Race Design Thread

[Progsprach]

Valencia - Alicante (182km)
Well, we still need a little bit of transititioning to reach the mountains, so there will be one more for the sprinters. The way from Valencia to Alicante leads along the coast most of the way, so do not expect any great altitude differences. The intermediate sprint at Gandia lies on one of the few mini-ascents on the way, while the second intermediate at Benidorm is contested rather close to the finish line. The next stage will lead us into the high mountains for the first time.

 

[lemon cheese cake]

@ phil i am: I'm glad I dont have to ride that! It looks like hell. Anyway, from your overall race route I'm glad there isn't a stage finishing in Bukowina Tatranzka. What the route shows, is that you dont have to go to Italy (2013) or Slovakia (2014) for a tough stage with an MTF/HTF.

 

[Progsprach]

Cartagena - Sierra de Los Filabres (241km)
Many people here have expressed their dislike for "Vuelta stages", but I think one or two single climb stages are fine, if there are sufficient multiple mountain stages in addition. So starting at Cartagena, the riders won't have anything except the two intermediate sprints in Aguilas and Nijar to worry about for the first about 200km along the coast. But then they will have to deal with a double of climbs, first the easy part to Gergal (14.4km@3.6%, cat3), then the finish on top of Sierra de Los Filabres (23km@6.1%, HC), a very consistent grind of a climb. And from my comments before, I think we all now where we're going next stage.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

@ phil i am: I'm glad I dont have to ride that! It looks like hell. Anyway, from your overall race route I'm glad there isn't a stage finishing in Bukowina Tatranzka. What the route shows, is that you dont have to go to Italy (2013) or Slovakia (2014) for a tough stage with an MTF/HTF.

Karpacz used to host an MTF every year (often a split stage with a short intermediate stage followed by an uphill ITT) before the race went ProTour, since then they've had all the mountain stages in the area around the Tatras. Before that, it used to be a trademark climb in the Peace Race, featuring most prominently in the legendary 1984 stage when Sergey Sukhoruchenkov took the lead off the isolated Bulgarian climber Nencho Staikov by just a couple of seconds with a speculative long distance raid.

They never climbed by as tough a route as phil.i.am took them up though, only ever these three:

Pod Czołem east (classic route through Karpacz):

Pod Czołem northwest (tougher route descending into Karpacz):

Orlinek (the old summit finish through the town):

Some old stages would climb Orlinek then have a couple of flat km to Pod Czołem then descent the northwest side to make a loop; on one occasion I believe they did the mini-Peyragudes version that is the northwest side of Pod Czołem then a descent into Karpacz town, before turning to the south to climb the last 2km of the Orlinek climb for a finish - the stage phil.i.am has designed features this style of finish with the start of the descent of Pod Czołem east before the last 2km of Orlinek, but they've done a tougher variant of the east side of Pod Czołem enabling them to do that loop without crossing over themselves, which I don't believe has been seen in racing before.

 

[fauniera]

TIRRENO - ADRIATICO

stage 3: Monterotondo - Radicofani, 152 km

(white line indicates sterrato)

The race continues its path north, passing by Lago di Bolsena and leading into Toscana. This is all about the final climb, which is 8 km long averages at 6%. But this gradient is misleading, as the climb is highly irregular, and mostly on sterrato. The sterrato part is 8,6 km long and begins 2 km before the climb. The climb itself goes up in steps. The first step is 0,7 km at 9%, followed by an easier part that has some nice switchbacks. The next step is 0,7 km at 10%. You can see these first kms here in the center, with Radicofani in the background. The next 1,3 km are easier and include a little descent. Then comes the next step, 0,6 km at 9%, followed by easy 2 km.

The whole climb is part of Via Francigena, an ancient pilgrim route. That's why you often see pilgrims on pictures of this climb (i only found out about that after i had designed the stage). But back to the stage. The last steep section of sterrato is 0,4 km at 12%, then the riders will have the pleasure to ride on tarmac again (here you can see the strada bianca coming up from the center background of the picture and join the tarmac road).

But it's not over yet. Next obstacle are the narrow and steep streets of Radicofani. After passing through Radicofani the climb continues towards the fortress, which towers over the town. We won't go up there all the way as there is not enough room. In the wood the sterrato reappears for steep 0,3 km at 12%, the final 0,2 km are a nearly flat.


Monterotondo

Radicofani

 

[phil-i-am]

Re:

So the main climb is a short and steep extension to the classic Przełęcz Pod Czołem climb, but descending the classic harder side - is this climb the unused route via Myśliwska and Szkolna?

You are right! Starting in Miłków with low gradients they will turn right into Kolejowa. Steeper part is Myśliwska and Szkolna then right turn on Karkonoska (3 times). Last time (look at the picture above) they will turn left to start short and technical Karkonoska descent. Then, they will turn right into Główny Szlak Sudecki and climb last (and hardest) 1100 meters of Orlinek climb.
Szkolna street is extremally narrow, but the lion's share of it has recently been asphalted (does even such a word exist? ). The problem is the last 200m drag. It's ridiculously steep and yet tarmac quality is pretty bad. That's why this part of climb has never been used in any serious racing. If I had power to do this, I would paved that 200m .

That profile uses an unpaved shortcut between 2,2km and 2,7km.
http://www.altimetr.pl/podjazd-karpacz.html
I'm afraid I used it in my previously posted 'last 10 kms', but riders have to go via Szkolna all the way.

 

[Samamba]

Hi all,

I was wondering which site/software you use to create routes and more important elevation profiles. I'm looking for a site/software with up to date elevation data. At the moment I'm using http://www.ridewithgps.com but the gradients are in general to low. For example, ridewithgps shows a gradient of 7% where other sites are showing gradients of 9%. Furthermore I'm not happy with the elevation profiles. I'm searching for an elevation profile that show the height differences between a flat stage (max. heigt 200m) and a mountain stage (max. height 200m). All of the elevation profiles I work with ensure that the flat stages seem equally difficult than the mountain stages because you can't modify de height on the Y-axis.

Can someone help me?

 

[Eshnar]

Re:

Hi all,

I was wondering which site/software you use to create routes and more important elevation profiles. I'm looking for a site/software with up to date elevation data. At the moment I'm using http://www.ridewithgps.com but the gradients are in general to low. For example, ridewithgps shows a gradient of 7% where other sites are showing gradients of 9%. Furthermore I'm not happy with the elevation profiles. I'm searching for an elevation profile that show the height differences between a flat stage (max. heigt 200m) and a mountain stage (max. height 200m). All of the elevation profiles I work with ensure that the flat stages seem equally difficult than the mountain stages because you can't modify de height on the Y-axis.

Can someone help me?

Imho the best one out there is http://www.cronoescalada.com

 

[Netserk]

tracks4bikers has the best profile out there, but the mapping is mediocre atm. I use openrunner for profiles (map with bikeroutetoaster), but it makes the elevation gain seem bigger in flat stages. cronoescalada.com is excellent, but the one drawback is that the profile is a bit rough and I think it only plots the altitude once for every km (it's only a big problem when doing short stages like TTs).

For examples of openrunner you can check out fauniera's T-A on this page.
phil-i-am uses cronoescalada for his Tour de Pologne.
Mayomaniac uses tracks4bikers for his Giro, where the most recent profile is on the previous page.

 

[Samamba]

Thank you very much both. I just tried cronoescalada.com and I love the Giro, Tour, Vuelta profiles. Do anyone of you know if you can upload GPX tracks in cronoescalada?

 

[Netserk]

Yes you can. There's a big green upload button up to the right, but you have to be logged in to see it.

 

[fauniera]

TIRRENO - ADRIATICO

stage 4: Chiusi - Castiglione del Lago, 25 km ITT

This is the only time trial of the race. It starts in Chiusi Scalo, the part of Chiusi that lies in the valley, and immediately leads the riders up to Chiusi proper. It's not too hard a climb, 2 km at 6%, with a steep section after this hairpin. After the descent we enter Umbria, as we circle Lago di Chiusi. The terrain is undulating, it will be difficult to find a rythm. There are also a lot of bends, but the road is wide and good. After km 17 the terrain gets flatter, Panzerwagen will be happy with this section. In Castiglione del Lago we take the Via Lungolago, which circles the peninsula on the shores of Lago Trasimeno. The final climb up to the fortress is 0,25 km at 11%, the finish is at the Rocca del Leone.


Chiusi

Castiglione del Lago

 

[lemon cheese cake]

The Final day in the Nethelands:


Ronde van Nederland Stage 7 Heerlen - Gulpenberg (193.5km)

Climbs:
Cauberg
Geulhemmerberg
Bemelerberg
*Wolfsberg
*Loorberg
*Gulpenberg
**Kruisberg
**Eyserbosweg
**Fromberg
**Keutenberg

*Climbs climbed three times
**Climbs climbed twice

Primes:
Valkenburg
Maastricht
Margraten
Gulpen
Gulpen

So far in the Ronde van Nederland we have been to the Noord Brabant (Prologue, part of Stage 1 and Stage 6) Zeeland (part of Stage 1), North and South Holland(Stage 2), Groningen (part of stage 3) Drenthe (Stage 3) Overijssel (part of Stage 4a), Gelderland (part of Stage 4a) Utrecht (Stage 4b). The only regions we haven't ridden through are Frysland and Flevoland. Those who know where Dutch races and Dutch regions take place will be shouting at me asking where is Limburg. That's where we are toaday, for the Queen Stage.

We start in Heerlen in the east of the region. The riders will then head out of the city/town west towards Valkenburg, for the first prime of the day. It will also host the first climb of the day, as the Cauberg is ridden over only once today. Then we have the Geulhemmerberg. The second prime is at Maastricht. We will then ride over the Bemelerberg. After that there is a little flatter section as they head towards the prime at Margratenhome to a massive American war Cemetry. Then we join the circuit, at Banholt. From here we will pass through Noorbeek. From here the first climb on the circuit will be ridden over. This is the Wolfsberg. We then have the Loorberg, after heading through Slenaken. After a little break from climbing we climb the Gulpenberg. This climb saw an argument at the bottom of it in this years Amstel Gold Race. This climb is also the finish climb. We then head into Gulpen for the final two primes of the day. After a while the riders will come to the next two climbs of the day. These are the Kruisberg and the Eserbosweg. We will then head onto the Fromberg. Before riding up the Keutenberg we will ride through Schin op Geul. A section without any climbs will follow as we ride back into Gulp then down to Noorbeek to do the circuit a further time and then back round to the finish which is just over the top of the Gulpenberg.

Start:

Finish:

 

[lemon cheese cake]

Now the Ronde van Nederland is finished I shall start my Giro della Campania soon.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Love the Tirreno-Adriatico ITT. Though I guess you'll need a tough stage after this to prevent it from being too decisive?

 

[Progsprach]

El Ejido - Pico del Veleta (206km)
For this stage, the riders get some easy climbs for the beginning to warm up their legs. The ascent to Dalias is very gentle for instance (13.5km@3.2%, cat4) and the one to Algibe del Arco is steeper, but also shorter (9.6km@5%, cat3). After that, they tackle the slightly harder climb to Mecina Bombaron (10.4km@5%, cat3). After the "descent", which is very inconsistent, there is one more classified climb to Camino de Langaron (6.2km@4.5%, cat4) before the intermediate sprint in Grenada. Along the way from the start to here there are also many unclassified bumps, which make the first part of the stage a very lumpy experience. However, all this dominated by the final grueling, consistent climb to Pico del Veleta (35.6km@6.6%, HC) to a height of about 3100m (which is why I split the profile in two parts, so the hills in the beginning are recognizable in the profile). Therefore, all the action will very likely happen here, but really an attack at the bottom of the Veleta is similar to an attack on the penultimate climb in most other stages.

 

[Gigs_98]

Tour de slovenie stage 4: Maribor-Ljubliana (179 km)
Before the key stage comes on day 5 the fourth stage will be the easiest one of the tour. However there will be a second category climb which could cause that some sprinter lose the connection to the peloton. The stage ends in ljubljana, the beautiful capital of slovenia, probably in a bunch sprint.

Ljubliana:

Climbs:
Podlom: 2nd cat.

 

[fauniera]

TIRRENO - ADRIATICO

stage 5: Castiglione del Lago - Treia, 229 km

final 70 km:

(white lines indicate sterrato)

Sunday sees the longest stage of the race, and one of the hardest, with over 4.200 meters of climbing. It leads the riders from Umbria to Marche. The first 80 km are rather easy, but then one climb follows the other, and that won't really stop until the finish. With 70 km to go the riders will tackle the Poggio San Romualdo (10,6 km 6,6%). This climb featured at the 2015 Tirreno, but then they immediately descended from the Poggio after cresting it. We won't do that, or will only descend 4 km, before tackling a 7 km long section of sterrato. This section is mostly gently uphill with an average gradient of 4% (see map and profil). There is a steeper bit at the beginning, but then flattens out (that's Monte San Vicino in the background). The combination of the Poggio San Romualdo and this sterrato section might spark some attacks, in any case it should help thinning out the field.

We then descend for good and cross Lago di Cingoli, before we tackle the second of three sectors of sterrato. This one is 5,5 km long and undulating (map and profile). There is a steep bit at the beginning, then a descent, followed by another climb. In short, it's a demanding sector, and that includes bike handling skills.

The next 12 km are quite easy, then a short climb (1,5 km 10%) brings us to the foot of the hardest climb of the day, Passo della Cappella (4,45 km at 8%). As you can see from the profile, it is an irregular climb, with double digit sections in the middle. And most of that middle section is on sterrato, too (map and profile). It's a nasty climb, and even after the sterrato ends, the gradient stays high and riders will suffer. From the top of Passo della Cappella there are only 12 km left to race, so i expect decisive attacks to be made (or at least tried) here.

The riders will approach the walled city of Treia from the west, which includes this nice little ramp. Then they will ride along the city walls, descend and climb up again from the east. This is the last muro of the day (1,4 km 10%). The riders will enter the town through Porta Vallesacco, then have to tackle a steep cobbled section, before riding along the city walls to the finish.


Treia

Passo della Cappella

 

[fauniera]

Re:

Though I guess you'll need a tough stage after this to prevent it from being too decisive?

I tried my best.

 

[Samamba]

Re:

Yes you can. There's a big green upload button up to the right, but you have to be logged in to see it.

At the moment I'm trying to upload some GPX routes (made with ridewithgps.com) in Cronoescalada. 3 out of four tracks results in a very beautiful elevation profile. Unfortunately, there is one route that results in a strange elevation profile. It looks like there are three points with a height of -10000m, which results in the following elevation profile. Does anyone know whats wrong with it and if I can fix this issue? Is my GPX data corrupt?

 

[Progsprach]

At the moment I'm trying to upload some GPX routes (made with ridewithgps.com) in Cronoescalada. 3 out of four tracks results in a very beautiful elevation profile. Unfortunately, there is one route that results in a strange elevation profile. It looks like there are three points with a height of -10000m, which results in the following elevation profile. Does anyone know whats wrong with it and if I can fix this issue? Is my GPX data corrupt?

It is probably corrupt data. If it is, you would need a GPX editor that allows you to change heights manually. This one is the one I use, but unfortunately it is only available in German. You should still be able to use it since the parts you need are basically self-explanatory. Just open the file, go to the tab "Bearbeitung/2D-Modell" and look for the bad data points in the table at the bottom of the screen. Then change the value in the H[m] column to some sensible value (the average of the points above and below should do). Do so for all the bad points and save. After that the profile should look a lot better

 

[Samamba]

At the moment I'm trying to upload some GPX routes (made with ridewithgps.com) in Cronoescalada. 3 out of four tracks results in a very beautiful elevation profile. Unfortunately, there is one route that results in a strange elevation profile. It looks like there are three points with a height of -10000m, which results in the following elevation profile. Does anyone know whats wrong with it and if I can fix this issue? Is my GPX data corrupt?

It is probably corrupt data. If it is, you would need a GPX editor that allows you to change heights manually. This one is the one I use, but unfortunately it is only available in German. You should still be able to use it since the parts you need are basically self-explanatory. Just open the file, go to the tab "Bearbeitung/2D-Modell" and look for the bad data points in the table at the bottom of the screen. Then change the value in the H[m] column to some sensible value (the average of the points above and below should do). Do so for all the bad points and save. After that the profile should look a lot better

I figured out the problem, these point are situated under sealevel. It seems that cronoescalada and some other sites can't handle that. I think your solution will help, thank you.

EDIT: It helped!

 

[Netserk]

When you choose to see your route as a Giro (or Tour or whatever) profile, there is a tunnel option that should also do the trick.

 

[Gigs_98]

tour de slovenie stage 5: Ljubljana-Vrsic (171 km)
The final stage will be the queen stage of my tour de slovenie. At first I wanted to make a stage which finishes on the mangrt but at the end I decided to use the more common mtf in vrsic. The reasons for that are that I don't know if there is any place on the mangrt to finish the stage and the fact that I can put another difficult climb in front of the final climb, which wouldn't be the case on a stage to the mangrt. The final stage starts in ljubljana. It goes to the north-west where the riders have to pass the first climb, to drazgose. After that the route goes northwards to the loiblpass which brings the peloton to austria. After the difficult descent there will be a flat section which ends at the beginning of the Wurzenpass which goes from Riegersdorf in Austria to Podkoren in Slovenia. After another short flat section the last climb to Vrsic, which is famous for its 24 cobbled hairpin bends, starts. This climb isn't that hard, however it should be hard enough to cause some serious time gaps in the gc and if someone lost too much time in the TT and the maribor stage he could even try an attack on the wurzenpass.

one of the cobbled hairpines:

The finish on the Vrsic pass:

Climbs:
drazgose: 3rd cat.
Loiblpass: 1st cat.
Wurzenpass: 2nd cat.
Vrsic: 1st cat.

Hope you guys liked the race

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Vršič is plenty hard enough for a short stage race, especially a 2.1 race where you'll get a mixed field. It'll be fine, you don't need Mangart in a five-day route. I love the scenery of Slovenia, I wish that there was more coverage of the Tour there.

I am just about there on a route for each GT. Do people want a Giro (my 2nd), a Tour (my 3rd) or a Vuelta (my 462856th)?

The latter two feature no major climbs I have previously used in any of my routes (well, there are a couple but they are different sides to those previously used). The Giro features one and one only, but I felt I could make an exception to my usual self-imposed rule. The Giro is a highly unusual route with some creative twists; the Tour perhaps even more so, an attempt at changing up the way the race formula works. The Vuelta is the best damned medium mountain race I ever made, combining keeping Javier Guillén happy with hardly any uphill finishes.

Oh, and I'm past the halfway point when it comes to librarying the thread. Things are starting to take shape, but it'll be a while yet before all is finished.