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[Boeing]

So putting a chain catcher on a bike qualifies as a complete modification?

this is the logic that flows from peeps using secondhand information as their own idea and fronting as the master of good and bad in the industry here in on the internet

ironically, uh yea perhaps you did think of it first after all. who else would

 

[Bustedknuckle]

What mods do mechanics do to pro components?

Not mod so much but has been mentioned, lots of shimano replacement stuff, cables, housing, Fders, cogsets, chains....so the stuff actually has a bit of reliability.

The other part is that with a ton of bikes, need to look at each after every stage, sram bikes 'seem' to take a lot of work, to make them work well.

"why do sram pro team mechanics get paid more than the others?" type thing....cuz they have to work harder/longer.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Maybe I'm an outlier, but I haven't had problems with either my Red or the bb on my FSA SRM.

Are you guys doing trials on your road bikes?

 

[LugHugger]

Maybe I'm an outlier, but I haven't had problems with either my Red or the bb on my FSA SRM.

Are you guys doing trials on your road bikes?

My Force ran flawlessly too, I thought (apart from the clunky, over shifting FD). I tuned my bike twice a year when the bike got a pre- and post- season service.

Having run Ultegra for 6 months now, it needs a bit more tlc. It's more sensitive to bumps and knocks. The speed and precision of the shifting on Shimano is light years better than SRAM though.

 

[richwagmn]

My Force ran flawlessly too, I thought (apart from the clunky, over shifting FD). I tuned my bike twice a year when the bike got a pre- and post- season service.

Having run Ultegra for 6 months now, it needs a bit more tlc. It's more sensitive to bumps and knocks. The speed and precision of the shifting on Shimano is light years better than SRAM though.

Is this Ultegra 6700? That shifting is pretty futzy. I finally fixed mine by going to an aftermarket cable set. I could not for the life of me get it to reliability shift from all cogs before I swapped out the stock cable set.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Maybe I'm an outlier, but I haven't had problems with either my Red or the bb on my FSA SRM.

Are you guys doing trials on your road bikes?

No, but I jump my CX bike on a weekly basis during the summer months.

Most of the people that complain about ScRAM on this forum are industry, as you well know by now, some don't. In 2010 I rode a Red grouppo for about 4 months and hated it from the set up, at work I must have repaired 50+ Red equipped machines, needless to say they all suffered from the same things that I encountered. Some worse than others, but the usual BB, FD, chain, chain rings, shifting, durability issues that keeps getting mentioned by myself and others like Bustedknuckle.

There's always a reaction from certain folk here who aren't in the industry to question when someone like Bustedknuckle or I have something negative to say about a product. From a consumer standpoint it's hard to deal with, like nails on a chalk board to some when I say ScRAM Red is total garbage! Homies just don't realize how junk their stuff really is unless they've really dug into it.

I will go far as to say, would rather ride Campy Centaur or Shimano 105 over a Red grouppo.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Most of the people that complain about ScRAM on this forum are industry, as you well know by now, some don't. In 2010 I rode a Red grouppo for about 4 months and hated it from the set up, at work I must have repaired 50+ Red equipped machines, needless to say they all suffered from the same things that I encountered. Some worse than others, but the usual BB, FD, chain, chain rings, shifting, durability issues that keeps getting mentioned by myself and others like Bustedknuckle.

There's always a reaction from certain folk here who aren't in the industry to question when someone like Bustedknuckle or I have something negative to say about a product. From a consumer standpoint it's hard to deal with, like nails on a chalk board to some when I say ScRAM Red is total garbage! Homies just don't realize how junk their stuff really is unless they've really dug into it.

I'm not in the industry. But I've owned almost every group out there. I don't have a reason to support Sram. In fact, given my dislike of Armstrong, quite the opposite.

I have to tell you, I don't need to dig into it. I ride it. And I just don't have problems. What else can I say? Is it Super Record? No way. Is it as good or better than mechanical DA? To me, yes.

I've run into tons of "industry" people who have no idea what Yokozuna cables are. Or that you should put Aquaseal on your Dugasts or Grifos. Tons of people are "in the industry" but don't know their a$$ from their elbows. It's not whether you're in the industry or not, but rather if you know the product. I'm not saying I know the product at a manufacturing level. I just know that, after I made some changes to the kit, it's been working great. That's all I'm saying.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I'm not in the industry. But I've owned almost every group out there. I don't have a reason to support Sram. In fact, given my dislike of Armstrong, quite the opposite.

I have to tell you, I don't need to dig into it. I ride it. And I just don't have problems. What else can I say? Is it Super Record? No way. Is it as good or better than mechanical DA? To me, yes.

I've run into tons of "industry" people who have no idea what Yokozuna cables are. Or that you should put Aquaseal on your Dugasts or Grifos. Tons of people are "in the industry" but don't know their a$$ from their elbows. I'm not saying I know the product at a manufacturing level. I just know that, after I made some changes to the kit, it's been working great. That's all I'm saying.

I actually like double tap shifting, it's just too bad that the sum of the parts = cheap junk. One and done for this kid.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

No, but I jump my CX bike on a weekly basis during the summer months.

Most of the people that complain about ScRAM on this forum are industry, as you well know by now, some don't. In 2010 I rode a Red grouppo for about 4 months and hated it from the set up, at work I must have repaired 50+ Red equipped machines, needless to say they all suffered from the same things that I encountered. Some worse than others, but the usual BB, FD, chain, chain rings, shifting, durability issues that keeps getting mentioned by myself and others like Bustedknuckle.

There's always a reaction from certain folk here who aren't in the industry to question when someone like Bustedknuckle or I have something negative to say about a product. From a consumer standpoint it's hard to deal with, like nails on a chalk board to some when I say ScRAM Red is total garbage! Homies just don't realize how junk their stuff really is unless they've really dug into it.

I will go far as to say, would rather ride Campy Centaur or Shimano 105 over a Red grouppo.

This is a true story, believe it if you wish. Just had a customer bring in a NEW Bianchi cross with Force. Got it online, NEW and I have to say it works amazingly poorly. A lot is the assembly but I can't even MOVE the LH lever, move the FD. Something is causing so much drag that it won't move.

So, new stuff, gotta take it apart, get rid of the crappy 4mm der housing, trim it all, make it work as good as possible but I know the FD will be balky, stiff. Plus the flashy Alex wheels, the bearings feel like they are full of sand and one spoke is already unscrewing one of the whizbang RED alloy nipples.. I guess this post is about...

-sram
-mailorder
-lowend wheelsouttaboxes

I think the other part of this is if you are in or own a shop that gets new bikes in boxes, and you have to assemble them, the subsequent problems cost the shop money. No, bike makers don't reimburse shops for the assembly but if you build it right, and in short order, the bike comes back again and again cuz it is finicky, that costs $. Put ksyriums in this category as well.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

You guys put Haterade in your water bottles, don't you?

 

[Benotti69]

You guys put Haterade in your water bottles, don't you?

Comes already in powder form in the Sram bottles, just add water....

 

[ultimobici]

This is a true story, believe it if you wish. Just had a customer bring in a NEW Bianchi cross with Force. Got it online, NEW and I have to say it works amazingly poorly. A lot is the assembly but I can't even MOVE the LH lever, move the FD. Something is causing so much drag that it won't move.

So, new stuff, gotta take it apart, get rid of the crappy 4mm der housing, trim it all, make it work as good as possible but I know the FD will be balky, stiff. Plus the flashy Alex wheels, the bearings feel like they are full of sand and one spoke is already unscrewing one of the whizbang RED alloy nipples.. I guess this post is about...

-sram
-mailorder
-lowend wheelsouttaboxes

I think the other part of this is if you are in or own a shop that gets new bikes in boxes, and you have to assemble them, the subsequent problems cost the shop money. No, bike makers don't reimburse shops for the assembly but if you build it right, and in short order, the bike comes back again and again cuz it is finicky, that costs $. Put ksyriums in this category as well.

You're overlooking the fact that many bike companies using OE parts skimp on the little things like cabling. So you buy your Sram stuff OE but don't use quality housings, instead using no name garbage stuff that costs a fraction of the factory one. Couple that with poor initial installation and you've got a whole mess brewing. We've seen it with Boardman's Rival equipped bikes here in the UK for precisely this reason.
So your example is an illustration of two issues only.

Corner cutting by Bianchi
Corner cutting by mail-order company.

SFA to do with Sram.

I spend all day long with OE Campag, Sram & Shimano. We have zero issues with the componentry. In my previous job I was the head mechanic, overseeing 5 other wrenches in a Cannondale/Trek/Wilier/De Rosa dealership. All the warranty went through me and 9 times out of 10 was due to poor PDI, damage in transit or JRA (more commonly known as f*ckwitted customers).

Did have a couple of front mech issues on Sram equipped bikes though. Only problem was they weren't our bikes to begin with, had they been so there'd have been no problem with the front mech. Gotta love Evans Cycles "Mechanics", but then they eschew Cytech.......

 

[biker77]

This is a true story, believe it if you wish. Just had a customer bring in a NEW Bianchi cross with Force. Got it online, NEW and I have to say it works amazingly poorly. A lot is the assembly but I can't even MOVE the LH lever, move the FD. Something is causing so much drag that it won't move.

So, new stuff, gotta take it apart, get rid of the crappy 4mm der housing, trim it all, make it work as good as possible but I know the FD will be balky, stiff. Plus the flashy Alex wheels, the bearings feel like they are full of sand and one spoke is already unscrewing one of the whizbang RED alloy nipples.. I guess this post is about...

-sram
-mailorder
-lowend wheelsouttaboxes

I think the other part of this is if you are in or own a shop that gets new bikes in boxes, and you have to assemble them, the subsequent problems cost the shop money. No, bike makers don't reimburse shops for the assembly but if you build it right, and in short order, the bike comes back again and again cuz it is finicky, that costs $. Put ksyriums in this category as well.

Finicky is different than junk. Junk to me implies failure while finicky is constant adjustment like my fsa crankset that constantly creaks. Giving a bolt a turn with a torque wrench once in a while is not a big deal while constant replacement would be much more concerning. Which do do you find the most?

Also, I don`t get the hating on Kysriums. I have never had a problem with elites, other than the crappy aerodynamics.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I've ridden Ksyriums for many years. Never a single problem. Same with The Carbones. Same with the Crossmax SLs.

My only complaint against Mavic is that they charge outrageous prices for their wheels now. $2450 for a Carbone SLR which is just an Open Pro rim with a fairing? Ridiculous.

Anyone who has not figured out that switching their Sram Red cables to Yokozuna will make a huge difference, I'll say it again. I don't know why, but they work superbly.

So far, the only group I have every disliked was the Sram XO triple group on my old Ellsworth Truth. Shifted like garbage. Switched to the new XTR on my Scalpel. Butter.

 

[Parera]

I think you've missed Bustedknuckle's previous posts on the seemingly endless parade of warrantied SRAM parts he's had to deal with. Heck, my LBS during the summer is sending loads of their mountain crap back to SRAM to get warrantied because the stuff is *gasp* junk. But hey, it's cheap and has a good warranty, who cares if it's actually a good product.

 

[BroDeal]

I've ridden Ksyriums for many years. Never a single problem. Same with The Carbones. Same with the Crossmax SLs.

My only complaint against Mavic is that they charge outrageous prices for their wheels now. $2450 for a Carbone SLR which is just an Open Pro rim with a fairing? Ridiculous.

Anyone who has not figured out that switching their Sram Red cables to Yokozuna will make a huge difference, I'll say it again. I don't know why, but they work superbly.

So far, the only group I have every disliked was the Sram XO triple group on my old Ellsworth Truth. Shifted like garbage. Switched to the new XTR on my Scalpel. Butter.

A sample of one does not mean jack. An LBS that sees a lot of stuff will have a much better idea of what your odds are of having problems and they will be able to compare those odds to competing products.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I think you've missed Bustedknuckle's previous posts on the seemingly endless parade of warrantied SRAM parts he's had to deal with. Heck, my LBS during the summer is sending loads of their mountain crap back to SRAM to get warrantied because the stuff is *gasp* junk. But hey, it's cheap and has a good warranty, who cares if it's actually a good product.

Ok, chief. Contador keeps winning on it. Because it's junk.

Am I supposed to say it's junk because somebody has had issues with it but I haven't had a single problem?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

A sample of one does not mean jack. An LBS that sees a lot of stuff will have a much better idea of what your odds are of having problems and they will be able to compare those odds to competing products.

Ultimobici has a bike shop as well, if I'm not mistaken, and hasn't experienced the same problems. Neither have I.

Look, don't let me interrupt the whine-fest here. I don't have a dog in this fight, other than just pointing out my own experience. If you think Sram is junk, don't buy it. It's not like I care what your purchase habits are.

But the argument that "your experience doesn't matter because joe bike shop says differently" is just stupid. I'll trust my own experience with the product, thank you very much.

 

[Straßenrennen]

r JRA (more commonly known as f*ckwitted customers).

More commonly known as IBM sydrome...

 

[BroDeal]

But the argument that "your experience doesn't matter because joe bike shop says differently" is just stupid. I'll trust my own experience with the product, thank you very much.

WTF! Say you have two products. 90% of product A works great but 10% slipped through QC and is crap. 99% of product B works great but 1% is crap. What is your good experience with one or even several of either of the products going to tell you other than you were lucky enough to get in the 90% of product A or the 99% of product B? A few data points tell you nothing. You need to have experience with a large number of examples of both products to conclusively say that product B has much better quality control than product A.

 

[LugHugger]

Ultimobici has a bike shop as well, if I'm not mistaken, and hasn't experienced the same problems. Neither have I.

Look, don't let me interrupt the whine-fest here. I don't have a dog in this fight, other than just pointing out my own experience. If you think Sram is junk, don't buy it. It's not like I care what your purchase habits are.

But the argument that "your experience doesn't matter because joe bike shop says differently" is just stupid. I'll trust my own experience with the product, thank you very much.

For what it's worth I have a ridden a second-hand pair of Ksyrium wheels for 12,500 miles on with zero issues. They have run straight and true for over 2 years. I weigh 75 kgs and ride almost exclusively on roads with broken surfaces and debris on them in a temperate coastal environment ie wet, sandy, salty and windy so I need my wheels to be tough and reliable.

I would not hesitate to recommend Ksyrium SL's to anybody who asked me for a strong, lightweight, every day wheelset.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

You're overlooking the fact that many bike companies using OE parts skimp on the little things like cabling. So you buy your Sram stuff OE but don't use quality housings, instead using no name garbage stuff that costs a fraction of the factory one. Couple that with poor initial installation and you've got a whole mess brewing. We've seen it with Boardman's Rival equipped bikes here in the UK for precisely this reason.
So your example is an illustration of two issues only.

Corner cutting by Bianchi
Corner cutting by mail-order company.

SFA to do with Sram.

I spend all day long with OE Campag, Sram & Shimano. We have zero issues with the componentry. In my previous job I was the head mechanic, overseeing 5 other wrenches in a Cannondale/Trek/Wilier/De Rosa dealership. All the warranty went through me and 9 times out of 10 was due to poor PDI, damage in transit or JRA (more commonly known as f*ckwitted customers).

Did have a couple of front mech issues on Sram equipped bikes though. Only problem was they weren't our bikes to begin with, had they been so there'd have been no problem with the front mech. Gotta love Evans Cycles "Mechanics", but then they eschew Cytech.......

Update...did the bike yesterday, new 5mm der housing, not inside the crappy FSA handlebar(on a cross bike=dum)..works fine 'except' the RH shift lever won't return to center, shift, gets stuck out, Took it apart and it seems to be in the lever machining or something...warranty, of course, another sram lever, which will keep the gent off the bike for another week..sorry, not impressed by sram road.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Ok, chief. Contador keeps winning on it. Because it's junk.

Am I supposed to say it's junk because somebody has had issues with it but I haven't had a single problem?

What some pro uses is not an indication of anything. Truck full of spares, legion of mechanics, they ride a 'new' drivetrain and/or bike every stage.

If you haven't had any problems, good for you but some of us that see bike stuff everyday see somewhat bigger sample size.

It's pretty easy to identify that stuff that isn't reliable, needs a lot of maintenance(like all mavic rear hubs) and the stuff that breaks, in need of warranty.For 2011, A couple of Campagnolo bits..carbon front ders mostly, a 6700 STI lever and a bunch of sram levers, 3 rear ders, 2 sets of cranks, 3 BBs(PFBB30), 2 MTB shifters(triggers), one BB7 caliper...earlier MANY Avid canti brakes....finally they just started sending us chains instead of brake cantis.

Use, buy what ya want but sram is mediocre stuff, well marketed. I prefer to not sell it cuz it costs me $.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

WTF! Say you have two products. 90% of product A works great but 10% slipped through QC and is crap. 99% of product B works great but 1% is crap. What is your good experience with one or even several of either of the products going to tell you other than you were lucky enough to get in the 90% of product A or the 99% of product B? A few data points tell you nothing. You need to have experience with a large number of examples of both products to conclusively say that product B has much better quality control than product A.

I don't know where exactly you're getting your 99% figure. I'm not extrapolating to all Sram here. I'm speaking from my own experience. I'm not saying all Red is great. I'm saying it has worked great for me. If you think I shouldn't buy it because others have had problems, that's your opinion. I'll go with my own experience with the product.

So far, we have two shop owners. BK and Ultimo. The former has problems with Sram. The latter doesn't. I've had no problems with Sram. I also haven't had a single problem with Mavics. If you want to convince yourself that Sram is crap because BK says so, fine. I have 2 Red kits, both work great.

I've owned 3 pairs of Ksyriums, 2 Carbones, 2 Aksiums, countless Crossmax pairs. Not one problem. Not one. I hate to tell you this, but that doesn't equal a sample size of 1.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

It's pretty easy to identify that stuff that isn't reliable, needs a lot of maintenance(like all mavic rear hubs)

All Mavic rear hubs?

Good grief.