about seven decades. They are relatively simple vehicles. You would think that they could iron out the problems in that amount of time. But the quality has always been crap.

Personally I have never had a problem with my Zipps, but I got them for a ridiculous price knowing that I could have issues, I don't train on them, and they only get used for the occasional triathlon. They don't get used enough to have problems.

Is this a case of stuff being engineered for occasional use failing when blingers think they need to roll around on it all the time?

Ha, right! The two areas where Zipp get the most blame are hubs and rims. Still use tiny bearings in their hubs to save a couple grams, now replaced by expensive ceramic bearings that aren't worth a dime in the long run. Rims are flawed by design, soft carbon, spoke holes are drilled instead of moulded like ENVE's, can't build 'em with high tension which is required for low spoke count race wheels. I think the max kgf that Zipp specifies is 120. Ok for a front, but a rear drive side at 120kgf is really soft. Lots of cracked rims and nipples pulled through Zipps.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

The figures are purely to make a point. It is ridiculous to think that your experience with very few examples of something trumps that of a bike shop that sees many times more. If problem rates are in the single digit percentages then your personal good experiences are pretty much worthless.

I'm not sure what point you're making, because your figures don't seem to comport to any real world data.

As far as my experiences being worthless, it depends on worthless to whom. Worthless to you? Again, I'm not here to sway your purchasing decision. I don't care what you buy. If you feel my experiences are an outlier, disregard them.

Worthless to me? No, since I will re-purchase products with which I have had a good experience. Seems to me that others here have had a good experiences with Mavic as well, so the outlier argument is not persuasive at all.

 

[veganrob]

Ha, right! The two areas where Zipp get the most blame are hubs and rims. Still use tiny bearings in their hubs to save a couple grams, now replaced by expensive ceramic bearings that aren't worth a dime in the long run. Rims are flawed by design, soft carbon, spoke holes are drilled instead of moulded like ENVE's, can't build 'em with high tension which is required for low spoke count race wheels. I think the max kgf that Zipp specifies is 120. Ok for a front, but a rear drive side at 120kgf is really soft. Lots of cracked rims and nipples pulled through Zipps.

Ha yea. Imagine, the two parts Zipp is responsible for and that is the problem. You guys just haven't drank enough of the Koolaid. 120kgf, rarely see that high. Front and non drive have no tension. Talked to Wain over at KHS about CXRay, there is no limit on those spokes. So why does Zipp tension so low? I got into big discussion with Josh Portner over at Zipp about it. He tried to give me all the BS about Sheldon Brown and blahblahblah. I
wish I had saved the emails. None of it applied to Zipp wheels however. It is so funny how they think their products are the best on the market. Crazy.
$1000 for the ceramic upgrade. What, Too much? Haha. OMG kills me.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Exactly.

Service mine twice a year and they are as smooth as the day my team mate dropped them off.

Seems to me that if Mavic hubs are perceived as sucking relative to other hubs then other hubs are needlessly over-engineered for my needs.

Do you really think it's normal to have to service hubs twice a year? If anything you may have it backwards, the "other" hubs out there that last for years without need for servicing boast the most simple designs, DT, Edco, Campy, Shimano, Miche, PMP, Phil, Alchemy, etc., etc., all have one thing in common,,,, simplicity in design.

 

[LugHugger]

Do you really think it's normal to have to service hubs twice a year? If anything you may have it backwards, the "other" hubs out there that last for years without need for servicing boast the most simple designs, DT, Edco, Campy, Shimano, Miche, PMP, Phil, Alchemy, etc., etc., all have one thing in common,,,, simplicity in design.

I didn't say that I had to or that the hubs needed servicing. I'm simply protecting my wheels and riding time. Would you recommend that a set of wheels being ridden roughly 7500 miles pa in my environment should be ridden for years without servicing?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I didn't say that I had to or that the hubs needed servicing. I'm simply protecting my wheels and riding time. Would you recommend that a set of wheels being ridden roughly 7500 miles pa in my environment should be ridden for years without servicing?

Well you're on Mavic's, that's my whole point, of course you need to keep doing preventative maintenance otherwise they'd blow up just like the 20 pair waiting for service at every bike shop I see in the Spring from exploded bearings and fried freehub bushings. Complete Junk Mavic is. I have an Edco Super G hubset from 2000, the year they were released, replaced bearings for the first time 3 years ago, only reason they last is because they use quality SKF bearings, where most mfg's cut corners. Now if Mavic actually designed something to last like this, I would be a believer, but no, I absolutely don't like anything Mavic, nor do I recommend their products to anyone.

Over engineered? C'mon Luggy, I realize people get upset when somebody is at odds with a product that they ride without problems, the sticking point here is that there are people commenting who work on this stuff for a living, on the other hand are the consumers who may have good luck with it and take exception when a mechanic has something bad to say. This has been going on since the inception of this forum three years ago, nothing has changed.

 

[LugHugger]

Well you're on Mavic's, that's my whole point, of course you need to keep doing preventative maintenance otherwise they'd blow up just like the 20 pair waiting for service at every bike shop I see in the Spring from exploded bearings and fried freehub bushings. Complete Junk Mavic is. I have an Edco Super G hubset from 2000, the year they were released, replaced bearings for the first time 3 years ago, only reason they last is because they use quality SKF bearings, where most mfg's cut corners. Now if Mavic actually designed something to last like this, I would be a believer, but no, I absolutely don't like anything Mavic, nor do I recommend their products to anyone.

Over engineered? C'mon Luggy, I realize people get upset when somebody is at odds with a product that they ride without problems, the sticking point here is that there are people commenting who work on this stuff for a living, on the other hand are the consumers who may have good luck with it and take exception when a mechanic has something bad to say. This has been going on since the inception of this forum three years ago, nothing has changed.

It's ok, my friend, I'm not upset my wheels work just fine. Look after them properly and they'll look after you! Any wheel that gets high mileage without regular TLC is going to blow up sooner rather than later around here.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

It's ok, my friend, I'm not upset my wheels work just fine. Look after them properly and they'll look after you! Any wheel that gets high mileage without regular TLC is going to blow up sooner rather than later around here.

Good point about taking care of your gear, that's a big point people seem to miss, weather it's durable or not. Supposedly ACS makes the worst freewheels, but I got 5+ years of commuting miles out of one simply because I kept the internals clean.

But no matter how dialed in and clean I kept my Red grouppo, it still sucked rotten eggs!!!

 

[Parera]

I admit I'm a SRAM hater, but let me qualify that by saying:

It doesn't bother me that SRAM is in the road market (some Campy fanboys don't like their presence at all).

Now, with that said, my issues really have to do with their approach to the bike business as a whole. They make minimal quality stuff (otherwise their warranty policy wouldn't work) while creating what is essentially a legalized ponsi scheme with their financial leveraging. It might work out for everyone, but if it doesn't the only people who make out in the end are the people at the top.

Finally, the group has terrible aesthetics. The arcade paddles just look dorky to me.

I think I won't hate on SRAM openly anymore; I will keep it to myself. After all, a drivetrain is just the part of a bike that make the important things (frame and wheels/tire) "go." I would ride a SRAM equipped Colnago if someone gave me a deal on one, though I would be extremely concerned about a risk of fire/explosion with that setup.

 

[ultimobici]

They make minimal quality stuff (otherwise their warranty policy wouldn't work)

Based on what? If it was as poor a quality as you claim companies wouldn't spec it as widely. Most customers buying bikes would not make the distinction between Sram and the bike manufacturer, so if parts were as crappy as you assert it impacts on them as much as Sram.

In January, which is a quiet month, I see 8 to 10 bikes a week built with Sram in our workshops. The mechanics don't have issues, full stop. Ive dealt with all warranty issues and in the last year Sram reared their head no more than Shimano or Campagnolo.

Sram seems to be the default choice for cyclocross, not a discipline where delicate unreliable kit is favoured. So anecdotally based opinion is rather prejudiced IMO.

FWIW I used Sram from when it came out. First Force, which I sold on when I upgraded to Red. I then converted to Campag when the changed to the new shape shifters. My Sram stuff was all sold on to mates who are all still using it with zero issues & no complaints. Maybe I was just lucky and got good ones, or maybe the majority is fine and the detractors are wrong. My money's on the latter.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

All Mavic rear hubs?

Good grief.

I clean and oil Mavic FTS-L hubs constantly. Their design with the plastic bushing, 2 pawls is poor and needs a lot of service. Otherwise they either scream like a banshee or don't freewheel at all. Get dry enough and the bushing gets out of round and needs replacement. Yep, easy to do, quick job but mavic has had this design for over a decade, acknowledge it's a poor design(FINALLY fixed it on some MTB wheels for 2012). For a wheel company(and wheels gotta have hubs), I think they could do better, particularly on multi thousand$ wheelsets, like Carbones and R-Sys.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Based on what? If it was as poor a quality as you claim companies wouldn't spec it as widely. Most customers buying bikes would not make the distinction between Sram and the bike manufacturer, so if parts were as crappy as you assert it impacts on them as much as Sram.

In January, which is a quiet month, I see 8 to 10 bikes a week built with Sram in our workshops. The mechanics don't have issues, full stop. Ive dealt with all warranty issues and in the last year Sram reared their head no more than Shimano or Campagnolo.

Sram seems to be the default choice for cyclocross, not a discipline where delicate unreliable kit is favoured. So anecdotally based opinion is rather prejudiced IMO.

FWIW I used Sram from when it came out. First Force, which I sold on when I upgraded to Red. I then converted to Campag when the changed to the new shape shifters. My Sram stuff was all sold on to mates who are all still using it with zero issues & no complaints. Maybe I was just lucky and got good ones, or maybe the majority is fine and the detractors are wrong. My money's on the latter.

"Based on what? If it was as poor a quality as you claim companies wouldn't spec it as widely."

Based on dollars..That's why the 'big boys' and mostly, the little guys, spec sram..cuz it's CHEAP'. sram has made the deal too good to refuse is why so many product managers are specing sram. How a lot of the really small guys can make it at all, be competitive. Geezz as a guy in a bike shop, you ought to know that.

I start with a fit, buy a frame and build the bike locally.

BUT for those who buy a bikeouttaabox, they see that the local shop/where they buy it, has no clue, so they come to me for service and I see a lot of problems with sram equipped bicycles. The Bianchi is just one example.

AND just like 8 and 9s 105 shimano, which didn't have the best rep. for durability, bike makers know most of these are going to be ridden very infrequently, so the low end stuff of yesteryear and sram(like apex) will probably be fine, albeit with the FD qhirkiness. But like pro team sponsorship, it's all about MONEY.

 

[ultimobici]

"Based on what? If it was as poor a quality as you claim companies wouldn't spec it as widely."

Based on dollars..That's why the 'big boys' and mostly, the little guys, spec sram..cuz it's CHEAP'. sram has made the deal too good to refuse is why so many product managers are specing sram. How a lot of the really small guys can make it at all, be competitive. Geezz as a guy in a bike shop, you ought to know that.

I know money comes into it, but it is not the only consideration. Cutting costs by using problematic parts is a sure way for me, the dealer, to fall out of love with your company and steer a customer to another brand. If my current employers had issues with Sram components we couldn't afford the damage to our reputation that duff parts would entail.

AND just like 8 and 9s 105 shimano, which didn't have the best rep. for durability, bike makers know most of these are going to be ridden very infrequently, so the low end stuff of yesteryear and sram(like apex) will probably be fine, albeit with the FD qhirkiness. But like pro team sponsorship, it's all about MONEY.

Not ridden much? I live & work in London. We have approximately 75000 cyclists commuting into London every day, many as a result of the Cyclescheme tax benefit. That, coupled with the increasing popularity of sportives, has encouraged a massive increase in £1000 road bike purchases. These bikes are Sram Apex, 105 or Mirage/Xenon equipped. They're not only ridden daily, 10 to 20 miles, but also frequently aren't babied at all. The resulting issues are the same for all makes, with no anomalies. If Sram was as feeble as you assert it would be shown up in the course of a typical British winter. But it is not, far from it.