Race Design Thread

[rghysens]

Re:

When was the last GT mountain stage, where a flat run in provoked early attacks? I can't think of any.

What do you exactly mean with flat run in (10km? 30km?) and early attacks (how early? by whom?)

For meaningful GC action with a not too long flat run in: the stage with the Madeleine in the 2010 TdF.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

When was the last GT mountain stage, where a flat run in provoked early attacks? I can't think of any.

Stage 20 of the Vuelta last year. Besides that there were still many other interesting stages which weren't mtf's like the corvara stage in the giro this year or stage 18 in the giro last year.

To come back to valv.pitis question, the placement of the cividale stage was definitely the problem. One day later a similar finish worked well. The culoz stage was just horribly designed. There was no reason to have a flat section before and after the last climb besides the stupid aso obsession with the lacets. Use that climb as the descent instead and you don't have the stupid flat at the end and you have the most interesting descent of the year.

 

[mb2612]

Re: Re:

When was the last GT mountain stage, where a flat run in provoked early attacks? I can't think of any.

Stage 20 of the Vuelta last year. Besides that there were still many other interesting stages which weren't mtf's like the corvara stage in the giro this year or stage 18 in the giro last year.

To come back to valv.pitis question, the placement of the cividale stage was definitely the problem. One day later a similar finish worked well. The culoz stage was just horribly designed. There was no reason to have a flat section before and after the last climb besides the stupid aso obsession with the lacets. Use that climb as the descent instead and you don't have the stupid flat at the end and you have the most interesting descent of the year.

Stage 20 at the Vuelta was a descent finish, apart from the final km,which was uphill. The 2010 tdf was a good example, thanks rghysens.

I don't think descent finishes are a problem, but when riders look at a stage with a >5km flat run in, I wonder if they all just assume that a group would pull them back, so there's no point attacking.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

When was the last GT mountain stage, where a flat run in provoked early attacks? I can't think of any.

Stage 20 of the Vuelta last year. Besides that there were still many other interesting stages which weren't mtf's like the corvara stage in the giro this year or stage 18 in the giro last year.

To come back to valv.pitis question, the placement of the cividale stage was definitely the problem. One day later a similar finish worked well. The culoz stage was just horribly designed. There was no reason to have a flat section before and after the last climb besides the stupid aso obsession with the lacets. Use that climb as the descent instead and you don't have the stupid flat at the end and you have the most interesting descent of the year.

Stage 20 at the Vuelta was a descent finish, apart from the final km,which was uphill. The 2010 tdf was a good example, thanks rghysens.

I don't think descent finishes are a problem, but when riders look at a stage with a >5km flat run in, I wonder if they all just assume that a group would pull them back, so there's no point attacking.

Sorry, I misunderstood the question and thought you were talking about downhill finishes. However the example of stage 18 in the giro last year still works although thecircumstances were of course very special.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

When was the last GT mountain stage, where a flat run in provoked early attacks? I can't think of any.

Stage 20 of the Vuelta last year. Besides that there were still many other interesting stages which weren't mtf's like the corvara stage in the giro this year or stage 18 in the giro last year.

To come back to valv.pitis question, the placement of the cividale stage was definitely the problem. One day later a similar finish worked well. The culoz stage was just horribly designed. There was no reason to have a flat section before and after the last climb besides the stupid aso obsession with the lacets. Use that climb as the descent instead and you don't have the stupid flat at the end and you have the most interesting descent of the year.

Great points. And in all fairness to the climb and its reputation, the ascent should have been Artemare-Virieu, the hardest.

 

[52520Andrew]

Re: Re:

When was the last GT mountain stage, where a flat run in provoked early attacks? I can't think of any.

Stage 20 of the Vuelta last year. Besides that there were still many other interesting stages which weren't mtf's like the corvara stage in the giro this year or stage 18 in the giro last year.

To come back to valv.pitis question, the placement of the cividale stage was definitely the problem. One day later a similar finish worked well. The culoz stage was just horribly designed. There was no reason to have a flat section before and after the last climb besides the stupid aso obsession with the lacets. Use that climb as the descent instead and you don't have the stupid flat at the end and you have the most interesting descent of the year.

Great points. And in all fairness to the climb and its reputation, the ascent should have been Artemare-Virieu, the hardest.

While the climb starting in Artemare would have been fine with me, they didn't even have to start it in Artemare due to the direction they came from. It would have been about 3 kms to Virieu from where they went up(Lochieu) and it would have been over the hardest part of the climb.

As for flat after a climb, I think the answer like most things is balance. You have to take into account who is racing, what the main climb is, and what is following it up.

If you have a year with Contador and Schleck going head to head, just make sure the route goes up at some point and you should have a fun stage. A year like this year however with a sky train ready to eat into any attacks, is far harder to get riders to attack and flat after a climb can be less effective since it gives the sky train more ground to eat into any gaps and groups can recover. I think a pretty good counter to this is a climb like Aprica or like stage 15 in this year's Giro having a Muro del Gatto there so that it isn't all flat to the finish and riders still are feeling the pain. Granted these finishes aren't pan flat but neither would be considered a significant climb on their own. 2 9 km stretches of flat at the end like that just was too much with nothing to give an attacker something to work with in those stretches.

I think the last key piece is the main climb as it needs to be hard enough that riders aren't afraid to attack from far out and with stronger teams in the Tour in particular, this threshold is increased IMO. Aprica wouldn't see all that much racing if they didn't put one of the toughest climbs in cycling in the Mortirolo before it. This is where I think going up via Virieu would have helped. A hard tempo on the first climb could have dropped a lot of fat in the peloton and maybe cracked some contenders giving the rest of the group incentive to ride all out. The 9 kms of flat before and after the last climb wouldn't have helped but if Tejay had dropped earlier for instance due to a harder initial climb, it could have led to better racing as a lot of people would have wanted to distance him.

The placement for this stage was fine as there was a sprint stage the next day and a rest day but too much flat, a strong team sky, and a penultimate climb not quite hard enough hurt the action.

 

[railxmig]

Re: Re:

The placement for this stage was fine as there was a sprint stage the next day and a rest day but too much flat, a strong team sky, and a penultimate climb not quite hard enough hurt the action.

5km at over 10% is quite meaningful but i'm not sure if it would be enough for Sky. It would need some sort of simulations to check out but a fine proposition nontheless.

I think a pretty good counter to this is a climb like Aprica or like stage 15 in this year's Giro having a Muro del Gatto there so that it isn't all flat to the finish and riders still are feeling the pain.

Technically Culoz has such proposition, but of course not as steep as Gatto. There is a small route, not as narrow as Gatto, but in a worser condition. It goes via Rue Amiral Jean Serpollet and Rue des Crêts to connect with the bootom of the last climb. It could be a part of the previous lap too. Sadly this bump is only like 1km long and it's two-stepped which limits the avg to around 4,5% but these two steep parts are definitely over 10%. Of course such change in course would change the run-in to the finish. I would propose to move the finish slightly closer to Culoz (difference of 100m) to have it at the end of roughly 500m straight. Then the bump i proposed would be roughly 1,3km off the finish line. I doubt such thing would do anything compared with the original course.

Aprica wouldn't see all that much racing if they didn't put one of the toughest climbs in cycling in the Mortirolo before it.

Sorry but Aprica is lame. I consider Mortirolo only when followed up with Gavia and a descent finish in Bormio . A slightly different but similar in parameters side of Mortirolo managed to destroy the peloton on the Stelvio stage in 2012 and give de Gent chance to scare the leaders. If i remember correctly in 2004 it did similar things with Simoni attacking the entire stage (it later went via Vivione but i forgot if it ended on Monte Pora). I allways wondered how it would be to link Stelvio - Mortirolo - Gavia in this particular order.

 

[52520Andrew]

Re: Re:

The placement for this stage was fine as there was a sprint stage the next day and a rest day but too much flat, a strong team sky, and a penultimate climb not quite hard enough hurt the action.

5km at over 10% is quite meaningful but i'm not sure if it would be enough for Sky. It would need some sort of simulations to check out but a fine proposition nontheless.

I think a pretty good counter to this is a climb like Aprica or like stage 15 in this year's Giro having a Muro del Gatto there so that it isn't all flat to the finish and riders still are feeling the pain.

Technically Culoz has such proposition, but of course not as steep as Gatto. There is a small route, not as narrow as Gatto, but in a worser condition. It goes via Rue Amiral Jean Serpollet and Rue des Crêts to connect with the bootom of the last climb. It could be a part of the previous lap too. Sadly this bump is only like 1km long and it's two-stepped which limits the avg to around 4,5% but these two steep parts are definitely over 10%. Of course such change in course would change the run-in to the finish. I would propose to move the finish slightly closer to Culoz (difference of 100m) to have it at the end of roughly 500m straight. Then the bump i proposed would be roughly 1,3km off the finish line. I doubt such thing would do anything compared with the original course.

Aprica wouldn't see all that much racing if they didn't put one of the toughest climbs in cycling in the Mortirolo before it.

Sorry but Aprica is lame. I consider Mortirolo only when followed up with Gavia and a descent finish in Bormio . A slightly different but similar in parameters side of Mortirolo managed to destroy the peloton on the Stelvio stage in 2012 and give de Gent chance to scare the leaders. If i remember correctly in 2004 it did similar things with Simoni attacking the entire stage (it later went via Vivione but i forgot if it ended on Monte Pora). I allways wondered how it would be to link Stelvio - Mortirolo - Gavia in this particular order.

Yeah no guarentee it would do anything with how good sky is but it would not have been hard at all to go up that route and it couldn't have hurt the potential action since it was early. Plus Astana was pulling up the Grand Colombier anyways and that was putting a lot of riders in difficulty.

That could be a fun addition although like you say, I don't know if it would make a huge difference since you still have 9 pan flat kms. Pretty solid find though.

Yeah Aprica after Mortirolo is starting to get a bit too common for my liking but it is a great example of of a smaller climb, and by the end flalse flat, being very effective after a bigger one to see some good racing. Not too big that it prevents attacks on the Mortirolo but not too small where you wouldn't be able to get away.

The Stelvio, Mortirolo, Gavia stage would be something else with all the history those climbs have and it would be a heck of a stage. I think someone used it in the original Race Design Challenge as well. You have so much to work with in Italy that it is harder to make a bad stage than a good one with all the climbs available. And that goes for just about all of Italy as well, so much stuff to work with. Really excited to see what the route looks like for the Giro next year.

 

[52520Andrew]

Now that the Tour is over, time to finish my Tour of California

Tour of California Stage 13: Redding - Red Bluff 227.6 kms

This stage is the last sliver of opportunity to gain time before the final parade stage tomorrow. This will not be easy to do however since there is no meaningful climbing in the last 60+ kms so if you want to gain time, the race needs to be ridden hard from the start and you need to gain time by dropping your rivals off the back. This can happen as the first half of this stage is almost entirely climbing and while the climbing isn't steep, it can add up and we get into high altitude again which can very well wear some of the riders down. The time trial yesterday and queen stage before that should have tired the riders out and if this stage is ridden right, it could get interesting. Alternatively, it should be a nice battleground for the break to get a final win as the sprinters teams will be all out to control the stage tomorrow.

The most dangerous stretch of climbing today is the Wilson Hill climb which starts out innocently enough before ramping up to around 8% for the final kms. The riders don't have a chance to rest after this as it is false flat right up to the next climb of Nobles Pass before a small descent and a climb up to Lassen Peak at nearly 2600 meters. If a hard tempo is set in this early part, things could get interesting as there is not much opportunity to rest but a lot of it is dependent on the situation.

The second half of this stage is pretty much all downhill besides a couple bumps and it should be pretty fast to the finish. The action in this section depends on how fast the peloton is riding.

If the action in this stage is lacking, the scenery in Lassen Volcanic National Park should help make up for it as we transition south for the finish of the race.

What makes this stage unrealistic?

Overall this one should be fine

Up next we have a short transfer to Chico where the final stage will start.

 

[52520Andrew]

Tour of California Stage 14: Chico - Sacramento 169.8 kms

Time for the final parade stage as we finish in front of the State Capital. Pretty standard stuff. The race will finish on the 3rd pass of the capital(about 2 1/2 circuits) with the circuit being about 4.5 kms in length. The sprint is in Yuba City.

What makes this stage unrealistic?

Nothing

And that wraps up my Tour of California, a couple long delays there as time this spring was hard to come by but hopefully you all enjoyed it. I'll be posting a library post here as well to make sure things are easier to follow. The route is not realistic at all but it shows a lot of the potential California has in terms of climbs and was fun to put together. Up next I will be heading back to Europe as I have made significant progress on my first Giro.

 

[52520Andrew]

Tour of California Recap

Stage 1: viewtopic.php?p=1859980#p1859980

Stage 2: viewtopic.php?p=1860375#p1860375

Stage 3: viewtopic.php?p=1940396#p1940396

Stage 4: viewtopic.php?p=1941054#p1941054

Stage 5: viewtopic.php?p=1942405#p1942405

Stage 6: viewtopic.php?p=1943964#p1943964

Stage 7: viewtopic.php?p=1945842#p1945842

Stage 8(ITT): viewtopic.php?p=1946783#p1946783

Rest

Stage 9: viewtopic.php?p=1950131#p1950131

Stage 10: viewtopic.php?p=1950931#p1950931

Stage 11: viewtopic.php?p=1952333#p1952333

Stage 12(ITT): viewtopic.php?p=1962386#p1962386

Stage 13: viewtopic.php?p=1987346#p1987346

Stage 14: viewtopic.php?p=1987361#p1987361

 

[montel]

52520Andrew a 14 Day Tour of California would be nice...

I think they could easily try to stretch the duration of the race from Friday to Sunday with a prologue TT on Friday at night in a nice downtown district (Think Old Town Sacramento or Gas Lamp San Diego).

Then you could work North or South and get a bit more of the state in like 52520Andrew cool race design has. I think the Mt. Diablo stage above is great with the 2 climbs on Diablo. Yosemite would be awesome, but they tried to get a finish there a few years ago and the Park told them NO WAY!

I have thought about some cool stages in the state that would work really well for the race - Gibraltar Road was one they finally put in this year, but I wonder if they could get a TT on 17 mile drive?

Also a stage back on the Santa Cruz/San Mateo coast with a loop finish up Bonny Doon road, down Empire Grade to Hwy 1 North with a second time up Bonny Doon Road and a MTF at Smith Grade. The loop finishes are great for spectators and TV. It lets a city "host" a finish but keeps it from major traffic hassles.

 

[Sciocco]

Finally getting around to posting a race for the first time after being interested in doing so for a while. My initial plan was to make a three stage foreign start for the Giro in Montenegro and then post it and hopefully get some feedback. I decided to toss that as most GT foreign starts are boring and just make a one day race along the Montenegro coast and around the bay of Kotor instead.
Libertine, thank you for answering my questions back in June or so. I attempted to move my race into Cronoescalada and it just kept giving me errors so I moved on.

Bar-Herceg Novi 221.4KM

The race starts in Bar on the marina then takes a quick tour through town, including passing the Hram Svetog Jovana Vladimira and the Sportska Dvorana Topolica before heading north out of town and up the coast.

After riding up the coast for approximately 10km the race will meet its first climb in Mišići, albeit an easy one at merely 1.9km in length with an average gradient of 6.2%. Following the climb there is an easy descent as the race continues up the coast towards Petrovac. Upon reaching Petrovac the race takes a turn and heads inland which of course means riding up in this part of the world. Leaving Petrovac on the M2 roadway the race tackles its second climb of the day of 9km in length with a 6.6% gradient. After reaching the top of the climb there are a few kilometers of mostly flat before an approximately 5km descent on the other side of the mountain which leads to start of the next climb. This third climb is the longest thus far at 11.4km and has a shallower average gradient at 4.8% but it is rather irregular. Along the 11.4km are several stretches of flat and false flats that combine with steeper sections, including one section with a gradient of 8.1% for 2.7km and another section of 7.9% for 1.6km. After reaching the top of the climb there is a roughly 16km descent into the town of Budva.

Upon reaching Budva the race cuts through town on the main road before a right hand turn that leads it to the fourth climb of the day. This fourth climb to Top Hill is 2km long with a 9.0% gradient.

The race heads right back down the mountain on the other side and into the valley but only a few kilometers later another climb starts. Once the race reaches Glavati it turns off of the main road and heads up the mountain on the other side of the valley for a 3.5km at 8.7% climb. The fifth on the day. This is followed by some rolling terrain before descending back into valley and onto the main road again in Radanovici. The race continues on the main road for nearly 10km before the next climb a wall of 10.7% for 900 meters. Only a few kilometers later the race takes on the seventh climb, this time up on Vrmac mountain. The climb itself is 8.7km in length at a 7.6% gradient and is followed by a 13km long descent that is fast at times on the way down to Kotor.

Next, there are nearly 20km of flat along the bay of Kotor as the race heads to Risan. Once in Risan the race heads back up into the mountains for a 15km, 5.1% climb. Following that there is a short descent as the race heads to the P11 roadway for a few kilometers of false flat and then about 13km of descending back to the bay in the town of Lipci. Barely a kilometer later the race heads back inland and back uphill for the climb to the village of Baloči. This climb is 6.6km in length with a gradient of 9.4% which includes a first three kilometers at 12.9%. Immediately after a short descent there is a 800m climb at 8.7% before the descent to Kamenari on the bay of Kotor.

Upon reaching Kamenari there are about 20km remaining in the race, the first 12km of which are mostly flat along the bay. The penultimate climb comes up next in the town of Meljine as a 500m wall with a 15.6% gradient. This is accessed by leaving the main coastal roadway and heading up through the town streets and up the hill above the town before plunging right back down to the main road. After this the road finally enters Herceg Novi as the last few kilometers are upon it. The race leaves the main road one last time to go up into the hills for a rather gentle 5.3% for 2km climb. There are a little less than 3km left after the top of the climb is reached which leads to a nearly 1km steep descent through Topla. The race reaches the main road to make a right hand turn and then 200m later makes a left hand turn which leaves about 1km left in the race. This final kilometer starts off slightly downhill before the final 800m drag to the finish which has a gradient of 3.8%. The race finishes on the road next to the Dvorana/Hotel Boka's park.

Race profile again with climb table summary:

1. 1.9km, 6.2%
2. 9km, 6.6%
3. 11.4km, 4.8%
4. 2km, 9.0%
5. 3.5km, 8.7%
6. 900m, 10.7%
7. 8.7km, 7.6%
8. 15km, 5.1%
9. 6.6km, 9.4%
10. 500m, 15.6%
11. 2km, 5.3%

Oh *** it's finished.

Any feedback is appreciated. What I'd really like to design are stage races, preferably here in the US as that's where I reside. I have a 9 stage race for Pennsylvania on Openrunner but it definitely needs some work as I probably have a little too much ITT and the last couple of road stages don't flow well.

 

[fauniera]

Re:

Bar-Herceg Novi 221.4KM

Love it. One of the most beautiful regions of Europe, too.

 

[52520Andrew]

Re:

52520Andrew a 14 Day Tour of California would be nice...

I think they could easily try to stretch the duration of the race from Friday to Sunday with a prologue TT on Friday at night in a nice downtown district (Think Old Town Sacramento or Gas Lamp San Diego).

Then you could work North or South and get a bit more of the state in like 52520Andrew cool race design has. I think the Mt. Diablo stage above is great with the 2 climbs on Diablo. Yosemite would be awesome, but they tried to get a finish there a few years ago and the Park told them NO WAY!

I have thought about some cool stages in the state that would work really well for the race - Gibraltar Road was one they finally put in this year, but I wonder if they could get a TT on 17 mile drive?

Also a stage back on the Santa Cruz/San Mateo coast with a loop finish up Bonny Doon road, down Empire Grade to Hwy 1 North with a second time up Bonny Doon Road and a MTF at Smith Grade. The loop finishes are great for spectators and TV. It lets a city "host" a finish but keeps it from major traffic hassles.

Thanks for the compliments. I was pretty tempted to go along the coast and do climbs like Gibraltar road but I really wanted to go inland and show off Owens Valley as I think the climbs there are some of the best in the country. Probably would go up the coast more if I ever did another Tour of California. Would aim to keep it more realistic(not that it would be much of a challenge considering some of the logistics issues with this version) but include some of the climbs you mentioned. The Lake Tahoe region has some potential as well that has yet to be explored but you would have to worry about snow IRL.

I also saw that someone had made a 21 stage Tour of California that you may be interested in looking at. Some pretty solid stages in that and they go to a lot of regions I didn't explore. First stage is here

viewtopic.php?p=1717104#p1717104

It is a shame about Yosemite but it makes sense as they have enough crowds anyways and having to close the road for a race would have led to a lot of congestion.

The real Tour of California is improving and I hope that it continues to grow so that some of these areas can be explored a bit more. I really enjoyed the stage they had this year ending in Laguna Seca.

 

[SammyLarns]

2021 Tour de France

I've spent the last few months looking at races in the undiscovered parts of the world; Tour of Cambodia, Tour of Issyk Kul in Kyrgyzstan. However, I decided to jump firmly back into the mainstream with an edition of the Tour de France. I should point out here, I haven't really done any revolutionary with the route, I think that one of the joys of designing a TdF is that you really have to stick to the major routes, almost without exception. That reduction in scope presents an interesting challenge to still create an exciting route.
I've decided to start the race in Denmark, based on the rumours that a Tour will begin there in the 5-7 year future. We'll then trend west into the Jura and then into the Northern Alps. I'm very happy with the final week in the Pyrenees but I've tried not to backend the drama and the mountains. I'll kick off with the first three stages here but I'd love to hear your thoughts about the race and stuff I should've missed. I'll go back to the esoteric races in the near future.

Stage 1 - Copenhagen TTT - 14.6km

Screen Shot 2016-07-29 at 2.38.34 PM by Sam Larner, on Flickr

Screen Shot 2016-07-29 at 2.38.46 PM by Sam Larner, on Flickr

It's a fast opening team time trial setting out from the island of Christiana. The riders will tackle minimal technical patches in the first 5km as they race through the city, passed the Tivoli Gardens, and out north along the coast road. The city is sheltered somewhat by Sweden but where there's a coastal road there's a chance of wind playing a serious role in the proceedings. The final third of the course has three 90 degree bends but they're linked by long stretches of straight which should keep the average speed up. The fastest ever Tour stage was 57.7kp/h, that could be under threat with this run.

Stage 2 - Copenhagen - Odense 169.8km

Screen Shot 2016-07-29 at 2.41.04 PM by Sam Larner, on Flickr

Screen Shot 2016-07-29 at 2.41.26 PM by Sam Larner, on Flickr

If the wind doesn't blow, this is one of the easiest stages on the whole Tour. There's just 690m of climbing and no classified climbs on the course. However, we do cross the Great Belt Bridge which means that for 17km the peloton will be at the mercy of the sea breeze. There could be a huge number of riders who completely fade away from contention after this stage.

Stage 3 - Kolding - Kiel 191km

Screen Shot 2016-07-29 at 2.42.15 PM by Sam Larner, on Flickr

Screen Shot 2016-07-29 at 2.42.32 PM by Sam Larner, on Flickr

Another flat stage, another stage with no categorised climbs - that continues in stage 4. The stage should be slightly more straightforward because we're setback from the coast so the wind should be less of an issue. But, after two and a half stages we're departing Denmark and heading into Germany. The last 3kms are quite technical and the finish is on the harbour front so the wind my play a part in deciding how late the sprint begins.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Carrefour will not be happy with you, nobody to give the maillot à pois to for several days. At least categorize one of those little bumps in stage 3 (there are definitely some cat.4-able pseudo-climbs around Aabenraa) as cat.4 so somebody can get the jersey and wear it until we get to some actual climbs like in the Giro. Would also have the benefit of increasing people's desire to get into the break if they're guaranteed a couple of days in a classification leader's jersey and can go onto the podium at the end of a couple more flat days

 

[SammyLarns]

2021 Tour de France

The opening weekend has been one for the sprinters but the next three days trend away from the coast and towards France. We won't actually be in France until the end of stage 6 so there's plenty of time to get used to Germany.

Stage 4 - Hamburg - Willemshaven 202.1km

Screen Shot 2016-07-29 at 4.24.06 PM by Sam Larner, on Flickr

Screen Shot 2016-07-29 at 4.24.16 PM by Sam Larner, on Flickr

The start of stage 4 takes place along the banks of the Elbe river, where the peloton should get some relief from the North Sea wind. However, the finale takes place almost entirely on the same coast that completely split the peloton in stage 2 of the 2015 Tour. This is the final stage in the first week where wind will be a serious factor so expect the Classics teams to take advantage.

Stage 5 - Dortmund - Bonn 147.8km

Screen Shot 2016-07-29 at 4.25.01 PM by Sam Larner, on Flickr

Screen Shot 2016-07-29 at 4.25.10 PM by Sam Larner, on Flickr

Finally, after four stages, we have the first classified climb, and there's four of them this stage. The first half of the stage is lumpy in the Central Uplands before the sprinters will take over on the final 70km run in to Bonn, on the banks of the Rhine. It will be a good chance for the GC riders to stretch their legs after a stressful few days along the coast.

Stage 6 - Nurburg - Thionville 207.1km

Screen Shot 2016-07-29 at 4.47.16 PM by Sam Larner, on Flickr

Screen Shot 2016-07-29 at 4.47.33 PM by Sam Larner, on Flickr

This stage could mix things up, starting from the Nurburgring the riders will have a difficult opening few kilometres where attacks could go. The stage eases up around halfway but it gets tougher towards the end. The sprinter's teams could control the peloton during the stage but it remains to be seen whether they will have the motivation after four stages which were custom made for them. The climb 10km away from the end could be a springboard for attacks but it's not overly difficult and so any attempts to go there should be brought back. We are finally in France though!

 

[OlavEH]

Reposting of Giro d'Italia without Dolomites

A couple of years ago, my first designed race was a version of the Giro without the Dolomites. Since I'm currently on vacation and with little to do due to bad weather, I've resigned this route, this time using Crocescalada to create better altitude profiles of the stages. The route is mostly identical to the previous one, with a couple of exceptions. I've made one small change on stage 7. This originally finished in Roccaraso. Now I've extended it to Pescocostanzo. And stage 16 is completely redesigned. Both versions starts in Cuneo, but the first version finished in Sestriere via Agnello, Izoard and Montgenevre. This version doesn't move outside Italy and finishes in Monviso via Pra Martino and the very steep Montoso climb.

A short summary is shown below and photos of the altitude profiles is given in the following posts. The route is characterized by several very long hilly and mountain stages, probably at least 3 stages well above 6 hours. Also, the mountain stages is distributed through the whole three weeks of the Giro, starting already on stage 2 with a very tough mountain stage with two ascents of Etna. The Giro starts in Sicily with the prologue and the two first stages. From there they move to the Italian mainland. Stage 3 to Vibo Valentia is probably another stage best suited for climbers and puncheurs, and that may also apply to stage 4 to Castrovillari and stage 5 to Potenza. Especially stage 5 could be a real spectacle with 8 categorized climbs, some of the very steep, and with to climbs close to the stage finish in Pontenza. Actuyally, there is very few flat kms in the last 80 km of that stage.

The Potenza stage is followed by an easy stage to Foggia before the infamous stage 7 to Pescocostanzo. 255 km long, 7 categorized climbs and 4000 meter of climbs, this will probably be a 7 hour stage and a real challenge for the riders. The last couple of climbs is normally and very selective, but with over 240 kms of riding, this could mean large gaps for tired riders in the last few kms. After stage 7, the riders will have a well-deserved rest day, while moving north to the region of Umbria. Stage 8 is a fairly easy stage that could end in a mass sprint. Stage 9 is the first ITT, 56 km long, and with a 5 km climb to the stage finish in Assisi.

Stage 10 is the next real challenge for the GC riders. Most of the stage takes place in the Marche region, climbing all three of the "monster climbs" of Marche, namely Catria, Petrano and a stage finish at Monte Nerone. The last climb to Nerone is steep and difficult, and could be a real carnage after over 220 km. One of 2 or 3 toughest stages in this Giro.

After the MTF to Monte Nerone, there is typical sprinters stage to Rimini followed by an typical breakaway stage to Firenze. Then on stage 13 and 14 it's again time for a couple of MTFs. First stage 13 to Abetone via San Pellegrino in Alpe. The main difficulty here is the very steep and difficult climb to San Pellegrino in Alpe, which has a 3 km long section of 12 % in the last third of the climb. The last and significantly easier climb to Abetone makes this a stage similar to Mortirolo-Aprica and Finestre-Sestirere. Stage 14 is again a long medium mountain stage with a tough finish to Madonna delle Guardia just outside Genova. With a length of over 220 kms and over 4000 height meters of climbing, this will again be a real test for the riders.

The last rest day is between stage 14 and 15, and the riders avoids a long transfer since stage 15 starts in Genova, where stage 14 finished. Stage 15 could either go to a mass sprint, but there is also a good chance that a breakway could fight for the stage finish. Stage 16 is another MTF, this time to Cima Coppi at Monviso, close to the French border. The 20 km, 7 % climb is probably one of the toughest climbs in this Giro, and is also preceeded by the very tough Montoso climb. But there is still more to come. Stage 17 is the last ITT, which takes place in Torino and climbing both Colle della Maddalena and Superega.

Stage 18 is another long, 220+ km mountain stage, but probably not as tough as the stages to Monte Nerone and Madonna della Guardia. The last categorized climb to Mottarone is followed by a tough descent to Stresa, which favors the top descenders of the GC contenders. Stage 19 is the last mountain stage and moves towards the northwestern corner of Italy, the Aosta region. The first third of the stage is flat before the last 130 km is more or less only climbing and descending with 4 tough climbs, all between 15 and 17 kms long and 6.5 - 8 % gradient. The last stage to Milano and the end of the Giro is flat and a "walk in the park" after the stages on the previous days.

Prologue: Agrigento - Agrigento, 9,8 km
Stage 1: Argigento - Syracuse, 214 km
Stage 2: Catania - Catania, 169 km
Stage 3: Reggio di Calabria - Vibo Valentia, 183 km
Stage 4: Catanzaro - Castrovillari, 222 km
Stage 5: Castrovillari - Potenza, 199 km
Stage 6: Potenza - Foggia, 200 km
Stage 7: Foggia - Pescocostanzo, 255 km
Stage 8: Terni - Perugia, 191 km
Stage 9: Perugia - Assisi, 56 km ITT
Stage 10: Foligno - Monte Nerone, 224 km
Stage 11: Gubbio - Rimini, 187 km
Stage 12: Rimini - Firenze, 173 km
Stage 13: Pistoia - Abetone, 165 km
Stage 14: La Spezia - Genova (Madonna delle Guardia), 228 km
Stage 15: Genova - Savona, 180 km
Stage 16: Cuneo - Monviso, 151 km
Stage 17: Torino - Torino, 37 km ITT
Stage 18: Torino - Stresa 225 km
Stage 19: Biella - Pila, 191 km
Stage 20: Aosta - Milano, 193 km

Total: 3653 km
Cima Coppi: Monviso, 2020 m

4 High MTF (Monte Nerone, Abetone, Monviso, Pila)
2 Medium MTF (Pescostanzo, Madonna della Guardia)
2 descent finishes (Catania from Etna, Stresa from Mottarone)
2 ITT + prologue
3 hilly stages
7 flat/mostly flat stages

 

[OlavEH]

Stage 1: Argigento - Syracuse, 214 km

Stage 2: Catania - Catania, 169 km

Stage 3: Reggio di Calabria - Vibo Valentia, 183 km

Stage 4: Catanzaro - Castrovillari, 222 km

[b Stage 5: Castrovillari - Potenza, 199 km][/b]

Stage 6: Potenza - Foggia, 200 km

Stage 7: Foggia - Pescocostanzo, 255 km

 

[OlavEH]

Stage 8: Terni - Perugia, 191 km

Stage 9: Perugia - Assisi, 56 km ITT

Stage 10: Foligno - Monte Nerone, 224 km

Stage 11: Gubbio - Rimini, 187 km

Stage 12: Rimini - Firenze, 173 km

Stage 13: Pistoia - Abetone, 165 km

Stage 14: La Spezia - Genova (Madonna delle Guardia), 228 km

 

[OlavEH]

Stage 15: Genova - Savona, 180 km

Stage 16: Cuneo - Monviso, 151 km

Stage 17: Torino - Torino, 37 km ITT

Stage 18: Torino - Stresa 225 km

Stage 19: Biella - Pila, 191 km

Stage 20: Aosta - Milano, 193 km

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Montoso, the Tze Core-Saint Panthaléon double, go through Pietransieri instead of Roccaraso between Rionero Sannitico and Pescocostanzo and you have my support to take over RCS yesterday.

Oh, and you neglected to include Fedaia (Fedaia!). For this reason alone, I declare my opposition to this "no Dolomites" idea, for sometimes there are necessities, damnit.

 

[railxmig]

Re:

Montoso, the Tze Core-Saint Panthaléon double, go through Pietransieri instead of Roccaraso between Rionero Sannitico and Pescocostanzo and you have my support to take over RCS yesterday.

Oh, and you neglected to include Fedaia (Fedaia!). For this reason alone, I declare my opposition to this "no Dolomites" idea, for sometimes there are necessities, damnit.

I will play a devil's advocate on this one. It's a very bad thing for a designer to limit himself to only couple of possibilities. There are tons of roads in Italy and Giro is very generous in road and finish placement usage which opens up tons of variants in contradiction to Tour de France. You really don't need Fedaia and Tze Core to create a really nice race but i guess that your post is to be ment as a character joke (a joke based on your or created by you character/image).

I have a question to you. Why is Tze Core so awesome? The hardest side i could find is 16km at roughly 7,5% which is very nice - a genuine HC climb, but i think it's way overrated. Fedaia at least has it's very tough final couple of kms while Madeleine, Tourmalet or Croix de Fer have the kms. This opininon will be most propably very controversial and questionable but the linking with other climbs is a bit dodgy. It looks nice with Col d'Arlaz or Col de Joux and maybe a descent finish in Verrès or somewhere in Val d'Ayas (wherever the space is) but combining it with Saint-Panthaleon... Sorry, but i sadly cannor see it. There's like 10km of flat between them and the climbs itself aren't that hard imo to really push the selection.

I could think of placing this combination on a last important stage but you can place everything on such stage and it can either work or not. It could be an improvement to Saint-Barthelemy used in Giro '15 but it's not really that harder of a climb and the stage in that Giro managed to get good gaps (mostly thanks to GC situation) in the end. I think that Tze Core is a quite nice climb but it's not a second coming of Jesus so sorry, but i don't get the hype. This is of course my own opinion that i decided to share, it's not a diss or anything like that.

 

[OlavEH]

Re:

Oh, and you neglected to include Fedaia (Fedaia!). For this reason alone, I declare my opposition to this "no Dolomites" idea, for sometimes there are necessities, damnit.

Fedaia will certainly be a part of my next version of the Giro. I've already created a stage including Fedaia. And I still haven't used neither Beigua, Amiata, Terminillo, Lanciano/Blockhaus, Prati di Tivo, Giau, Tre Cime Lavaredo, Pennes, Monte Giovo, Merano 2000, Zoncolan, Stelvio, Gavia, Mortirolo, Maniva, Croce Domini, Finestre, Colle San Carlo, Sampeyre, Fauniera and many other other climbs in any of my first two Giro versions, so there is definitely more to come!