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Quinn Simmons is the new Quinn Simmons

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Bolder

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Logic-is-your-friend said:
Evenepoel had just so much of a buffer, so expecting Simmons and Brenner to close the gap with the pro peloton at the same age, was dumb.
Click to expand...

^^This is what I was getting at. What does Simmons get out of killing himself at age 20 just to rack up a bunch of top 20s and a few small wins? Sure, it's more exciting to race on the WT than the U23s, but maybe he'd have done better to beat up on the U23s, stretch himself a bit in shorter races that might not suit him, learn more racecraft etc.

Remco is a unique rider who brings a skill set that is already lethal in some races -- whereas there are a bunch of strong classics riders, even a fair number who can also climb a bit, so while QS has undeniable talent at a young age, he's not bringing anything new to the table that the peloton hasn't seen before.

In fact if you had to project the best Quinn Simmons he can be, you might point to a Colbrelli 2021 -- a sturdy classics rider, not too heavy so they can get over hills, with a good kick.
 
tobydawq

tobydawq

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Bolder said:
^^This is what I was getting at. What does Simmons get out of killing himself at age 20 just to rack up a bunch of top 20s and a few small wins? Sure, it's more exciting to race on the WT than the U23s, but maybe he'd have done better to beat up on the U23s, stretch himself a bit in shorter races that might not suit him, learn more racecraft etc.

Remco is a unique rider who brings a skill set that is already lethal in some races -- whereas there are a bunch of strong classics riders, even a fair number who can also climb a bit, so while QS has undeniable talent at a young age, he's not bringing anything new to the table that the peloton hasn't seen before.

In fact if you had to project the best Quinn Simmons he can be, you might point to a Colbrelli 2021 -- a sturdy classics rider, not too heavy so they can get over hills, with a good kick.
Click to expand...

What would he gain from riding U23 if his level is WT?
 
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SafeBet

SafeBet

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Andrea Piccolo had something interesting to say about the sudden jump from Jr to pro ranks. According to him, it is not true that u23 are the best environments to grow as a rider, or at least not always. Many u23 teams want to win races, hence tend to exploit their riders instead of letting them grow gradually. WT teams are signing more and more jr talents because

A) they don't want other teams to eventually sign them (and this was obvious)
B) they want to have full control on their training and racing schedule for a steadier development

This doesn't necessarily apply to Simmons, who I believe chose Trek specifically because the team would let him decide his own schedule and ride Monuments even in his first year as a pro. But it might be true for others. Piccolo even decided to leave Astana because the team was worried about his health and wouldn't let him ride anything.

Now Piccolo is certainly not a model of how to develop an extremely talented, young rider, but perhaps he has a point on this. Sometimes skipping the u23 category is not bad for the development of a rider.
 
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Bolder

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tobydawq said:
What would he gain from riding U23 if his level is WT?
Click to expand...

He could learn racecraft with less pressure, ride shorter races, try some different types of races. Should a rider whose body is still developing be riding 200-250k races and training at WT-intensity levels?

This is an interesting study: https://science-cycling.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Leo-1.0.pdf. It just talks about the physiological differences between elite and U23 riders at one Tour of the Alpes.

I guess it's true now that U23 has become a second option for riders who aren't good enough to make the jump to WT after the juniors, and I can't blame riders who can earn a WT contract for getting one. But if riders like Simmons and Ayuso aren't going to win anything signficant until they're 22-23 anyway, I don't know if there's any advantage to joining the WT at age 18 except the money.
 
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hayneplane

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Cycling has always been an outlier in most sports for people becoming elite at much older ages than other sports. Tennis, Swimming and even Athletics have seen competitors emerge as truly world class at under 18. The recognition of talent at an earlier stage these days is a reflection partly of culture and of the instant data available now in training and races that demonstrates beyond doubt that a rider is physically ready to a) ride longer races and b0 genuinely compete for strong results in the pro ranks.

I think the under 23s is redundant and should just be under 21s instead as there are few examples of a rider in the last decade staying right to the end of their under 23 eligibility and making an impact in the elites afterwards (maybe only Foss).
 
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SafeBet

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He has definitely made a jump in performance compared to last year. I remember thinking he would ride a good Tirreno in 2021 after his excellent Strade Bianche. He tried an attack in stage 2 or 3 which lasted maybe 10 minutes and then completely disappeared for the rest of the race. Different story in 2022 clearly.

I actually believe he's better suited to hills than cobbles but I might be proven wrong soon.
 
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AlfaLum

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SafeBet said:
He has definitely a jump in performance compared to last year. I remember thinking he would ride a good Tirreno in 2021 after his excellent Strade Bianche. He tried an attack in stage 2 or 3 which lasted maybe 10 minutes and then completely disappeared for the rest of the race. Different story in 2022 clearly.

I actually believe he's better suited to hills than cobbles but I might be proven wrong soon.
Click to expand...

I think you are right that hills might suit him better than cobbles. However, it would be great if he can make an impact on the cobbles this year as well.

Trek looking very good for the Flanders classics at the moment. Pedersen seems to be in the shape of his life. Simmons has made the extra step, and I am also seriously impressed by how Kirsch is riding. Add Stuyven to it, and I think Trek might well be in for a great couple of weeks.
 
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Oldermanish

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Bolder said:
He could learn racecraft with less pressure, ride shorter races, try some different types of races. Should a rider whose body is still developing be riding 200-250k races and training at WT-intensity levels?

This is an interesting study: https://science-cycling.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Leo-1.0.pdf. It just talks about the physiological differences between elite and U23 riders at one Tour of the Alpes.

I guess it's true now that U23 has become a second option for riders who aren't good enough to make the jump to WT after the juniors, and I can't blame riders who can earn a WT contract for getting one. But if riders like Simmons and Ayuso aren't going to win anything signficant until they're 22-23 anyway, I don't know if there's any advantage to joining the WT at age 18 except the money.
Click to expand...
Simmons does look fully grown to the point he can handle longer races. The idea of racecraft and learning how to win, particularly when you a favored rider is something. Remco being reserved from the Tour is a good example of lessons learned and taking a more gradual approach. QS needed to learn that the voices in his head don't actually need to be broadcast. That is something, too.
 
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Bolder

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yaco said:
I'll cut him some slack as it's his first TDF, however he needs to more effectively plan his days - There is enough ability to win a stage if he judiciously uses his power.
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This, exactly. It's nice to show the jersey day in and day, but in the end it was sort of pointless for a rider of his obvious talents. It's too bad that Trek didn't really have much of a team outside of Mads.
 
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memyselfandI

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His basic position in a bike is very high, it's an area where it's possible to earn huge energy savings for three weeks, but it's difficult as it very quickly can make different kinda problems in other areas.

I saw him late last year in a same training ride group with Evenepoel. There is a size difference but even base riding positioning on a bike is very different between these two.

I bet he learned this and other related things in that very stage of this Tour when he was last man to peel of behind WVA from escape group.
 
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