Race Design Thread

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The mountains rear their vicious, vicious heads once more as the rouleurs and sprinters huddle together for security against the time limit, and the TT-oriented GC contenders have to test their mettle against inevitable losses as we reach the business end of the race...

Stage 18: Tondela - Alto de São Macário, 143km



Though this stage is short, it contains perhaps the most bang for your buck in the race, with a selection of climbs, all nasty, and finishing with a loop that takes in Portugal's most underappreciated beast, the climb up to the Capela de São Macário. The péloton will face most of this climb twice, once looping back down into São Pedro do Sul, once continuing for the last 250m to the top. The name of the game is climbing, and if you ain't playing climbing you're in the wrong place - and with four climbs averaging over 8%, and the final climb - both times - being 9km at over 9%, you had better be playing climbing. The short distance may allow the heavier riders to limit their losses, but the number of climbs and their severity will see their mettle - and their legs - tested to the max.



Climbs:
Serra do Caramulo (Barreiro de Besteiros)(cat.1) 9,3km @ 8,2%
Serra do Caramulo (Muna)(cat.1) 7,7km @ 8,2%
Serra de São Macário (Portal do Inferno)(cat.1) 9,2km @ 9,1%
Alto de São Macário (cat.1) 9,4km @ 9,2%

Given my postings elsewhere, I guess you had to expect the climb of São Macário to crop up somewhere! Beforehand we're doing two of the many routes up to the Serra do Caramulo, and choosing some of the toughest, with some roads in less than ideal condition.

Serra do Caramulo:


Alto de São Macário:
 
canyonball said:
Hey, I've climbed Senhora do Monte. It's a fun little climb that can really break your legs. 6,7 % are a bit deceiving as it is done on "steps". It would need a resurface though, because the last 2 km are in pretty bad shape.

Have you gone to the east, there is another interesting climb. Also short and explosive. Serra de Alvaiázere. This one with a great asphalt and a great view from the top. The fact it doesn't have a lot of curves on the thoughest part adds to the challenge, as you see the pain ahead of you pretty much all of the time. (found the data: 7,6 km at 5,9 %. Last km and a half at 13%). It would have to be a MTF has there's only one road to the top, finish in .a little square

Of corse you can also find a lot of these type of climbs in Serra d'Aire e Candeeiros, around Porto de Mós, my favourite being the road up to Grutas de Santo António (Alto de Alvados)

Montejunto back at the elite level is a good sight too:)
Alvaiazere is the hardest climb I've done. It always kill me. I've done Torre (Covilhã and Manteigas), Lousã,.... and it's the one where I suffer the most.

By the way, I think your numbers for the climb are wrong, or maybe you're thinkin of another ascent which I find weird since there's only one way to the top. This is the one I'm talking about:

http://www.mapmyride.com/route/az/portugal/997127971742371045

3.3km @ 8.9%

The road to Grutas de Santo Antonio from Minde has that first 2km at 10% that kill you for the (easy) rest of the climb:)
 
Oct 17, 2010
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trevim said:
3.3km @ 8.9%
Well, I'm not saying those numbers are exact, but ...It's all about your starting point. There's only one road to the top, but there is more than one way to get to that road. I've used the data in gpsies, starting from Bouxinhas (which is the parcours I've taken). Obviously that part is only an appetizer, the road you talk about is the real treat.

BTW, that user on gpsies (PremiosMontanha Portugal) has a vast menu of climbs around Portugal. Going through those files it's a nice way to spend your time and find new parcours, if you're into that. (Right now I'm out for months, so I can only ride them in dreams).

So adding you're knowledge from the area and your username...are we talking about Trevim, Serra da Lousã? I've never climbed that one, although from what I've read it could be a good warm-up for bigger things on Volta a Portugal (long, but not really that steep, right?).
 
canyonball said:
Well, I'm not saying those numbers are exact, but ...It's all about your starting point. There's only one road to the top, but there is more than one way to get to that road. I've used the data in gpsies, starting from Bouxinhas (which is the parcours I've taken). Obviously that part is only an appetizer, the road you talk about is the real treat.

BTW, that user on gpsies (PremiosMontanha Portugal) has a vast menu of climbs around Portugal. Going through those files it's a nice way to spend your time and find new parcours, if you're into that. (Right now I'm out for months, so I can only ride them in dreams).

So adding you're knowledge from the area and your username...are we talking about Trevim, Serra da Lousã? I've never climbed that one, although from what I've read it could be a good warm-up for bigger things on Volta a Portugal (long, but not really that steep, right?).
Ah now I see where those numbers came from.

Yes, we're talking about Trevim, Serra da Lousã. Starting from Lousã to the very top is roughly 25km @ 4% and very steady. So it's obviously an easy climb but it gives the impression of climbing and is very scenic so it's one I like a lot.

About the warm up, I don't really know but maybe for a stage to Torre from Coimbra, they could climb Lousã (not the whole of it but the first 20km) in the beggining and maybe add a few more climbs on the way to the finish with Alto do Carrazedo and then Torre from Seia.
 
Wow, that's a HARD race. Certainly one for those who keep mentioning the lack of true "mountain" classics. I guess if Kruth was considered too small you could always descend down towards Lautenbach and finish in Buhl or Guebwiller, not too much further from the final summit - and I think there are enough climbs in there to mean that it shouldn't kill the racing much.
 
May 24, 2010
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Tour of Scotland

Been messing about with this for a couple of weeks now and only now dcome up with something I'm happy with. Problem is for all the scenery we have we don't have a surfeit of longish steepish climbs but some fine punchy stuff. I have unashamedly tried to link my homes and favourite places so it's just as well they fit!! I've tried to get the essence of our landscape into this and the character of our countryside.

Anyway as it's my fantasy tour it's 12 days with a single rest day, transfers are not that bad. It's been done on map-my-ride and therefore the climbs are based on their criteria (there are some that are probably more suitably linked but we'll go with what it says. Unfortunatly its in miles but I'll convert them. Ive gone on memory on most of these roads and their condition, they are rideable by a largish peloton. If others know differently, fair enough, been a while since Ive been near a lot of them.

The tour covers 1082.3 miles or 1741.8Km and has 45,754 Feet or 13,946m of climbing.

Anyway in GT mode, the stats
1 MTF
1 ITT
5 Sprints (maybe)
4 puncheur type stages

cat 1 - 1
Cat 2 - 4
Cat 3 - 13
Cat 4 - 6
Cat 5 - 50.... (in MapMyRide criteria)

Stage 1 - Irvine to Ayr 118.9miles/191.4Km
Stage 2 - Peebles to Edinburgh 93.8/151
Stage 3 - Callander to Perth 112.7/181.4
Stage 4 - Blairgowrie to Aberdeen 150/241.4
Stage 5 - Aberdeen ITT 17.21/27.7104.9
Stage 6 - Stonehaven to Cairngorm MTF 122.2/196.7
Rest day Inverness
Stage 7 - Inverness to Applecross 84.33/135.7
Stage 8 - Oban to Dunoon 125.78/202.4
Stage 9 - Dunoon to Helensburgh 77.31/124.4
Stage 10 - Helensburgh to Stirling 75.72/121.9
Stage 11 - Stirling to Glasgow 104.9/168.9

I'll post maps and profiles over the subsequent posts.
 
May 24, 2010
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Stage 1
Irvine to Ayr (I grew up in Ayrshire, wouldn't be right not to start here)


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Stage 2
Peebles to Edinburgh (lovely finishing drag up the Royal Mile to Edinburgh Castle....some cobbles there as well if memory serves)


Profile
 
May 24, 2010
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Stage 3
Callendar to Perth (Love this area)

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Stage 4
Rejigged last 30 miles or so, much punchier and taken out the rediculous 10.6% climb that really isn't there!!

Climbs
 
May 24, 2010
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Stage 5
Aberdeen ITT



Longer ITT, original was too short.
Stage 6
Stonehaven to Cairngorm Aviemore MTF (I live in Stoney....couldn't not start something there)


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May 24, 2010
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Stage 7
Inverness to Applecross (Purely fantasy be impossible to use because Applecross is so small however you have to use the Bealach na Ba road, Sea level to 2000ft and back in 9 miles)

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Stage 8
Oban to Dunoon

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May 24, 2010
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Stage 9
Dunoon to Helensburgh (include the Rest and be Thankful Classic Scottish road)

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Stage 10
Helensburgh to Stirling (unless it's been surfaced its a short cobbled climb to the finish)

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May 24, 2010
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Stage 11
Bannockburn to Glasgow (Look up the battle....;-) )


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There are limitations of course, no way you could take a big race to Applecross and our roads and the lack of ability at closing them for bike events is a joke, never mind it's all hypothetical....mind you..TOUR OF BRITAIN....are you reading this????

As I say it's my fantasy tour, enjoy.
 
Library post

Fictional Stage Races (Germany)

Deutschlandrundfahrt (Bavarianrider) Stage 1 Stage 2 Stage 3 Stage 4 Stage 5 Stage 6 Stage 7 Stage 8 Stage 9 Stage 10 Stage 11 Stage 12 Stage 13 Stage 14 Stage 15 Stage 16 Stage 17 Stage 18 Stage 19 Stage 20 Stage 21

Deutschlandrundfahrt (lemon cheese cake) Prologue Stage 1 Stage 2 Stage 3 Stage 4 Stage 5 Stage 6 Stage 7 Stage 8 Stage 9 Stage 10 Stage 11 Stage 12 Stage 13 Stage 14 Stage 15 Stage 16 Stage 17 Stage 18 Stage 19 Stage 20a Stage 20b

Deutschlandrundfahrt (Libertine Seguros) Stage 1 Stage 2 Stage 3 Stage 4 Stage 5 Stage 6 Stage 7 Stage 8 Stage 9 Stage 10 Stage 11 Stage 12 Stage 13 Stage 14 Stage 15 Stage 16 Stage 17 Stage 18 Stage 19 Stage 20 Stage 21

Deutschlandtour (Descender) Stage 1 Stage 2 Stage 3 Stage 4 Stages 5-6 Stages 7-10

Deutschlandtour (roundabout) Entire parcours

Hessen Rundfahrt (Libertine Seguros) Stage 1 Stage 2 Stage 3 Stage 4 Stage 5

Lausitz Rundfahrt (Libertine Seguros) Stage 1 Stage 2 Stage 3 Stage 4

Niedersachsen Rundfahrt (Progsprach) Stage 1 Stage 2 Stage 3 Stage 4 Stage 5

More will be added here as they are posted. All library posts are linked from the original post in the thread.
 
Library post

Fictional One-Day Races
Arctic Circle Trophy-GP Tromsø (Libertine Seguros)
Antigua-Lago Atitian (karlboss)
Australian Alps Classic (karlboss)
Cape Breton Highlands Classic (GeraintTooFast)
Circuito d'Olot-Memorial Xavier Tondó (Libertine Seguros)
Circuito do Porto (Libertine Seguros)
Clasica Panoramica Puerto Rico (SetonHallPirate)
Clasica Puerto Rico (SetonHallPirate)
Classique des Alpes (roundabout)
Classique des Alpes-Maritimes (lemon cheese cake)
Dollerup Hills Classic (Netserk)
Donggang-Dalian (craig1985)
Elbe-Saale Klassik (Lupetto)
Erzgebirge Classic (roundabout)
Erzgebirge Classic (versions 2 & 3) (roundabout)
GP Bristol (RownhamHill)
GP Ciudad de Gijón (Asturiano)
GP Côte d'Or (rghysens)
GP Lac Léman (togo95)
GP Prese del Montello (Eshnar)
Grafton-Inverell (Alternate) (karlboss)
Guingamp-Guingamp (togo95)
London-Brighton (TMP401)
Lorient-Saint Brieuc (togo95)
Manchester-Halifax (Geraint Too Fast)
Manx GP Cavendish (CasperVg)
Nove Mesto-Bradlo (togo95)
Pyrenean Cycling Classic (SetonHallPirate)
Red Bull Superclassic (SetonHallPirate)
Ronde van Gelderland (LPP68!)
Rund um Karlsruhe (screaming fist)
St Thomas Carribean Classic (SetonHallPirate)
Swaziland CycloChallenge (CasperVg)
Tour des Vosges (roundabout)
Tour du Luberon (Christian)
Tour of Cornwall (TeamSkyFans)
Tour of Nullarbor (King of the Wolds)
Tour of the Rhön Mountains (roundabout)
Transfăgărășăn (bicing)
Vuelta a Cantabria (Libertine Seguros)
Vuelta a Ceúta (Libertine Seguros)
Wellington GP (Progsprach)

More will be added here as they are posted. All library posts are linked from the original post in the thread.
 
Library post

Fantasy stages for existing races
Giro d'Italia: Belfast - Belfast (Leadbelly)
Giro d'Italia: Belfast - Belfast (togo95)
Giro d'Italia: Belluno - Passo Pordoi (Netserk)
Giro d'Italia: Bolzano - San Genisio Atesino (User Guide)
Giro d'Italia: Bruneck-Brunico - Monte Crostis (SetonHallPirate)
Giro d'Italia: Cuneo - Sant'Anna di Vinadio (Netserk)
Giro d'Italia: Genova - Genova (CRI) (Eshnar)
Giro d'Italia: Isola - Colle Agnello (Krzysztof_O)
Giro d'Italia: Lasa - Passo dello Stelvio (SetonHallPirate)
Giro d'Italia: Merano - Rettenbachferner (togo95)
Giro d'Italia: Ovaro - Passo Pordoi (Another Dutch Guy)
Giro d'Italia: Ventimiglia - Sampeyre (togo95)

Tour de France 2015: all mountain stages (roundabout)
Tour de France 2015: Gap - Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne (fauniera)
Tour de France: Barcelonnette - Menton (netserk)
Tour de France: Belfort - Colmar (Netserk)
 
Library post

Modifications to existing one-day races
Clasica San Sebastián (Another Dutch Guy)
Dwars Door Vlaanderen (Echoes)
Giro di Lombardia (Eshnar)
Giro di Lombardia (Netserk)
Giro di Lombardia II (Netserk)
Giro di Lombardia (SetonHallPirate)
La Flèche Wallonne (roundabout)
La Flèche Wallonne (togo95)
Paris-Bruxelles part 1 part 2 (Echoes)
Paris-Bruxelles (Libertine Seguros)
Ronde van Vlaanderen (fauniera)
Ronde van Vlaanderen II (fauniera)
Ronde van Vlaanderen (lemon cheese cake)
Ronde van Vlaanderen (rghysens)
Tour of Noord-Holland (Another Dutch Guy)
Vattenfall Cyclassics (Progsprach)

National/World Championships & Olympic courses
Aigle (SetonHallPirate)
Aurillac (LaFlorecita)
Banyuls-sur-Mer (Netserk)
Bilbao (Libertine Seguros)
Bologna (LaFlorecita)
Coimbra (LaFlorecita)
Coimbra (Road Race) (Time Trial) (ricco')
Gdańsk (phil-i-am)
Glasgow/Edinburgh (Fraserhughes)
Granada (LaFlorecita)
Istanbul (Finn84)
Karlovy Vary (fauniera)
Kiev (Libertine Seguros)
London (togo95)
Lyon (Team Time Trial) (Individual Time Trial) (Road Race) (lemon cheese cake)
Madrid (Finn84)
Rio de Janeiro (SetonHallPirate)
Seattle (BigMac)
Sochi (Road Race) (Time Trial) (Libertine Seguros)
Stavelot (rghysens)
Tokyo (Finn84)
Valpara?*sa & Viña del Mar (Lupetto)

More will be added here as they are posted. All library posts are linked from the original post in the thread.
 
Siriuscat said:
Tour of Scotland

Stage 1 - Irvine to Ayr 118.9miles/191.4Km
Stage 2 - Peebles to Edinburgh 93.8/151
Stage 3 - Callander to Perth 112.7/181.4
Stage 4 - Blairgowrie to Aberdeen 132.5/213.2
Stage 5 - Aberdeen ITT 9.9/15.9
Stage 6 - Stonehaven to Cairngorm MTF 122.2/196.7
Rest day Inverness
Stage 7 - Inverness to Applecross 84.33/135.7
Stage 8 - Oban to Dunoon 125.78/202.4
Stage 9 - Dunoon to Helensburgh 77.31/124.4
Stage 10 - Helensburgh to Stirling 75.72/121.9
Stage 11 - Stirling to Glasgow 104.9/168.9

I'll post maps and profiles over the subsequent posts.
Right, now that I'm done with the library posts, we can get back to discussing the race designs. This looks to be very interesting (I do like the use of the Volta a Portugal format too ;)). Given how sketchy MMR can be, I can make the not unreasonable assumption that at least some of those climbs are a bit steeper than they appear using MMR's criteria (but there are too many for you to check your climbs all in isolation as I occasionally do to get a more realistic check on grade and distance). This looks a bit like a Tour of Belgium type race, albeit expanded more in the hilly side - should be some good opportunities for classics-style racing with cobbles and some good puncheur finishes. Even despite the lack of big mountain times, I do wonder if the ITT is long enough for an eleven stage race? I like putting Bealach na Ba near the end of the stage (even if you acknowledge this makes it distinctly unrealistic) and the Cairngorm MTF - these look very handy for breaking things up. But I think that perhaps the real killer will be that climb about 10-15km from the finish in the Aberdeen stage - am I right in seeing that as about 1,8 or 1,9km at 10,6%?! That's Montelupone territory right there!
 
Why not trying to lobby a bit? Let's try to influence Christian Prud'homme with a design for the 2013 edition of the tour. I'll try to come up with a decent design, but with respect for the race's history.
We know it will start in Corsica and will stay there for three days, and (imo) there's no better way to start a GT than with a prologue. I know, rumours are there will be 3 stages in line, but one can dream.
It seems reasonable to think that the capital of l'île de la beauté will be the start of the race. In and around the port of Ajaccio the riders have a slightly undulating 8,2 km long course to contest the victory.


prologue

Stage 1 will take the racers from the new to the ancient capital of Corsica, from Ajaccio to Corte. It's barely 152 km's, but it will arguably be the hardest opening stage of a grand tour since WW II. The possible sprint for victory will be contested by a small group because the field will be completely shattered after five climbs:
Col de San Bastiano: 3rd cat, 3.4 km @ 5.6%, 407m
Pancone: 3rd cat, 4.8 km @ 7.7%, 433m
Col de Sevi: 1st cat, 16.9 km @6.7%, 1100m
Col de Vergio: 2nd cat, 14.2 km @ 4.7%, 1467m
Col d'Ominanda: 3rd cat, 6.6km @ 4.3%, 644m

 
May 24, 2010
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Libertine Seguros said:
Right, now that I'm done with the library posts, we can get back to discussing the race designs. This looks to be very interesting (I do like the use of the Volta a Portugal format too ;)). Given how sketchy MMR can be, I can make the not unreasonable assumption that at least some of those climbs are a bit steeper than they appear using MMR's criteria (but there are too many for you to check your climbs all in isolation as I occasionally do to get a more realistic check on grade and distance). This looks a bit like a Tour of Belgium type race, albeit expanded more in the hilly side - should be some good opportunities for classics-style racing with cobbles and some good puncheur finishes. Even despite the lack of big mountain times, I do wonder if the ITT is long enough for an eleven stage race? I like putting Bealach na Ba near the end of the stage (even if you acknowledge this makes it distinctly unrealistic) and the Cairngorm MTF - these look very handy for breaking things up. But I think that perhaps the real killer will be that climb about 10-15km from the finish in the Aberdeen stage - am I right in seeing that as about 1,8 or 1,9km at 10,6%?! That's Montelupone territory right there!
I did have another draft of the TT which took it out to nearly 25kms but tried to balance tt kms with the rest especially as we don't have a monster MTF or two.

That killer climb has me interested too, i didn't really notice it last night (half asleep on third nightshift) but it doesn't match what I know of that road, I may repost that stage once I check it, could be MMR being silly!

EDIT - That's nonsense, I'm going to have a look at that again needs a tweak to have any value. I don't know where it's got that 10.6% from.......
 
This is about my 7th post in a row on my own thread, but I will plead that it's not too bad when half of it's because it grew too big so you had to library its contents.

Anyway, I'm reaching the end of my Volta a Portugal, with only three days remaining. The riders have just come down from their third cat.1 MTF, so I think it's only right that I make them tackle their third cat.2 MTF instead. Maybe it's MTF overkill for some, but since Portugal doesn't really have the ability to provide the variety in real HC mountains that the GTs have, then this must be compensated with a wide range of medium mountain stages.

Stage 19: Viséu - Figueira de Castelo Rodrigo (Miradouro da Marofa), 198km



Though there isn't much in the way of real steep stuff here, this won't be a fun day in the saddle, with constant up and down all day, with five categorised climbs in addition to a glut of uncategorised ones. In reality, I see this as more of a Super-Besse type stage, with a long but very gradual and non-threatening climb preceding the final climb, which is only really threatening in the last 2,5km or so. However, with such a big day in the mountains yesterday and another one to come tomorrow, I feared a lack of activity, so while furious and nasty attacks on Marofa are not to be expected given that GC contenders may not wish to take too much out of the tank ahead of tomorrow's tests, at the same time anybody who really went into the red yesterday on São Macário had better be careful because crucial time could be lost here.



Climbs:
Jardim de Sendim (cat.3) 3,2km @ 5,5%
Ervedosa do Douro (cat.2) 8,7km @ 6,1%
Alto Tomadias (cat.3) 5,2km @ 4,6%
Freixeda do Torrão (cat.2) 11,1km @ 3,2%
Alto da Marofa (cat.2) 7,0km @ 5,9%

As previously explained, the last couple of km of the stage are at about 8%, with the last stretch over 10%. Though it is not unlikely that the breakaway shall claim this stage, we could well therefore be in for an interesting climax unless one man in the break is a significantly better climber than the others; it could well be a game of cat and mouse from the péloton too, while the relatively benign early stages of the climb will likely give a reason for puncheurs to show their faces - some of them may have found the gradients of up to 15% on Cerro de São Miguel, and definitely those of up to 20% on Sameiro to be beyond them, whereas this is a more palatable grind.

Viséu:


Marofa:
 
rghysens said:
Why not trying to lobby a bit? Let's try to influence Christian Prud'homme with a design for the 2013 edition of the tour. I'll try to come up with a decent design, but with respect for the race's history.
We know it will start in Corsica and will stay there for three weeks, and (imo) there's no better way to start a GT than with a prologue. I know, rumours are there will be 3 stages in line, but one can dream.
It seems reasonable to think that the capital of l'île de la beauté will be the start of the race. In and around the port of Ajaccio the riders have a slightly undulating 8,2 km long course to contest the victory.


prologue

Stage 1 will take the racers from the new to the ancient capital of Corsica, from Ajaccio to Calvi. It's barely 152 km's, but it will arguably be the hardest opening stage of a grand tour since WW II. The possible sprint for victory will be contested by a small group because the field will be completely shattered after five climbs:
Col de San Bastiano: 3rd cat, 3.4 km @ 5.6%, 407m
Pancone: 3rd cat, 4.8 km @ 7.7%, 433m
Col de Sevi: 1st cat, 16.9 km @6.7%, 1100m
Col de Vergio: 2nd cat, 14.2 km @ 4.7%, 1467m
Col d'Ominanda: 3rd cat, 6.6km @ 4.3%, 644m
Plenty of scope for designing fantasy stages for the Giro/Tour/Vuelta, that was one of the original reasons I put this thread up in the first place.

Unfortunately at the moment you've (probably accidentally) linked the prologue twice there so we can't see your stage 1, might need to edit.
 

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