Race Design Thread

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Stage 16: Lugo - Albergue de Montaña "Club Ancáres", 146km

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GPM:
Alto del Hospital (cat.1) 11,3km @ 7,1%
Alto de Louxas (cat.2) 9,6km @ 5,4%
Alto de la Sierra Morela (cat.1) 10,2km @ 6,3%
Cruz de Cespedosa (cat.ESP) 9,5km @ 9,6%
Albergue de Montaña "Club Ancáres" (cat.2) 7,0km @ 5,7%

Firstly, the eagle-eyed viewer and more dedicated traceur will note that for the second time in this thread (after the Granada - Motril stage in my 2nd Vuelta), I have what's almost an exact clone of a PRC stage (can't see who to credit, but it's more often than not visko) that was posted all the way back in November 2010; if I had seen it I had forgotten about it when I put this route together (some of these stages were designed about six months ago, then tweaked since), but as many traceurs share opinions on what makes a great route it's perhaps not surprising that once in a while a cloned stage will happen, especially when particular climbs chain quite nicely together, much as Mortirolo and Aprica, Fedaia and Pordoi, Pradiccio and Abetone, Rombo and Rettenbachferner and so on. Ancáres is one that simply can't not be chained to Sierra Morela if climbing from this side, but nevertheless the rest of the stage, which runs for a period parallel to the west of where stage 15 ran after crossing from Asturias into Galicia.

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The riders have enjoyed a quiet, relaxing refill day in the historic and scenic city of Lugo, with its scenic cathedral and encased by its UNESCO-inscribed Roman city walls, a remnant of antiquity that gives the city a dramatic backdrop. There is so much goodness to offer in Galicia that it is a real shame that the pro-level Volta a Galiza that we had in the 80s and 90s died off; as mentioned in the previous stage, it serves as an extension of the geographical style of Portugal for cycling, or as a combination of the other Spanish nationalities; there are long and grinding climbs in the south of the region (La Manzaneda, for example) and both near the coast and near Asturias there are short-to-mid-length and very steep ascents like you might find in País Vasco (such as those brutes in yesterday's stage, or the Mirador de Ézaro). The central area of the region (around Lugo itself) offers better scope for a flat stage than Euskal Herria, and there is also the benefits of the wind coming in on the Atlantic coast. Maybe that's why it was a popular race for a period, attracting a strong field with very impressive lists of winners including Andy Hampsten, Miguel Indurain, Marino Lejarreta, Abraham Olano, Federico Echave, Frank Vandenbroucke, Álvaro Mejía and Lale Cubino. Taking place in August, it was significantly hurt by the move of the Vuelta to September as it was rather too close to the Vuelta to offer a difficult enough parcours, and in recent years it has been an amateur event (most recently won by Aitor González, but not that Aitor González - this one is 24yo and rides for the Ampo amateur team - ahead of ex-pros Jorge Martín Montenegro and Pedro Merino).

With the end of the Karpin/Xacobeo team, however, Galicia has been rather in fashion for the Vuelta, however, as the region still clearly loves and cares for the sport. 2011 saw three stages including an MTF at La Manzaneda and the main TT, plus a stage leaving the region via Ancáres; 2012 saw no fewer than five stages, again including the main TT and an MTF (this time at Ancáres), a year later the race began from Galicia with four stages and then a fifth leaving to Zamora, while another five stages in 2014 saw the race end in the region. The 2015 route bypassed the region for the first time in a while, but clearly the intent is there to keep the sport returning, so I've had the rest day in Lugo and then another big mountain stage in the east of the region today.

This is the shortest road stage of the Vuelta, but into the sub-150km have been crammed five categorized climbs including the last actual MTF of the Vuelta (another cat.2!!!) and the third - and last - ESP categorized climb of the race. The first part of the stage is just rolling before we descend down into the same valley that, further up, serves as the base for the Alto de Ouviaña climb that started the important parts of the pre-rest day beast. Here, however, we leave the road earlier and turn southwards for a nasty cat.1 climb, the Alto del Hospital. Opening up with a couple of repechos before giving way to 5km at nearly 10%, this one will be an early leg-burner with some sweeping curves and dramatic vistas.

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This takes us quite close to A Fonsagrada, which hosted an intermediate sprint on the previous stage, as Hospital is on the same ridge, however we descend straight back down into Lamas for arguably the easiest climb of the day, the second category Alto de Louxas. Those 2km at 8,5% at the start are the main challenge, but the gradients aren't sustained so it won't be likely to cause too much trouble given what's to come. Because we're shooting for the moon here. While I pointed at Galicia having climbs that are similar to Catalunya, and climbs that are similar to Euskadi, neither of those have a climb like this.

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The double climb, of course is the main way to climb the monster that is Ancáres. Sierra Morela is, in and of itself, a perfectly serious climb - over 10km at 6% - but given its location and that it pretty much has to lead into Ancáres, its only function in the Vuelta is in that role. It is hardly unique in that role; Cordal is pretty much only ever used by the Vuelta as the warm-up before Angliru (at least until Unipublic discover Cuchu Puercu) while Passo del Tonale often fulfils this function before Gavia, though unlike Sierra Morela (or in Unipublic parlance, the Alto de Folgueiras de Aigas) Tonale is similarly valuable from either side and has the scope to be a mountaintop finish; Sierra Morela from the east is only a short rise after the shorter, eastern face of Ancáres.

After this, of course, the descent takes us to the base of the all-important climb of the day, however we're not climbing all the way to the Puerto de Ancáres, only to the Cruz de Cespedosa, a couple of kilometres down the climb. The main reasoning behind this is simply that while the Vuelta may have been all about the MTF here in 2012 and 2014, this Vuelta design is intended to make people race from afar, hence the lack of serious mountaintop finishes and the tendency towards brutal chains of shorter steep climbs - you can make some monstrous medium mountain stages in Spain, that's for sure... however, the key moves on this stage will have to be on Cruz de Cespedosa, and given we're going via the astronomically brutal Pan do Zarco side, this means a slightly abridged version of one of the toughest climbs on the Iberian peninsula. The climb is brutal enough via Baloutas, but via Pan do Zarco it's a monster. This narrower, steeper version ramps up immediately with gradients of MURDERKILLDEATH.

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The great thing about this side of the climb is that the respite only comes late; the first eight kilometres are all nasty, all have super steep ramps, and with a max of 20%, it gets really harsh. With the shortest road stage of the race and coming after a rest day, with an easier final climb and a less difficult day to follow tomorrow there is really no excuse not to properly go for it from Cespedosa. It crests with 26km remaining, so it's not like it's a monster solo to do - I can't imagine a post-rest day Contador not being interested in making this one work...

After Cespedosa, a tricky descent through the woods follows as we head southward via Suarból and Piornedo (intermediate sprint in the latter to try to offer a further incentive to the early attack as well) with many technical corners, and rhythm-ruining slight uphill digs that will just have to hurt after the suffering of the previous climb. And then we move into the final climb, the cat.2 ascent to the mountain refuge "Club Ancáres". This is a pretty small finish, admittedly, but there is more room here than there is at either Cruz de Cespedosa or the Puerto de Ancáres, while PRC has shown that there's more space to use here than there is at Abantos, and that's a historic Vuelta staple.

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The profile of the final climb is that it is 7km @ 5,7% though as you will see from that profile it is not at all consistent; you could also if you wanted include the previous false flat ramps around Puente de Ortigal; the idea of PRC in introducing the idea of this ascent was to produce something in Spain akin to the Mortirolo-Aprica double; I think it work to a degree on that. The actual categorizable climb consists of a first kilometre of serious climbing, then four kilometres of false flat before a steep and punchy final two kilometres. This should at least ensure some gaps if the riders are cowards, as with the climbing they already have in their legs today, 1,5km @ 11,6% is enough to create some time. However, my only concern is that 11,6% is steep enough to put some fear into some riders, but you can't realistically expect riders to soft pedal 9km @ 10% in fear of 1500m that are slightly steeper... surely?
 
Oct 4, 2015
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Liking the Ancares(Cespedosa)-Albergue combo in Libertine's stage. Glandon-Madeleine-Val Thorens has been done in the only Tour stage to finish in Val Thorens so far (forgot the year), but it's cool too.

Giro d'Italia Stage 19: Biella - Antagnod (Val d'Ayas), 215km (*****)
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(note: I named Andrate as "La Serra" in the stage profile by mistake.)

Climbs: Andrate (11,1km @ 4,7%), Saint-Barthélémy (19.7km @ 5,6%), Col Saint-Pantaléon (16,3km @ 7,1%), Col d'Arlaz (7,5km @ 8,7%), Col Tzecore (9,8km @ 7,9%), Col de Joux (7km @ 6,8%), Antagnod (8,8km @ 4,8%).

While stage 15 was the queen stage of the race, stage 19 isn't actually too far behind in difficulty.
The stage takes place in the Valle d'Aosta, a tight valley containing some of the highest peaks of the Alps. This stage ends in the Val d'Ayas, near the foot of the Alps's second highest peak, Monte Rosa.
And, while it doesn't feature any leg-shattering climbs (like Mortirolo or Monte Padrio in stage 15), it features a rollercoaster of difficult climbs in its last 140km.
The stage starts off relatively easy, with the long and shallow ascent to Andrate being the only climb of note, as we enter the Aosta valley from the south.
The calm ends at Villefranche, however, as we start the irregular ascent to Saint-Barthélémy.
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Then, with little time to recover after the descent, we have the climb to Saint-Pantaléon, steeper and less irregular than Saint-Barthélémy.
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We then get the biggest breather of the stage's second half, as we go through Saint-Vincent, before entering the decisive part of the stage. Starting off with the short yet very steep Col d'Arlaz, with its first 5km around 10%.
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After the climb's short descent, we take on the second half of Col Tzecore (from km 9,8 in the profile below), including 3 very steep kms averaging 11% towards the middle of the climb.
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The climb is quickly followed by the final kms of the west side of Col de Joux (from km 7 in the profile below). The slopes are much manageable here, but the damage should be already done by now.
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The summit finish in Antagnod is shallow and irregular, and should only serve to further establish any gaps made throughout the stage. With so much climbing along the way, plus the accumulated wear of the race, the gaps should be big. If any team wants to try and turn the GC on its head late in the race, the time is now.
 
Oct 27, 2015
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@ Andrew :

if you want a tougher stage with the same start & finish, you may add the Grandes Naves climb on the opposite slope of the Tarentaise Valley : the start is almost at the end of the Madeleine descent and its own descent arrives right before Moutiers.

It would give a profile like that :
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Quite a murderous stage ...
 
Broken_Leg said:
@ Andrew :

if you want a tougher stage with the same start & finish, you may add the Grandes Naves climb on the opposite slope of the Tarentaise Valley : the start is almost at the end of the Madeleine descent and its own descent arrives right before Moutiers.

It would give a profile like that :
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Quite a murderous stage ...

As fun a stage as that would be, the main problem by making the stage tougher would be that it would kill the previous stages as riders would save their energy. This stage will be close enough to doing that with the difficulty of this week(and the stage that will be posted later today). On another note, combine your route with the alternative I mentioned by hitting the Croix de Fer, Mollard, Chaussy, Madeleine, Your climb, and then Val Thorens. Ouch
 
Jun 30, 2014
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I've never posted a full TdF in this thread, but I worked on a few and usually have a Val Thorens stage ( I even designed exactly the same stage as the one posted by Broken_Leg) as the first of three consecutive high mountain stages with an easy mountain stage, maybe an easy Verbier stage like the 2009 TdF stage, as the second consecutive stage in the high mountains, the third one always ends up being a really long monster stage that allows long range attacks.
 
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52520Andrew said:
Broken_Leg said:
@ Andrew :

if you want a tougher stage with the same start & finish, you may add the Grandes Naves climb on the opposite slope of the Tarentaise Valley : the start is almost at the end of the Madeleine descent and its own descent arrives right before Moutiers.

It would give a profile like that :
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Quite a murderous stage ...

As fun a stage as that would be, the main problem by making the stage tougher would be that it would kill the previous stages as riders would save their energy. This stage will be close enough to doing that with the difficulty of this week(and the stage that will be posted later today). On another note, combine your route with the alternative I mentioned by hitting the Croix de Fer, Mollard, Chaussy, Madeleine, Your climb, and then Val Thorens. Ouch

Thats true.
But really, this only applies to the previous stage. Which is an ITT, so, really, i dont believe that you have to hold back there.
Still, Glandon+Madeleine, thats enough to see some sparkles.


Mayomaniac said:
I've never posted a full TdF in this thread, but I worked on a few and usually have a Val Thorens stage ( I even designed exactly the same stage as the one posted by Broken_Leg) as the first of three consecutive high mountain stages with an easy mountain stage, maybe an easy Verbier stage like the 2009 TdF stage, as the second consecutive stage in the high mountains, the third one always ends up being a really long monster stage that allows long range attacks.

Now, i'm not so sure about this. Riders do save their energy, and having the toughest of the mountain stages as the last one, i'm not convinced about it.
We had some examples of monster mountain stages to end the Tour, and that often gave us poor racing.
 
Jun 30, 2014
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Yes, it's a bit problematic, maybe the final mountain stage shouldn't be the hardest one, but it worked in the 2011 Giro with the brutal Gardeccia stage as the third consecutive mountain stage after Großglockner and Zoncolan, we only saw rather conservative racing on the Zoncolan stage, the Großglockner stage created big gaps.
 
Yea, if the middle one is an easier one, you need the finishing climb to be so difficult it will definitely create gaps in and of itself. Think of Zoncolan the day before the Rifugio Gardeccia stage in 2011. I'm not opposed to the idea, but I think you'd need a tougher finishing climb than Verbier to make that work. There are some places around there large enough to host the Tour where you could MTF after an easier stage though, all flat then Forclaz-Gueulaz would work, Thyon 2000 and Plateau de Solaison might be too small but Anzère could definitely host as could Plateau des Saix, obviously Le Semnoz could as well. Further into the heart of the Alps there are steeper climbs like Le Collet d'Allevard that we saw in the Dauphiné a few years ago. Of course with many of these it's wasteful to do them in easier stages (hence why I don't mention, say, Granon), but they are doable off the back of only a couple of smaller climbs to give an easier middle stage of a triple-header.
 
Steven Roots said:
52520Andrew said:
Broken_Leg said:
@ Andrew :

if you want a tougher stage with the same start & finish, you may add the Grandes Naves climb on the opposite slope of the Tarentaise Valley : the start is almost at the end of the Madeleine descent and its own descent arrives right before Moutiers.

It would give a profile like that :
ZWIRuh.png


Quite a murderous stage ...

As fun a stage as that would be, the main problem by making the stage tougher would be that it would kill the previous stages as riders would save their energy. This stage will be close enough to doing that with the difficulty of this week(and the stage that will be posted later today). On another note, combine your route with the alternative I mentioned by hitting the Croix de Fer, Mollard, Chaussy, Madeleine, Your climb, and then Val Thorens. Ouch

Thats true.
But really, this only applies to the previous stage. Which is an ITT, so, really, i dont believe that you have to hold back there.
Still, Glandon+Madeleine, thats enough to see some sparkles.

Yeah this stage is still harder than any stage in the Tour this year, the main theme of this stage is just the attrition of this week adding up. To recap we have had the flat stage, the Turini stage, the Nice Barcelonnette stage, the ITT, and now this. These guys are going to be very tired by this point no matter how they pedal it and it is going to come to a head on this next stage.
 
DACH Rundfahrt stage 16: Nauders - St. Moritz (192 km)

difficulty: ****

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The last three stages before the rest day already were mountain stages, but I think its always a waste to not make a gc relevant stage on the day after the rest day, because the riders are rested and have the energy to go for long range attacks. That also means, that I think the stage after the rest day isnt a good place for a hard mtf, because I prefer to place them before another mountain stage (and making a fifth mountain stage in a row would be very strange).
This is the beginning of the last week, which means that the riders arrive in Switzerland today. However the start is still in Austria, exactly in Nauders, a town near the top of the Reschenpass, so the riders aren't only close to Switzerland, but also only a few kilometers away of the Italian border.
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The beginning of the stage is a very strange one, because after only about 2 k's there is a 6 kilometer long, and very technical descent, with 10 switchbacks. That means that the break will be formed on a descent...I guess...well, actually I have no idea. Ofc its also possible that the break will develop as soon as the peloton arrives on the flat section, but personally I just have never seen something like that. Besides that the first 50 kilometers are rather boring, with only one climb, up to Ardez. The riders better enjoy this first part of the stage, because the rest will be absolutely brutal.

First the riders have to face the combo of the two third category climbs Ova Spin and the Ofenpass. While the first one is a consistant climb medium gradients, while the Ofenpass has a lower average elevation gain, but has a very steep section at the end. The Ofenpass is followed by a long, but not very technical descent, which leads to the intermediate sprint in Santa Maria Val Müstair.
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Then it gets really interesting, with the start of the hardest climb of the stage, the Umbrailpass. The Umbrailpass is the highest pass of Switzerland, and an extremely difficult one. However this pass is rather unknown because it has a parallel pass, which is the Passo dello Stelvio. So the giro never uses it because why should you use the Umbrailpass when you have the Stelvio, and the Tour de Suisse hardly ever uses it because it leads to another country (and it seems as if the possible stage finishes in Italy don't pay as much as the Serfaus and Sölden in Austria). But this is a completely new race which wants to use some iconic climbs and the highest pass of Switzerland is definitely a good option for. that.
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The riders descend into Bormio, a city which has hosted numerous giro stage finishes, but in this case there is only an intermediate sprint in one of Italy's most famous ski resort. Bormio is also the place where the last 1 really difficult climb of the day starts, the Passo di Foscagno. This is another climb which was already used some times in the Giro, lastly in 2010. While the Ubrailpass is difficult because its steepness the difficulty about the Passo di Foscagno is its length. The climb is only about 5% steep, but 22 kilometers long which makes this pass very difficult. Moreover there is a short flat section in the first half of the climb, so the gradients are actually higher than 5%. If a rider has a very big disadvantage at this point of the stage, he will maybe already attack, but I think its more likely that this pass will isolate most riders and set up an attack on one of the next few ascents.
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And the riders don't have to wait very long until they go uphill again because after only 5 kilometers of descending the street goes upwards again, until the riders arrive on the Passo d'Eira. However that is only a fourth cat. climb which is only 2 kilometers long. This little bump will surely hurt, but I doubt that it will make a big difference. Same counts for the descent which isnt that easy but still not difficult enough that someone might attack.

However there isnt really any flat before the start of the next climb, which is the Forcola di Livigno, the pass which brings the riders back to Switzerland. This climb also isnt very steep, but it might still cause action because the riders aren't wide away from the finish anymore. When someone wants to take time on his rivals he should better attack here, because although this isnt the last climb of the stage, I doubt that you can take much time with an attack on the final ascent of the day.
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This last climb is the Berninapass, a climb which is normally known as a monster with 1900 meters altitude difference, but in this case its only about 300 meters because the riders enter the street which leads to the pass at an altitude of already 2050 meters. However the remaining 3 kilometers are pretty steep and gaps can definitely still be created here. Moreover its not that unlikely that riders are already all over the road when they arrive here, and in such a case this ascent might be very entertaining to watch.
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After the short but steep ascent the riders have to go up a long but not very steep descent. This descent leads the riders directly to the St. Moritz where the stage will finish, but before the riders can rest they still have to go up a short but steep ramp, so basically a Purito finish.
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I probably say that too often, but I really don't know who this stage would be. On the one hand the last really difficult climb is very far away from the finish, but on the other hand the last 15 kilometers of this stage are basically always up and down, so its just hard to imagine that nothing happens on such a day. Moreover there are only two more mountain stages to come, and as well as another ITT so climbers who aren't goo in TT's should better try something.
 
Valverde ftw.

Great designs all of you. As it relates to the TdF stage to Val-Thorens, I stick with 52520Andrew: he has a big picture view that makes sense IMO. Another one of his stages that make me shake in my boots wrt my own design. It seems like there are several TdFs ready to be posted. All of you concerned, let's establish an order. I'm at stage 17 of the narrative, have all the pics and profiles saved (some have been for months), in a matter of days, maybe a week, I'll be ready to shoot my entire route in two hours max.
 
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bp92 said:
So, two rollercoaster mountain stages, then a 51km mixed TT, then Val Thorens... then another mountain stage?


Yup, 4 days in the Alps along with a fairly long ITT will be the meat of my Tour here. 3rd week won't be as hard, my main focus there is to prevent too much recovery.
 
Stage 15

Stage 15: Saint - Pierre - D'Albigny - Mont du Chat 188.5 km

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Time for the Sunday stage, we will start this one off with another bang up the Col du Frene although it is mainly to establish the break and things will flatten out a bit after that. We get to the sprint point in Rumilly about 50 km in and things are not looking so bad for the riders. Not for much longer. We start by having a fairly quick warm up climb up the Cote de Droisy before descending and hitting the first real challenge of the day, the Biche.

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The Biche is a fairly steep climb but is fairly regular so hopefully with a rest day tomorrow we see someone ride tempo up the climb and trim the fat of the peleton. This is one of those climbs that has never been in the Tour before which is a shame because it is next to another great climb(that is coming up) and could be a lot of fun.

The Grand Colombier is next and we are hitting the climb proper by going to Artemare and climbing this beast in full. The climb does not start off too bad from here but once we get to the steep area, it is tough to find a harder road in France as we average over 10% for a good way and get up to 18% for 400m. I don't care how these guys want to ride it, these gradients combined with how tired the riders are is going to tear things apart, especially with a rest day coming up so the riders have no reason to hold back. We have a twisty descent into Culoz next before a bit of flat as we head towards another climb.

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I tried to make this as bumpy as I could, there will be the largest bit of flat at the start but it is 8 km in length which is less than the flat at the bottom of the climb in the actual tour route. These guys are going to be tired at this point so these couple bumps including the Cote de Ontex hopefully keep any chase at bay before we descend into Le Bourget-du-Lac and get a sprint point to hopefully encourage an earlier move. If anyone is able to latch back on, they are going to have their work cut out for them with the final climb.

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Yeah it is time for the Mont du Chat, a fairly regular but steep climb averaging at around 10% for a good chunk of the way. With how tired these riders are at this point, it should wreak havoc and there is a good chance that some significant gaps form. It is also a MTF before a rest day so there is no reason for the riders to hold back. It will be a bit of a tight squeeze at the top for the post stage stuff but there is a small parking lot that can do that and the cars have the road down the other side where they can park. They are able to have MTFs on Ventoux so while this is a bit tight, I feel it can be done.

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It has been a very tough week going from the flat stage to kick things off, to the Turini stage that is constantly going up and down and should be fun right from the start, to the Nice Barcelonnette stage that takes us over the high point of the tour and adds more work to the legs of the riders, to the hilly ITT in the Alps, to the Val Thorens stage, and now this monster. The riders now get a very well deserved rest day after this tough week and I even am going to be nice and won't give them a long transfer with the next stage starting nearby in Chambery.
 
Tonton said:
Valverde ftw.

Great designs all of you. As it relates to the TdF stage to Val-Thorens, I stick with 52520Andrew: he has a big picture view that makes sense IMO. Another one of his stages that make me shake in my boots wrt my own design. It seems like there are several TdFs ready to be posted. All of you concerned, let's establish an order. I'm at stage 17 of the narrative, have all the pics and profiles saved (some have been for months), in a matter of days, maybe a week, I'll be ready to shoot my entire route in two hours max.

Thanks, as much as I would love to make the Val Thorens stage harder, it is going to be hard enough with the difficulty of this second week. I am going to be done with this Tour around Saturday night(or 6 days from now) just as a heads up. Looking forward to your route
 
Dont really like that stage of yours, Giggs. Umbrailpass seems pretty epic by the looks of it, but imo it's way too far out in modern cycling since the rest of the climbs are relatively easy. I think you are overestimating Foscagna a fair bit too much, unless the field is absolutely shattered after Umbrailpass, and even then, I have a hard time seeing a 2016 peloton going at it 100 kilometers out.
 
Oct 4, 2015
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@52520Andrew: Are riders supposed to end your race, by the way? :p
(also, wouldn't it prevent people from trying anything at the Sospel and Barcelonnette stages, to save up for the TT and the other two MTF stages?)

Giro d'Italia Stage 20: Rivarolo Canavese - Pragelato, 149km (****)
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Climbs: Moncenisio (12,4km @ 7,1%), Colle delle Finestre (18,2km @ 9,3%)

Last chance for the climbers, with a very short mountain stage, featuring one of Italy's most difficult (and unique) climbs at the end of the stage... and little else.
There are only two climbs. The first and easiest of them is Moncenisio; it's still a hard climb on its own, but most likely attacks will be limited to non-GC riders trying to win the stage from the breakaway.
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The second climb, however, is none other than the Colle delle Finestre. Steep, extremely regular, and with a famous unpaved 8km section at the end of the climb.
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This is the last chance to gain some time for the GC. If gaps are relatively narrow then we'll likely see some attacks in the second half of the climb. However, most likely gaps will already be pretty big; someone might try a desperate attack from the bottom of the climb to try and get the time, but it might be too late.
 
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Valv.Piti said:
Dont really like that stage of yours, Giggs. Umbrailpass seems pretty epic by the looks of it, but imo it's way too far out in modern cycling since the rest of the climbs are relatively easy. I think you are overestimating Foscagna a fair bit too much, unless the field is absolutely shattered after Umbrailpass, and even then, I have a hard time seeing a 2016 peloton going at it 100 kilometers out.
Yeah its definitely a very unconventional stage, but maybe you should see this as a medium mountain stage and not as a high mountain stage. Ofc I could also make a simple mtf or a downhill finish after a HC or 1st category climb, but most races have stages like that and ofc this also wont be the last mountain stage. I don't think many people complain about medium mountain stages like the La Spezia stage in this years giro or the Super Lioran stage in next years tour so I think a stage with a finale which isnt super hard can still be very good. The high mountains earlier in the stage probably wont cause any attacks but as I wrote it they could be used as a set up because if the pace up there is high the leaders might be isolated at the top, and we have seen several times that in such situations you don't need monster climbs to get action. And if they aren't isolated, they aren't. Yeah it would be a pity but I prefer many different kind of stages instead of endless mtf's like in the vuelta 2013 (and the fight for the stage should be good anyway)

@bp92
why no sestriere mtf?
 
Oct 4, 2015
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I had established a "only never-used MTF" gimmick for this race, so I couldn't finish in Sestriere. Pragelato was the closest location to Finestre where I could do a realistic non-MTF finish (the other option was Pinerolo, but I decided Pragelato was the better choice).
 
Re:

bp92 said:
I had established a "only never-used MTF" gimmick for this race, so I couldn't finish in Sestriere. Pragelato was the closest location to Finestre where I could do a realistic non-MTF finish (the other option was Pinerolo, but I decided Pragelato was the better choice).
Okay, makes sense :)
 
bp92 said:
@52520Andrew: Are riders supposed to end your race, by the way? :p
(also, wouldn't it prevent people from trying anything at the Sospel and Barcelonnette stages, to save up for the TT and the other two MTF stages?)

They survived the 94 tour alright so they should be good. It will be tough but that is also why I have a 67 km pan flat ITT at the start of things. I think the riders will at least hit the Turini hard on that stage although the Nice Barcelonnette stage is probably not going to see much action. Hated to do it to that stage but at the same time if I wanted that stage to be more decisive, I would probably have taken a different route. My main focus with that stage was to wear the riders down for the weekend and go over some climbs that have not been used before. I at least tried to make the Cayolle have an impact as it is the final climb but it is a fairly long descent so I don't know if much would happen on that one. Sprinters are probably not happy right now but I will try to make it up to them a bit with these next couple stages(but I am not giving any stages away either, they had 3 stages in a row in the first week just for them).
 
Oct 4, 2015
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Hmm... that's a good point.
(also, maybe not a coincidence, but the Val Thorens stage was actually part of the 1994 Tour)
I think the stage order might not be the best (might've been better to have a non-MTF finish after the TT instead of two very difficult MTFs), but it doesn't change the fact that the stages are brutal.
 

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