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[Bustedknuckle]

I know money comes into it, but it is not the only consideration. Cutting costs by using problematic parts is a sure way for me, the dealer, to fall out of love with your company and steer a customer to another brand. If my current employers had issues with Sram components we couldn't afford the damage to our reputation that duff parts would entail.

Not ridden much? I live & work in London. We have approximately 75000 cyclists commuting into London every day, many as a result of the Cyclescheme tax benefit. That, coupled with the increasing popularity of sportives, has encouraged a massive increase in £1000 road bike purchases. These bikes are Sram Apex, 105 or Mirage/Xenon equipped. They're not only ridden daily, 10 to 20 miles, but also frequently aren't babied at all. The resulting issues are the same for all makes, with no anomalies. If Sram was as feeble as you assert it would be shown up in the course of a typical British winter. But it is not, far from it.

Somethings different. I'm not telling a story about the sram levers, et.all I have warrantied. In the heirarchy of road components, sram is a distant 3rd.



BUT product manager have been specing crappy stuff for years. Remember first/second gen. Gripshift? How about first gen RockShox Judy, with the plastic exploding right leg oil cylinder, Frankenstems?, Scott shocks? Mavic Zap/Mektronic(altho not cheap), Profile stems, American Classic seatposts.....long list.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

....If Sram was as feeble as you assert it would be shown up in the course of a typical British winter. But it is not, far from it.

Don't get it twisted ultimo, we're talking about ScRAM RED, not their lower groups, which are by every measure more reliable and better performing than RED.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

BUT product manager have been specing crappy stuff for years. Remember first/second gen. Gripshift? How about first gen RockShox Judy, with the plastic exploding right leg oil cylinder, Frankenstems?, Scott shocks? Mavic Zap/Mektronic(altho not cheap), Profile stems, American Classic seatposts.....long list.

Sure, it's a long list, but the difference between the products you listed above and Mavic is that the latter's still selling these products and doing so successfully. If they were such garbage, they'd have met the same fate as the products you listed above.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Don't get it twisted ultimo, we're talking about ScRAM RED, not their lower groups, which are by every measure more reliable and better performing than RED.

You're joking, right? The lower Sram groups are the ones with the issues. Not Red.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

You're joking, right? The lower Sram groups are the ones with the issues. Not Red.

oops, hit edit instead of reply.


Then why is just about every SRAM sponsored Pro Tour team replacing front and rear deralliuers with Force or Rival, because it's worse? Pffft, C'mon Moose, how many RED groups did you wrench on the last 2-3 years, one?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

oops, hit edit instead of reply.


Then why is just about every SRAM sponsored Pro Tour team replacing front and rear deralliuers with Force or Rival, because it's worse? Pffft, C'mon Moose, how many RED groups did you wrench on the last 2-3 years, one?

Haven't seen a single ProTour team replace their Red rear derailleurs with Force or Rival, much less "just about every SRAM sponsored ProTour team".

This is just nonsense. I'm starting to think this has more to do with the people wrenching on the product than the product itself.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

By the way, I can't believe I'm actually defending a company that has ties to Armstrong.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Haven't seen a single ProTour team replace their Red rear derailleurs with Force or Rival, much less "just about every SRAM sponsored ProTour team".

This is just nonsense. I'm starting to think this has more to do with the people wrenching on the product than the product itself.

Even Contadork used a full Apex group last year in the Giro for a bigger climbing range, there are examples everywhere of teams swapping RED parts for the lower end since the inception RED. Cassettes and chains are also swapped for Shimano almost across the board.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

By the way, I can't believe I'm actually defending a company that has ties to Armstrong.

Forget Lance for a sec, I can't believe you're defending a company that saturates the industry with really cheap crap.

 

[LugHugger]

Haven't seen a single ProTour team replace their Red rear derailleurs with Force or Rival, much less "just about every SRAM sponsored ProTour team".

This is just nonsense. I'm starting to think this has more to do with the people wrenching on the product than the product itself.

It's widely documented that the Red f/d is widely replaced in with Force in the peloton. Just check any CN Tech Special from PR/RvV and you'll see unbranded Force f/d's on SRAM-sponsored teams. It's a fact that most pro's consider Red the titanium cage as too flexible for accurate shifts under power.

I am surprised that it's being claimed that the Red r/d was swapped out. Don't remember seeing that.

RdV, Contador was not the only rider to swap to Apex for that Giro stage. Some SRAM pro's felt that the gearing range gave them competitive advantage over the Campag/Shimano teams. It had nothing to do with reliability in that instance.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

It's widely documented that the Red f/d is widely replaced in with Force in the peloton. Just check any CN Tech Special from PR/RvV and you'll see unbranded Force f/d's on SRAM-sponsored teams. It's a fact that most pro's consider Red the titanium cage as too flexible for accurate shifts under power.

I am surprised that it's being claimed that the Red r/d was swapped out. Don't remember seeing that.

RdV, Contador was not the only rider to swap to Apex for that Giro stage. Some SRAM pro's felt that the gearing range gave them competitive advantage over the Campag/Shimano teams. It had nothing to do with reliability in that instance.

Never said the use of Apex was for reliability, re-read my post.

 

[LugHugger]

Never said the use of Apex was for reliability, re-read my post.

Agreed, I didn't accuse you

 

[kiwirider]

It's widely documented that the Red f/d is widely replaced in with Force in the peloton. Just check any CN Tech Special from PR/RvV and you'll see unbranded Force f/d's on SRAM-sponsored teams.

Actually, according to James when I made the same comment about the FDs you see in the CN pro bike profiles being Force, they are pro only specials.

He jumped on me for posting exactly what you have posted and posted in reply to me that they are a "pro only" steel cage spec and that the "anodizing is different" from Force ... As the well known NZ beer adverts say "Yeah, right!" ...

I didn't push the point at the time ... so it'll be interesting to see if he jumps in on this thread ...

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

The funny thing about ScRAM front deralliuers is that no matter if it's RED, FORCE, RIVAL, or APEX, a FD downshift sounds like a .357 Magnum going off, CLICK, BANG! Even more amplified with carbon frames, also makes Campy's notorious mechanical feel seem buttery smooth.

 

[ultimobici]

Don't get it twisted ultimo, we're talking about ScRAM RED, not their lower groups, which are by every measure more reliable and better performing than RED.

Funny, I am probably one of the few guys on here who has actually had a Pro Tour bike in his stand.

It was a TRS Trek and had full Sram Red on it including the cassette & chain. Wheels were not race wheels but Bontrager Classics, yet the cassette was still a Red one.

It was obvious the bike was well used, but it still worked flawlessly.

WRT to the proportion of Red equipped bikes I work on, they are a minority. But if I compare my experience of Red to other top end kit, I have to say that Campag has had more issues with front mechs in the last ear. Had a Canyon with SR11 and the front mech cage had sheared. Sram - nada, niente, nowt!

We build bikes from scratch all day long. Many are Red or Force equipped, more and more are Apex and fewer now are Rival. If this stuff was garbage we'd surly see a return rate of some sort, but we don't.

I bought Force when it first came out in 2007 on the basis of a short spin around the block. That was replaced with Red once that came out a year later. The Force stuff was kept and was used to build a warranty Sirrus frame up for commuting in the rain and through the winter. The Red stuff was kept until 2009 when I converted to Campag for ergonomic reasons. The Force stuff was moved onto my cross bike for a while until I changed that to Campag too. All the Red & Force stuff I had was sold off, much of it to friends. None of them have ditched it or had any problems at all. I wonder why?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Funny, I am probably one of the few guys on here who has actually had a Pro Tour bike in his stand.

It was a TRS Trek and had full Sram Red on it including the cassette & chain. Wheels were not race wheels but Bontrager Classics, yet the cassette was still a Red one.

It was obvious the bike was well used, but it still worked flawlessly.

WRT to the proportion of Red equipped bikes I work on, they are a minority. But if I compare my experience of Red to other top end kit, I have to say that Campag has had more issues with front mechs in the last ear. Had a Canyon with SR11 and the front mech cage had sheared. Sram - nada, niente, nowt!

We build bikes from scratch all day long. Many are Red or Force equipped, more and more are Apex and fewer now are Rival. If this stuff was garbage we'd surly see a return rate of some sort, but we don't.

I bought Force when it first came out in 2007 on the basis of a short spin around the block. That was replaced with Red once that came out a year later. The Force stuff was kept and was used to build a warranty Sirrus frame up for commuting in the rain and through the winter. The Red stuff was kept until 2009 when I converted to Campag for ergonomic reasons. The Force stuff was moved onto my cross bike for a while until I changed that to Campag too. All the Red & Force stuff I had was sold off, much of it to friends. None of them have ditched it or had any problems at all. I wonder why?

Hey, great for you and your shop, whatever works I guess. But just take a walk around the internet a bit and you'll see that you're in a minority, more hate than love for ScRAM. I know some shops that deal heavily in ScRAM, their employees are nice, though misguided. Keep feeding the frog, take your leap, whatever, I sure as hell will not buy anymore from them. Their crap feels like toys, not a refined road group by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[ultimobici]

Just an FYI, I visit about 30 shops a week and more than half are dumping Mavic and Zipp for quality reasons. Goes to show not everybody's on the same page.

I'm intrigued, which manufacturer(s) do you rep for?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I'm intrigued, which manufacturer(s) do you rep for?

All wheel related.

Ambrosio
Velocity
H Plus Son
Edco
Sapim
Pillar
Unior

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Funny, I am probably one of the few guys on here who has actually had a Pro Tour bike in his stand.

It was a TRS Trek and had full Sram Red on it including the cassette & chain. Wheels were not race wheels but Bontrager Classics, yet the cassette was still a Red one.

It was obvious the bike was well used, but it still worked flawlessly.

WRT to the proportion of Red equipped bikes I work on, they are a minority. But if I compare my experience of Red to other top end kit, I have to say that Campag has had more issues with front mechs in the last ear. Had a Canyon with SR11 and the front mech cage had sheared. Sram - nada, niente, nowt!

We build bikes from scratch all day long. Many are Red or Force equipped, more and more are Apex and fewer now are Rival. If this stuff was garbage we'd surly see a return rate of some sort, but we don't.

I bought Force when it first came out in 2007 on the basis of a short spin around the block. That was replaced with Red once that came out a year later. The Force stuff was kept and was used to build a warranty Sirrus frame up for commuting in the rain and through the winter. The Red stuff was kept until 2009 when I converted to Campag for ergonomic reasons. The Force stuff was moved onto my cross bike for a while until I changed that to Campag too. All the Red & Force stuff I had was sold off, much of it to friends. None of them have ditched it or had any problems at all. I wonder why?

Just worked on Timmy Duggan's Cannondale(Liquidgas). Cannondale, sram red, Mavic wheels. He loves the frame..................................

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Just an FYI, I visit about 30 shops a week and more than half are dumping Mavic and Zipp for quality reasons. Goes to show not everybody's on the same page.

The only 'Zipp' I do is glue on tubies, overhaul the hubs(all the time..crappy small bearings) and true these things constantly...don't sell the wheels new.

Don't sell mavic wheels but do the same as Zipp above.

The only mavic rims I buy(I build all the wheels I sell-about 400-500 per year) are the 36 hole that DT don't make, like 415/465. And a few OpenSport rims..don't like the DT 450.

Build mostly DT, followed by Velocity(movin to Florida), a few mavic, Sun. Just built a set of Campag Record(old/freewheel/black oil over) to some Fiamme ERGALs...yowser those were soft.

Built some Nemesis for a cross setup..my, those were nice.

Any shop that sells a bunch of zipp and mavic do so cuz of the dollars involved but most don't see the increase service(free service) required on these wheels that they sell.

You sell a Zipp wheelset for $2000...bearings go south in 3 months...gonna charge for the service? Say goodbye to that customer.

 

[ultimobici]

Just worked on Timmy Duggan's Cannondale(Liquidgas). Cannondale, sram red, Mavic wheels. He loves the frame..................................

So he prefers something else, whoopeedoo. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with Red. He's a pro so he's paid to ride whatever the team is on. Personal preferences are rarely accommodated unless you're name's Basso or Nibali.

The fact that Quick-step are on SRAM is interesting. They are notoriously hard on equipment because of their classics focus so any shortcomings will be apparent.

More to the point, nice of you to infer that he doesn't like his Sram & Mavic. Bet his employers would be stoked that an ambassador for their brand slags them off in public!

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Just worked on Timmy Duggan's Cannondale(Liquidgas). Cannondale, sram red, Mavic wheels. He loves the frame..................................

You don't say. He rides for Cannondale and says nice things about his... Cannondale frame. I'm shocked.

Anyway, just saw the Cosmic Carbone SLEs. Nice looking wheels, but wait for it....$1700 for wheels that weigh 1755 grams. LOL. In case you're keeping score, that's $500 for the Exalith coating.

 

[ultimobici]

You don't say. He rides for Cannondale and says nice things about his... Cannondale frame. I'm shocked.

Anyway, just saw the Cosmic Carbone SLEs. Nice looking wheels, but wait for it....$1700 for wheels that weigh 1755 grams. LOL. In case you're keeping score, that's $500 for the Exalith coating.

Little known fact, Exalith treatment is done in the UK so there's a fair bit of toing & froing in the production of the wheels. Whether the $500 is worth it is another matter.

 

[Parera]

Just worked on Timmy Duggan's Cannondale(Liquidgas). Cannondale, sram red, Mavic wheels. He loves the frame..................................

I <3 Cannondale's geometry. Miles ahead of all the other big brands.

Anyways, carry on...

 

[42x16ss]

You don't say. He rides for Cannondale and says nice things about his... Cannondale frame. I'm shocked.

Anyway, just saw the Cosmic Carbone SLEs. Nice looking wheels, but wait for it....$1700 for wheels that weigh 1755 grams. LOL. In case you're keeping score, that's $500 for the Exalith coating.

He's also sponsored by Mavic and SRAM but doesn't talk them up....

I had a few weeks on an EVO shortly after the release and it is an AMAZING frame. Not really worth what Cannondale are charging - but still an excellent frame.

BTW, you would be surprised what many pros say about their bikes in private, trust me when I say it's not always positive.