Race Design Thread

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Libertine Seguros said:
Well, I think if riders were handed your proposed GT route there would be complaints!

Of course, they're effectively sequences of 21 individual mountain stages, and Baracun looks like pure death on two wheels.

As a pure climbing obsessive, I can only approve. I wasn't even aware that roads continued beyond Rifugio Barbara Lowrie to be honest, and think that going just to that is brutal enough, is there any room at the top of Baracun?

A question for you. What is the best map engine if you want to create routes. I have used bikemap.net. Think they have a good map, and is easy to use, but the altitude profiles could be better. Track4bikers have much better altitude profiles, but it doesn't seem that it is possible to create routes over 200 km.

Any other map engines I could use?
 
OlavEH said:
A question for you. What is the best map engine if you want to create routes. I have used bikemap.net. Think they have a good map, and is easy to use, but the altitude profiles could be better. Track4bikers have much better altitude profiles, but it doesn't seem that it is possible to create routes over 200 km.

Any other map engines I could use?
it is possible to create routes over 200 kms, if you first create a gpx file using bikeroutetoaster.com and upload it in tracks4bikers. You can't modify it though.
 
OlavEH said:
A question for you. What is the best map engine if you want to create routes. I have used bikemap.net. Think they have a good map, and is easy to use, but the altitude profiles could be better. Track4bikers have much better altitude profiles, but it doesn't seem that it is possible to create routes over 200 km.

Any other map engines I could use?
What's the best map engine? That's the million dollar question. That almost all the posters here are using different ones is testament to that, whether it be bikeroutetoaster, bikemap, mapmyride, gpsies, tracks4bikers or anything else. They all have various positive and negative points, and it's more about finding which one works best for you. Personally I draw my profiles up in Mapmyride but look at all the climb data separately as though the profiles are generally good the figures it comes up with (often including false flat in climbs, or splitting climbs up into multiple climbs if there's the tiniest bit of flat in them) are progressively less accurate the longer you make your route. If there was a clear best map engine we'd all be using the same one, I'd wager.
Eshnar said:
Stage 15 Rovereto - Glacier De Sölden (MTF) 194 kms
The Giro goes to Austria to exploit an awesome combo: Passo Del Rombo and Rettenbachferner!
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Passo Del Rombo 29.1 kms @ 6.2%
Glacier De Sölden (Rettenbachferner) 12.9 kms @ 10.4%

That's an awesome double-whammy. One that's been explored before on the thread, because, well, it's just so tempting and I don't understand how the Giro has never done it, especially in the Zomegnan years.

togo95's Giro queen stage with Pennes, Jaufenpass, Rombo and Rettenbachferner

The Rettenbachferner I feel is an underrated beast in the scope of pro cycling climbs, being more or less the same, statistics wise, as the Mortirolo... only at 1000m higher altitude. A shame the Österreichrundfahrt neglects it and the Deutschlandtour is no more, leaving only the Giro to use it really - though the Giro can link it directly to Rombo, whereas the Deutschlandtour always (OK, twice) had a fair amount of flat between it and the Kühtaisattel. The altitude and difficulty should really put it somewhere maybe not quite matching Zoncolán and Anglirú, but pretty close.
 
I'll continue with my Tour Touristique de France.

Before the 4th stage the caravan will leave the coast and make a transfer of a bit more than 100km inland. Today the stage will start and finish in the Picardy region, the granary of France. So, one can expect to see countless tv-shots of fields with grain or coleseed if the action on the road would be as dull as the landscape. The race will start in Amiens, capital of Picardy and will finish 207 km later in Cambrai. Le village départ shall be built in front of the Nôtre Dame cathedral, the biggest gothic cathedral in France.
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The official start will take place a few km outside the town centre of Amiens, where the peloton will follow the N25 to Doullens. Up until the 1950's the name instilled fear on the racers during Paris-Roubaix, because le Côte de Doullens was one of the biggest difficulties of the race. Today it's a mere 4th category climb, 1,1km long at 6%. The peloton will follow the N25 to Arras, famous for its belfry, its citadel and its Grand Place, destroyed during the first worldwar, but rebuilt. The breakaway, that by this moment likely will have formed, can contest the intermediate sprint at the Grand Place.

From Arras it's only 39km to the finishline, if one would follow the D939, but we will take a detour and go north to the village of Orchies.
And it's here all hell will break loose. The first of no less than 14 cobblestone sections will be a first test for those who will contest the podium in Paris. This tour won't be decided in the mountains and against the clock alone, candidates for the final victory also have to be determined and possess some steering skills. The end of this first section marks today's halfway point.
The following 25km 4 more cobbled sectors have to be tackled, te last one being the difficult Havéluy stretch. After that it's time for some smooth tarmac. For 11km riders those who suffered a mechanical can try to regain contact with the group they belonged to, those not comfortable on cobbles can take a deep breath before the next ordeal.

We're nearing Valenciennes, a city that has hosted finishes of cobbled stages in the tour before. This time we stay south of the town, making use of some of the many cobbled roads that are mainly agricultural roads. In 20km no less than 6 secteurs pavés are awaiting the peloton -or what's left of it. The most difficult of them is the sector of Aulnoy-lez-Valenciennes, not only because it's badly surfaced, but also because it's slightly uphill.

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Those still in contention for the stage victory can fill their tanks for a last time on 10km smooth-surfaced road between Artres and Saint-Martin-sur-Ecaillon. The following sector isn't that difficult and the last but one is easy. The final sector is 3,7km long and good for 4*. After that there's only 16,5 km of good roads left to the finish in Cambrai.

There's 1 climb:
Côte de Doullens: 1,1km @ 6%, km 31

but 14 cobblestone sectors
 
Tour of Three Islands - 10

Stage 10: Oristano - Calasetta; 161 km

This is the flattest stage, but still there is small bump 6 km before the finish in the village Calasetta. It's 2 km with 5% and it can be launchpad for some attacks. This stage is the only one (besides ITT of course) with no KOM points to be awarded.

Sprints:
Terralba - 30 km
Villamassargia - 115 km

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STAGE 17 Lienz - Bressanone 179 kms
Let's get back to Italy for good. Three great climbs the Giro seems unaware of: Kegelberg, Alpe Di Rodengo and Passo Delle Erbe (from Luson)
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Kegelberg 8.5 kms @ 10.3%
Alpe Di Rodengo 11.2 kms @ 8.8%
Passo Delle Erbe 14.2 kms @ 7.2%
 
STAGE 18 Vandoies - Pordoi (MTF) 187 kms
Dolomitic stage with Forcella Cibiana, Forcella D'Alleghe (a variation of Staulanza), Passo Fedaia (this is for you, Libertine :D ) and MTF on Passo Pordoi (a classic).
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Forcella Cibiana 9.8 kms @ 7.8%
Forcella D'Alleghe 15 kms @ 6.6%
Passo Fedaia 14.1 kms @ 7.5%
Passo Pordoi 13 kms @ 6%
 
STAGE 19 Selva Di Val Gardena - Passo Coe (MTF) 247 kms
Long stage with Passo Palade, Fai Della Paganella, Monte Bondone and MTF on Cadel's mountain ;)
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Passo Palade 17.4 kms @ 6.9%
Fai Della Paganella 9.5 kms @ 7.5%
Monte Bondone 21.5 kms @ 6.8%
Passo Coe 19 kms @ 7.5%
 
STAGE 20 Marostica - Monte Grappa (MTF) 184 kms
A tribute to Monte Grappa, a stage climbing 4 different sides of this colossus.
The first one (probly the easiest) is the one from Semonzo, which was climbed in 2010 Giro. After descending the side of Caupo, the second climb is from Seren Del Grappa, with a murderous middle section. Then the riders will descend the side of Romano D'Ezzelino. The third climb of the day is the side from Possagno, named "Bocca Di Forca", short and really steep. Finally, after descending again the Semonzo side (which was the first climb of the day), the riders will have to deal with the final side, starting again from Possagno: Il Salto Della Capra (literally "The Jump Of The Goat"). After that, the road will become gentler until the finishing line to the WWI monument at the top.
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Monte Grappa (Semonzo) 18.5 kms @ 8.3%
Monte Grappa (Seren Del Grappa) 21.1 kms @ 6.3%
Monte Grappa - Bocca Di Forca 9.9 kms @ 11.4%
Monte Grappa - Salto Della Capra 23.8 kms @ 6.2%
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STAGE 21 Pordenone - Pontebba 203 kms
And we're finally there!
Forcella Di Monte Rest and Val Di Lauco will be a good warmup for the final showdown! If there's less than 30 minutes :D between the first and the second in GC, everything will be decided here: Monte Zoncolan from Priola at 70 kms to the end of the Giro! and these 70 final kms ain't easy at all... No flat. Sella Valcalda, Passo Duron and, last but not least (at all...) the Passo Cason Di Lanza, whose descent will bring the (couple of) riders who will have survived directly to the podium!
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Forcella Di Monte Rest 11.1 kms @ 5.9%
Val Di Lauco 14.7 kms @ 5.6%
Monte Zoncolan 8.9 kms @ 12.8%
Sella Valcalda 6.5 kms @ 6.2%
Passo Duron 7.5 kms @ 6.1%
Passo Cason Di Lanza 15.4 kms @ 5.9%
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1 Napoli - Calvanico
2 Teano - Campo Imperatore
3 Civitanova Marche - Petrano
4 Cantiano - Assisi
5 Arezzo - Loiano
6 La Spezia - Masone
Rest
7 Alba - Sestriere
8 Rivoli - Baracun
9 Torino - Cervinia
10 Orsières - Alpe Fuori
11 Cernobbio - Alpe Vaccaro
12 Lecco - Splugen
13 St.Moritz - Livigno
14 Bormio - Avio
15 Rovereto - Rettenbachferner
Rest
16 Innsbruck - Franz Joseph Hone
17 Lienz - Bressanone
18 Vandoies - Pordoi
19 Selva Di Val Gardena - Passo Coe
20 Marostica - Monte Grappa
21 Pordenone - Pontebba
 
Eshnar said:
1 Napoli - Calvanico
2 Teano - Campo Imperatore
3 Civitanova Marche - Petrano
4 Cantiano - Assisi
5 Arezzo - Loiano
6 La Spezia - Beigua
Rest
7 Alba - Finestre
8 Rivoli - Baracun
9 Torino - Cervinia
10 Orsières - Alpe Di Fuori
11 Cernobbio - Alpe Vaccaro
12 Lecco - Splugen
13 St.Moritz - Livigno
14 Bormio - Avio
15 Rovereto - Rettenbachferner
Rest
16 Innsbruck - Franz Joseph Hone
17 Lienz - Bressanone
18 Vandoies - Pordoi
19 Selva Di Val Gardena - Passo Coe
20 Marostica - Monte Grappa
21 Pordenone - Pontebba

You're far too kind :D
 
Thing is, if they cancelled the Rettenbachferner because of snow, you could still climb Jaufenpass and Passo Rombo and have a brutal pair of climbs with a descent finish into Sölden, and it could still be a great stage.

I remember posting Alpe di Rodengo in the Unknown Climbs thread, and wondering why on earth the Giro didn't do it.

The Monte Grappa stage is a REAL way to honour a great climb, none of this pointless two-stages-using-it drivel the Tour has been doing lately.

And Fedaia!!!
 
Libertine Seguros said:
Thing is, if they cancelled the Rettenbachferner because of snow, you could still climb Jaufenpass and Passo Rombo and have a brutal pair of climbs with a descent finish into Sölden, and it could still be a great stage.

I remember posting Alpe di Rodengo in the Unknown Climbs thread, and wondering why on earth the Giro didn't do it.

The Monte Grappa stage is a REAL way to honour a great climb, none of this pointless two-stages-using-it drivel the Tour has been doing lately.

And Fedaia!!!
I guess that if Sölden presents a serious proposal to climb Rettenbachferner in the Giro RCS would probly go there. It all comes down to money after all. When it comes to mountain stages, the Giro has dozens of proposals each year and I guess there are multiple issues to be taken into account. As for L'Alpe Di Rodengo, I wonder why too. :(
 
Sep 8, 2010
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Torino - Bruxelles || Stage 10, La Louvière - Bruxelles, 112 km

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Last day on this eleven day trip from Italy to Belgium. Short stage, three laps over the Bruine Put. Nothing to be afraid of, going to be a sprinter's day. ;) The finale will take place on the avenue Houba du Strooper, known from Paris-Bruxelles.
 
Tour of Three Islands - 11

Stage 11: Carbonia - Cagliari; 185 km

Fourth stage in Sardinia and last flat here. Despite this being considered as a sprinters stage finish is quite tricky in Cagliari - the capital of Sardinia. In the finale there are two small hills worth mentioning. With 8 km to go it's Is Mirrionis (1 km with 6%). After short descent to the port and 2 km along the coast route turns left to the last hill. It's 1,5 km with 6%. However last 500 metres of this hill have an average gradient of 12% with maximum 20%. The road is really wide and from the top it's only 2,5 km to go. There are 4 corners on the descent, then a roundabout. The last 1,5 km are quite strainght with only one relevant turn 700 metres before the finish line.

KOM:
Nuraxi de Mesu (3) - 5,5 km; 5%

Sprints:
Pula - 74 km
Monastir - 126 km

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Carbonia:
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Cagliari (more photos: 1, 2, 3, 4):
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The 5th stage of my Tour touristique de France connects two architectural gems in northeastern France.

Before the start of the race, however, there's a transfer to today's start: Reims, the capital of the champagne region.

At the village départ, in front of the cathedral and the "palais du tau", fans can catch a glimpse of their heroes in a majestic setting.

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Around 13h the peloton will start a 196 km long trip to Nancy.
After yesterday's gruelling test on the pavés du nord, today's stage will be more benign to the racers' tired legs. For 170km long the peloton will ride through a flat or barely rolling agricultural landscape. The only killjoy is a short 4th category climb near Rosières-devant-Bar.
The peloton passes the Lorraine regional nature park, consisting of wooded hills above the Meuse river and crosses the city of Toul. At this moment the final of today's stage can begin. The last 25km aren't the most difficult one can image, but if some puncheurs spark up the race, it is very doubtful that we'll see a complete peloton sprinting for victory.
With 23km to go le côte deVilley-le-Sec can cause a first split in the peloton, but its 1,4km @ 4% won't be enough to cause a final separation between the good and the best. 12 km later, the côte de Maron is the last opportunity for any "puncheur" with anything left to throw his cards on the table. 3,7km @ 4,5% isn't overly difficult, but it can be enough to derail the oiled sprinters' trains. When the summit is crested, a few rolling km's will offer the chance to widen created gaps when you're strong enough.

The plunge into Nancy is quite steep, but on a wide, slightly curved road.

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The final right line is a massive 2km long boulevard that debouches on the "Place Stanislas", one of the most beautiful squares of Europe.

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The sixth stage of the Tour touristique de France starts at exactly the same place where the fifth stage ended. The racers will be happy they don't have to make a long(ish) transfer today, but most of them won't be very happy with the parcours.

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From Nancy they'll go southeast, cross the Vosges and finish in Belfort. This 193 km long stage will climb the first cols of this year's edition, but the Vosges are nothing compared with the Alps or Pyrenees. It is, however, very likely that we'll see only a very select group contest the stage victory.

The stage starts easy, with the first 100km climbing very gently from 240m above sea level at the start to 650m at Gerardmer. Here the first climb awaits the peloton. The 3rd category col du Haut de la Côte isn't particularly long or steep, but is soon followed by the Col de Grosse Pierre, a bit longer and steeper. By now a breakaway probably would have been formed, and it's still way too far from the finish for the better climbers to react.

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A short descent through the village of La Bresse brings us to the foot of the next climb. The col de Bramont starts at a leisurely 2%, but gets steeper and steeper near the summit. With a length of 8 km and an average gradient of 4% this is just another appetiser for the hors d'oeuvre today. On its way to Kruth, the peloton passes a lovely lake, surrounded by two ridges of mountains. Those who still have something left will certainly enjoy the scenery in the beautiful parc naturel régional des Ballons des Vosges.
At this moment we're 60km from the finishline and there are still three climbs to negotiate. The first of them will be the col d'Oderen, 6,8km long @ 5.8%, the first climb of 2nd category this tour.

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A short descent, followed by the short (1,3 km @ 8,6%) climb to the col du page and a longer descent to Saint-Maurice-sur-Moselle brings us at the foot of the last difficulty of the day: the Ballon d'Alsace, 9km @ 6.9% and the first 1st category col in this tour. Any climber who has lost time during the nervous stages along the coasts of Britanny or Normandy, or on the pavés du Nord has a first opportunity to take some time back. There is, however, still 28km to go. It would be wise for the best climbers to team up with each other, as they need to gain as much time as possible before the difficult time trial tomorrow.
 
Tour touristique de France, stage 7: Dijon - Beaune (59km)

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The first long time trial of the race will be held in the region of Burgundy. The race will start at the square des ducs in front of the palace of the former dukes of Burgundy.
The course will leave the city center via the rue de la République, passing some beautifully restored timbered house and head for the route nationale 74, a long straight line of 19km.

After 16km they pass Clos de Vougeot, famous for its top quality wines and keep following the big road to Nuits Saint-George, another famous wine-making village.

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Here the racers will leave the main road and head for the hills of les côtes de Nuit, following a road above la combe pertuis, a steep sided valley. This climb lasts for 5,7km and has an average gradient of 5,5%. At the top of the hill there's a few kms flat, followed by a short rise in the village of Bruant. A sharp left hand turn marks the begin of the descent to Beaune.

In the center of Beaune the parcours follows the old city walls and finishes on the place de la Halle, right in front of les Hospices de Beaune, a 15th century hospital.

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Libertine Seguros said:
Now that's a finishing place. Why does the Tour never go here again?

logistic reasons?

anyway,

Tour touristique de France, stage 8: Montceau-les-Mines - Le Mont Dore/Puy de Sancy (239 km)

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the first 42km aren't shown on the profile, but are flat.

After yesterday's time trial there's a 60km transfer to the former minig town of Montceau les Mines. The official start for the longest stage of this edition of the tour will be a bit outside the city. From there the peloton goes southwest to Digoin, a little village on the banks of the Loire river. The road keeps going southwest to the little hamlet of Le Donjon, where the first climb of the day awaits the field. The 4th category, 2.8km @ 4% climb is just a warm-up for what has to come.
At lapalisse the peloton can enjoy the sight of the medieval castle. 13 km farther on today's stage, the 1.5km @ 6% côte de Bost won't pose much problems either, although there's a ramp of 14%.
On their route to the first real difficulty of the day, the cyclists pass Vichy and Riom.

The climb of le côte du Cratère, 6.3 km long and 6% steep, isn't too difficult. Who's still fresh can catch a glimpse of le chateau de tournoël. Meanwhile the race has entered the regional nature parc of the volcanoes of the Auvergne, a beautiful medium mountain landscape of dozens extinct volcanoes.
The summit of le côte du cratère is followed by a quick descent to the outskirts of Clermont-Ferrand and the climb to the col de la Moreno.
At their right hand the racers see the Puy de Dôme and can count themselves lucky they don't have to climb it. The summit of the col de la Moreno crests at 1065m, after a 11km climb at 5%.
The narrow descent to Theix is followed by a short climb: 2km @ 5.6%, with its summit at km 195, still 44km to go.

The lac d'Ayat will see an already thinned peloton, and tv spectators will see a very nice landscape. For 20km the race continues on a plateau, until the town Murol is reached. The sight of its castle will mark the beginning of the one but last climb of the day. The col de la Croix Morand is a 2nd category climb. A superb climber can try his luck here, as there are no more flat roads. But with 10.5km @ 5%, the climb may not be difficult enough. In the bus, those who still feel comfortable, may have more interest in the sights that unfold.

The finish of todays stage is at Le Mont Dore, but not in the town center, but on the slopes of le Puy de Sancy, after a 2nd category climb.
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This stage will be followed by a well-deserved rest day.
 
After the Tour de France, I've decided to set my sights a little lower and put something a bit closer to home.

The Hessen Rundfahrt was first run in 1982, and continued until 2005, when it was expanded into the 3-Länder Tour, also taking in Thüringen and Rheinland-Pfalz in its 5 days. This lasted a further two years before it became another all-too-predictable casualty of the German falling-out-of-love with the sport. It was the traditional season-closer for the German season, sitting in late September.

There is much to be said for the cycling terrain of the region, however. It may not have the biggest mountains in Germany (Bavaria does) or the most (Baden-Württemberg does), but it does have a wide range of short and medium-length climbs of varying difficulties. It is the terrain of the Brothers Grimm (they were from Hanau, at one end of the Land, and studied in Kassel, at the other end of it), so forests, lakes and sprawling hillside is the order of the day. It is also the terrain of Germany's biggest one-day race, the Rund um den Finanzplatz Eschborn-Frankfurt, the great May Day race that rolls through the lower end of the Taunus mountains and that sparked my own personal love affair with the sport.

Creating a tough race on this terrain is not hard; much like the Basque country, though super long, difficult climbs are hard to come by, there isn't a great deal of flat terrain anywhere (there aren't many proper super-steep Basque-style climbs, mind). With that in mind, I present my own resurrection of the race, staying true to the old "5 road stages" format.

Stage 1: Kassel - Kassel, 172km

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Climbs:
Dornhagener Berg (cat.3) 4,3km @ 4,3%
Heiligenberg (cat.2) 4,4km @ 5,2%
Pentersrück (cat.3) 3,2km @ 5,0%
Kammerbacher Berg (cat.2) 2,4km @ 8,1%
Meißner Kuppe (cat.1) 10,0km @ 5,6%
Bielstein-Michelskopf (cat.2) 3,6km @ 6,1%
Hohes Gras (cat.2) 3,9km @ 6,7%

We start with a stage looping through the northern end of Hesse, around the northermost city in the Land, Kassel, its reputation and history in fairytale only exacerbated by its location under the watchful gaze of the fantastical Schloß Wilhelmshöhe...

The stage sees the riders set out to the south and east over a number of small climbs, of which the Heiligenberg is the most imposing. Three categorised climbs are crammed into the first 40km, and this will give the break a chance to form, and to build an advantage over the next period of rolling terrain before the riders reach the banks of the Werra. From here, they face the steep rise from its banks to the edges of Kammerbach - a short but steep ascent of 2400m that maxes out at 17% - followed in short order by the gradual, but much longer, climb to the Hohe Meißner, the tallest mountain in the area, standing at 754m (the road we pass is some way beneath this, only just over 700m, but if the organisers wanted to we could finish at the tower at the summit). This, the first and only cat.1 climb of the day, comes just after the halfway point; the second half of the stage is like a beefed up version of the first; it starts - after the Hohe Meißner of course - with a couple of categorised climbs, before giving way to rolling hillside as we make our way back into Kassel.

We pass the finishing line for the first time with 35km to go; a circuit around to the west of the city then ensues, with a long and gradual drag up through the Habichtswald serving as an entrée before the main course of the final circuit, where the intermediate mountain theme for the race is drawn - the final 4km drag up to the Hohes Gras Aussichtsturm. This final climb is not a legbreaker, but including some tougher periods over 7,5% that will enable the race to be opened up by riders who want it to be, especially given that the summit is only 13,5km from the finish, of which the first 8km are descent through the Druseltal, past the aforementioned fairytale castles of Wilhelmshöhe and Löwenburg, and then a short loop around Kassel to finish in the city centre.

Should be one for the puncheurs and climbers, but time gaps may not be huge; rather like an early stage at a similarly mid-mountainous race such as País Vasco or Coppi e Bartali.

Kassel:
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