Race Design Thread

[TromleTromle]

Great stage LS, a real 200+ killer - they are rare these days!

 

[TromleTromle]

Counterclockwise Vuelta II

2. 46,5 km Jerez-Cadiz - TTT Stage

Going into the slipstream of LS's Vuelta...
Stage description: In the very flattest part of the southwesten corner of Spain - we will try to send out our riders on a completely flat not, very technical, except for the exit from Jerez, but risky & windy TTT of 46 km. The big strong engines will really make a difference here and force the climbers to go all-out later in the vuelta.... ....huge time can be lost here!

Elevation Gain/Loss in m: 120/160
Sprints: None
Mountains/hills: 0 (0 categorzied)

Other considerations: From the sherry-capital of the worlds to oldest continuously inhabited city in Spain - lots of story and taste are in this one... The two towns has been used as stage/finish together only once for a 56 km TT in 1950!

1. stage 169,5 km Huelva-Sevilla: Flat
2. stage 46,5 km Jerez-Cadiz: TTT

 

[fauniera]

Great stage, great post Libertine. I'm currently working on my very first Vuelta, curious where you go from there.

TOUR DE FRANCE

(Tue) stage 16: Briançon - Allevard, 173 km

Well, this stage is obviously lame compared with Libertine's monster stage, but then it isn't supposed to be a real gc stage. Instead it is one of the best chances for stage hunters this Tour has to offer. Starting in Briançon, the peloton is soon climbing the often used Col du Lautaret.

After a long descent the second half of the stage takes place on the Balcons de Belledonne, overlooking the Isère valley, with the Chartreuse massiv on the other side of the valley dominating the views.

The rolling terrain on the plateau includes some small to medium sized climbs:
Col des Mouilles at km 144 (3,8 km at 6,6%)
Col du Lautaret (no typo, there are really two Lautarets in this stage; 2 km at 4%)
Col des Ayes (1 km at 4%)

The final climb is known as Col de Barioz, but apparently Col du Barrioz is the correct name. It is 5,6 km long and averages at 7%. It's a quite regular climb, with no steep parts.

only second halt (from Col des Ayes junction):

From the top 12 km are left to race, 7 km descent and 5 km flat (including alongside Lac du Flumet).

Briançon

Allevard

 

[fauniera]

TOUR DE FRANCE

(Wed) stage 17: Aix les Bains - Pontarlier, 181 km

This is a relatively easy stage into the Jura and the best chance for the sprinters before Paris. After a flat start we have a 50 km long drag up the valley Combe de Mijoux. The gradients are are very low though, most sprinters should have no big trouble here. After km 121 the climb to Lac de Bellefontaine begins.

The final 50 km are flat or gently downhill. From km 166 to 173 the peloton will ride along the shore of Lac de Saint Point.

The run in is uncomplicated, i expect a bunch sprint on Faubourg St Etienne.

Aix les Bains

Pontarlier

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The direction is similar to you, although I'm a week back in the race compared to you - transitional stage coming up.

Stage 10: Circuito de Almería - Murcia (Santuário de la Fuensanta), 215km

GPM:
Collado Bermejo (cat.1) 21,3km @ 4,8%
Alto de la Cresta del Gallo (cat.3) 5,0km @ 6,2%

Off the back of the two big mountain stages at the weekend, with the steepest finish of the race (Hazallanas) and the toughest stage of the race (Cálar Alto), there's just the one remaining obstacle for the riders before they can take a well-earned rest day. As a result, it's quite likely that this one will be disputed among the break - however not before there are some potential challenges that riders who gave their all yesterday and are struggling may find cost them crucial seconds.

Located in the hot and dry Desierto de Tabernas, not far from the town of Tabernas itself, and in the plateau to the south of the Sierra de los Filabres in which the decisive moments of yesterday's queen stage were fought, the Circuito de Almería is a motor racing facility opened in 2000 and is a tricky 4km loop which is generally used primarily for motorbike racing. Its southerly location and accessibility from much of the rest of Europe makes it a favoured testing location for motorbike racing teams, for similar reasons to that which have made the Sierra Nevada and Mallorca favoured training locations for cyclists in the off- and early-season when inclement weather makes many traditional haunts in northern and central Europe unreliable. The semi-desert terrain in the Desierto de Tabernas has also made this a favoured film location, particularly for the traditional "spaghetti westerns" where the similarity of the protected scenery to the American west before the coming of infrastructure harmed much of the pristine wilderness' suitability for the purpose led to a surge in films located in the region; some of these studios have been converted into Wild West theme parks to preserve some of that legacy.

As a result, the first hour of the race could be frenetic as riders, exhausted from mountain exploits, are suddenly required to go hard from the gun as this is one of the more intriguing challenges of the race; after the first few kilometres the shelter provided by the Sierra de los Filabres and the Sierra de Alhamilla disappears, and the riders will be in humid conditions, but also no longer protected from the Mediterranean winds, which could provide an unwelcome challenge for many of the riders as they head northeast out of Andalucía and into Murcia.

This part of the stage is flat and features a couple of locations previously used in Vueltas of mine, such as Cuevas del Almanzora, with its preserved cave dwellings overlooking the modern town, which was a stage finish for the first stage on the Iberian peninsula in the Vuelta I designed starting in Melilla, based on the 1997 national championships circuit won by José María Jiménez. For the most part though, we're not right on the coast, and some rolling hillside does offer the riders some protection, so unless the wind is particularly strong to give us echelon carnage that opens up large gaps like in the Presidential Tour of Turkey this year when on consecutive stages Caja Rural and Lotto-Soudal annihilated the field in the crosswinds, this is likely to come to naught in the long run as the riders head across the plains of inland Murcia towards the challenges of the day.

The feedzone comes in the city of Lorca, which has some cycling history. Of course, it has hosted numerous stages of the Vuelta a Murcia, but since the compression of that race into a one-day event, the small, punchy, slightly unusual (there's a tunnel with under 100m to go) climb up to the Castillo de Lorca, built by the Moors all the way back in the 13th Century, has been the site of the finish three times, being first introduced in 2013 (won by Dani Navarro), then being repeated in 2014 (won by Alejandro Valverde, the Comunidad de Murcia's most famous cyclist) and 2015 (won by Rein Taaramäe). However, in 2016 the finish of the race moved back to Murcia itself, so it remains to be seen when we will next see that little punchy finish next. The city was last seen in the Vuelta in 2010, with a transitional flat stage won by Tyler Farrar as the race moved from Andalucía toward the north following the hilly stages to Málaga and Valdepeñas de Jaén. It is also the birthplace of 70s pro Juan Zurano, winner of several stages in small Iberian races as well as the prestigious Bilbao stage of the 1973 Vuelta, and Manuel Pascual, respected domestique of the 90s for veterans Eduardo Chozas, Asiat Saitov and José Luís Laguía in the Artiach squad until its demise in 1995.

Away from its cycling history, however, Lorca is also a very famous city, having been a former Roman city subsequently used as a frontier town between Christian and Muslim Spain during the era following Al-Andalus and the reconquista, from which the Christian Kingdom of Murcia unleashed raids on the Muslim Kingdom of Granada.

Following the feedzone, another 20km or so of flat takes us into Totana, the town at the southern edge of the Sierra de Espuña, and from which we take on our first - and most significant - climb of the day, the cat.1 grind up to the Collado Bermejo. This climb has long been the keynote ascent of the Vuelta a Murcia, with the side of the climb depending on where the finish is located. When the race was finishing in Lorca, the race climbed the opposite side, but since the restoration of the finish in Murcia itself, the riders have climbed the same side I use here, which is slightly more gradual, but only really because the flat between the first and second "steps" of the climb is slightly longer on this side. The climb has strangely never been climbed from this side in the Vuelta - and only once from the opposite side (in 2009, early in a second week transitional stage where it was unable to have any real lasting impact other than to help David Moncoutié pad his lead in the mountains competition, and eventually the break was reeled in and Tyler Farrar won in Caravaca de la Cruz some 150km after the summit); although in fairness I have used the opposite side of the climb in one of my Vueltas, having a mountaintop finish at the Morrón de Espuña after first climbing to Collado Bermejo then doing the climb all the way to the dead end summit of the climb.

This is a long and, as you can see, mostly quite gradual climb that steepens as it goes, with the final 7km at 7,5%, a bit like Navacerrada north in that respect, although this is a longer period of sustained climbing. The last time we saw this side of the climb in a decisive manner was in fact quite interesting, however - in the 2012 edition of the Vuelta a Murcia, the last stage race version of the event to date, this stage saw the recently emerged Jonathan Tiernan-Locke trying to capitalize on his lightning-in-a-bottle form with promising Movistar neo-pro Nairo Quintana chasing with him, before the Colombian was able to get away from the Briton to take the stage and the lead, which he defended in the TT to win the GC. Here I don't expect it to be especially decisive, cresting just inside 70km to go, but certainly the riders who really suffered yesterday are likely not to enjoy this and it could well have a damaging effect on the breakaway, who I think will duke out the stage win here - it could be a good chance for stagehunters to rid the break of some competition or to test out how their breakmates are feeling that day. The descent is also extremely technical, so you could well see some of the less adept riders drop back in the bunch for safety on the descent, which will leave them vulnerable to any splits in the péloton from crashes, incidents, echelons or just if the pace is upped by teams at the front once they arrive at the foot of the descent in Alhama de Murcia.

Although the stage is labelled as Murcia being the stage town, we don't actually head into the city itself, instead the next 30-35km of flat see the riders along an exposed area between the Sierra de Espuña and the Sierra de Carrascoy as we head for the suburban sprawl of the city and towards the last categorized climb of the day. We are all familiar with Cresta del Gallo now; it was first introduced to the Vuelta in 1979, when the race was frantically searching for new climbs to bring prestige following the decision that the race could no longer enter the Basque Country, meaning traditional and historic climbs like Orduña, Urkiola, Jaizkibel and Herrera were now off-limits (interestingly, the same race saw the introduction of Peña Cabarga, which was then forgotten about for decades too). Juan Argudo won the stage over the climb and into Murcia, and it was successful enough to be repeated in 1981, when Basque Imanol Murga took the victory. However, with the onset of the skiing industry in the 1970s in Spain, and the bigger success of the Sierra Nevada and Catalan climbs followed by the Asturian discoveries shortly afterward, transitional stages around Murcia fell from favour until 2001, when Carlos Sastre was first over the climb only for his escape to be unsuccessful; a small group swallowed up Don Limpio and Czech Tomáš Konečný won the stage.

The ascent has become well known in recent years, however; a transitional stage in 2009 was the first of several won by breaks allowed to go the distance by Caisse d'Epargne to protect Valverde's lead, picked up on Xorret del Catí the previous day; Linus Gerdemann was the first over the climb (ascended from its eastern face which we descend here) and comfortably on his way to the stage, but a mechanical derailed his bid for the victory, opening up the opportunity for a quartet of Alexandre Vinokourov (in his final contribution of interest in his first comeback race for Astana, having entered l'Ain with a national team), Ryder Hesjedal, Jakob Fuglsang and eventual stage winner Simon Gerrans (back in his old, interesting stagehunter phase) to sprint for the win. As the Vuelta was in its "if it works, copy it" phase, the stage was brought back in 2010, this time climbing from the opposite side. This time, it still being in week 1 and with no substantial mountains yet scaled, the GC was much tighter, and while there were some attempts to make a difference on the climb, eventually a group trimmed to 70 fought out the win, and Thor Hushovd outsprinted Daniele Bennati and Grega Bole for the win.

Since then, the climb went unused by La Vuelta until 2015's edition, when they scaled it twice. It was a controversial stage, which you can rewatch here. Although the controversy had little to do with the actual climb or the victory for Jasper Stuyven, who outsprinted Pello Bilbao, Kévin Reza and Giovanni Visconti from a group of 50 after the late attack from Zé Gonçalves was pulled back at the last minute; rather it was that after the péloton had split, the front group's strongest sprinting member, Peter Sagan, was isolated and at one point swinging across the road he was struck by an inattentive moto. Understandably angered, the soon-to-be World Champion flew into a fit of anger about the dangerous moto, which people mostly accepted, then threw punches and spat at the medical car, which some did and some didn't accept, in that his rage was understandable but launching it at those who were not only not responsible but were trying to help him was counterproductive at best, and childish and stupid at worst. The climb has also been used more recently, in the Vuelta a Murcia on its 2016 route, which bears more than a passing resemblance to this stage. That stage aped the typical Vuelta stage with Cresta del Gallo and a finish in the city, however, which I do not. It is, however, our most recent guide to racing on the climb, and so you can see the highlights here - the different race situation created by the mixed field and the one-day nature of the race led to a very selective front group of seven that contested the win, with Philippe Gilbert eventually besting local hero Alejandro Valverde in the sprint, with Ilnur Zakarin completing the podium, squeezing out another Murcian, Luís León Sánchez (who is from Cieza, in the north of the province).

The actual climb we are using is this side of it, as far as where is marked "alto", as we then descend the San José de la Vega side that was climbed in 2009, and the ascent crests with just 9km remaining, meaning it ought to be more decisive than in those stages we've seen in recent years where it is more like 15 from the line, thus giving the bunch behind more chance of catching back on. The main reason for this, however, is that this is not a straightforward flat finish, instead we loop back to the start of the climb and do the first 1400m again, leading to a finish at the Santuário de la Fuensanta, which you can see marked on that profile. The climb to the sanctuary averages 6,0% (there's a bit of false flat not shown on that profile beforehand) but with the last 600m at 8% there is the opportunity for this to be decisive and see seconds won and lost even if Cresta del Gallo can't create them. And also, with the tired legs that the heads of state should have after two tough mountain stages in a row, and with a rest day to come tomorrow, and with Cresta del Gallo starting less than 15km from the line, there's the potential that this could be a real banana skin for the GC men - even if I expect they'll be arriving ten minutes or more behind the breakaway which will likely fall apart on Cresta del Gallo in the hunt for the stage win; the climb is too close to the line for a 2010 or 2015 situation to develop and even if we get a small group like in 2009 they still have everything to fight for in the final climb up to the Santuário de la Fuensanta.

The reason I can get away with not finishing in the city is that the rest day is held there, so here we have an archetypal Valverde finish perfectly placed for Valverde himself, on home roads. Except that he'll be very disappointed if he's in the breakaway here, of course...

 

[fauniera]

TOUR DE FRANCE

(Thu) stage 18: Pontarlier - Solothurn, 219 km

Welcome to the Jura monster stage. The third week has been easy so far, now you know why. After 14 km we enter Switzerland, where we will stay for the rest of the stage. The first climb is the gentle Col des Etroits.

Next is Mont Aubert, a solid climb.

After 95 km the peloton begins the climb of the mighty Chasseral (15 km at 7%). It is a two stepped climb. Col du Chasseral starts with 3 km at 9,5%, then eases off before finishing with 6,4 km at 9,4%.

(only to the Col)

This is directly followed by Col du Mont Crosin, which looks tiny in comparison but is actually a decent climb (5,2 km at 7,8%).

The next 30 km are easy, downhill or flat, which probably means that not too much will happen on Chasseral. Except legs getting more and more tired of course. The finale consists of a Triptychon of Jura climbs: Grenchenberg, Weissenstein and Balmberg.

Grenchenberg from the north is 9,1 km at 7,6%. That wouldn't be too bad, but the first 5 km average 10,7%, including a kilometer at 12,6%.

(the easy upper part)

After 12 flat km the famous southern side of Weissenstein has to be tackled. That's 5,5 km at 12%. This includes a stretch of 700 meters at 16,3% in the first half of the climb, and a full kilometer at 15,5% near the top.

The descent is also pretty steep at 11%, which is followed by 5 flat km.

Only one climb to go, and it's a short climb with only 2,3 km, so how bad can it be? Well, the 2,3 km of Balmberg average at 16,3%. The maximum gradient is said to be close to 30% and if you look at the pictures, that seems plausible.

The descent is not quite as steep and also on a bigger road.

After the descent there are 8 km left to the finish in Solothurn. Needless to say, i expect this to be a massacre.

 

[TromleTromle]

We might have a little overlap in a few stages - but great utilization of the terrain by you!
@fauneira - You sure those murtios are Swiss ? oh my oh my...

Counterclockwise Vuelta II

3. 192 km Vejar De La Frontera-Ronda - Medium Mountains Stage

Stage description: Javier Guillén might feel like staying in bed today, stage 3 and no muritos so far... Instead the first 105 km takes the riders thourgh the lowlying rolling Los Alcornocales Natural Park towards the sprint of today which follows the inland road in parallel to Algeciras-Estepona route. From here the terrain gets hilly - first de Gaucin climb, 3 km of ~4 % followed by 8 km og 6,5-7% - the first real test of the Vuelta. A clear 2nd category climb. The next climbs come back-to-back to entice to attack, first the the hard climb towards El Colmenar, which ramp up to 8-9% in the final 2 km and then an uncategorized rolling false flat climb to the town of Cortes de la Frontera. Then the soft Alto de Benaojan - before a softer uncetagorized climb 12 km from the finish line. Here the riders will enter Ronda, go a circle aorund and finally it's bridge over the canyon for a tricky sprint with lots of corners. A riders except for the heaviest sprinters have a chance - while we also have an open stage with lots of traps for GC rides in the heat of Al-Andalus.

Elevation Gain/Loss in m: 3223/2664
Mountains/hills: 5 (3 categorzied)

Alto de Gaucin (southwest). 120,2 km 2. KAT 11,2 km - 5,3%
El Colmenar (southeast). 135,1 km 2. KAT 6,1 km - 7,1%
Cortes de la Frontera (southwest). 144,4 km NO. KAT 3,5 km - 4,9%
Alto de Benaoján (south). 162,1 km 3. KAT 6,7 km - 4,5%
unnamed (west). 180,1 km NO. KAT 6,1 km - 3,6%

Other considerations: Vejer is a classic Andalusian Pueblo Blanco of 12.000 with moorish style architecture while our finish Ronda with it's famous Puente Nuevo towering 120 m above the canyon floor on the western outskirts of town will be passed for only the second time in Vuelta history as a finish.

1. stage 169,5 km Huelva-Sevilla: Flat
2. stage 46,5 km Jerez-Cadiz: TTT
3. stage 192,1 km Vejar de la Frontera-Ronda: Medium Mountains

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Stage 11: Murcia - Albacete, 183km

After the rest day, a flat stage takes us inland and back onto the Meseta, in a stage very similar to a flat stage in a previous Vuelta of mine (although that took a slightly more circuitous route onto the plateau via a small climb, and didn't have as long a loop on that plateau at the end of the stage). That was the stage after the Collado Bermejo/Sierra de Espuña stage in fact, so some similarities in the route, though that was in the middle of week 1, whereas here we're on the Wednesday of week 2.

After a nice rest day, the riders are ready to set off from where they finished last, in the seventh largest city in the country, Murcia, capital of its own autonomous community. It has a long and storied history in the Vuelta a España, as it was one of the hosts of the very first Vuelta, back in 1935, when Salvador Cardona, the first Spaniard to win a stage of the Tour de France (a 360km multi-mountain odyssey from Bayonne to Luchon in 1929, thus beginning a tradition lasting some sixty years of light Spanish riders focusing all of their energies on being strongest in the mountain stages), took a 260km stage from Valencia into the city. Délio Rodríguez won the subsequent stages in 1941 and 1942, his brother Emilio took the stage into the city in 1947, as well as being a key part in the GC wins of Bernardo Ruíz and António Suárez. Nowadays it's best known, of course, as the hometown of one of cycling's most successful and divisive figures of the modern era, a man who goes by many names - El Imbatido, Bala Verde, Don Alejandro, Piti, Ally Vally, call him what you like, nobody can doubt that Alejandro Valverde is one of the most prominent riders of the last 15 years, and is still going strong now at 36.

Not that this is likely to be a stage for the Don, though. It's more likely, at least in theory, to be one for another Murciano, this time from the city of Cieza, which we pass through around 45km into the stage. This is another divisive figure in modern cycling, but for a different reason. While Valverde's dubious morals regarding the clinical side of the sport, frustrating race tactics and high prominence due to the range of terrains on which he can contend have rendered him a popular pantomime villain, José Joaquín Rojas didn't need the same success level to court controversy (which is good, as he is the king of the 4th place); rather, he gained notoriety after telling Pedalier Pro that the person he most admired was Franco. He's far from the only pro from the city, though - after 1950s pro Ángel Guardiola retired he set up a cycling school in the city which has clearly reaped rewards as it has produced a number of professionals. Alongside JJ Rojas, of course, is obviously his brother Mariano, who tragically was killed after being struck by a car while training shortly after his 23rd birthday, but also Luís León Sánchez calls the city his home, as does former national champion Ignacio García, former Olympic cyclist Miguel Fernández Fernández, former Vuelta stage winner José Cayetano Juliá.

Over the course of the next 70km, however, we climb some 700m further above sea level; of course, with pretty much no serious ramps this isn't going to be an attack feast or anything, and it's only averaging a paltry 1%, so it's still a flat stage, but it's somewhat unconventional and may be felt as the stage goes on, as we're ascending from sea level onto the plateau as we head for another historic Vuelta city, Albacete. On the way we head through Hellín as we pass from Murcia into Castilla-La Mancha once more, a city which last hosted the Vuelta in 2007, when Ale-Jet won a sprint, and continue to climb towards our first intermediate sprint in Pozohondo. Shortly afterwards, we join part of the lengthy circuit that made up the 2010 Spanish national championships course in Albacete; a flat route but for a short punchy rise into the hilltop fortified town of Chinchilla de Monte Aragón; however this is too short to categorize as a mountain I feel, so instead because I'm a horrible person, I've placed the intermediate sprint there, so that if the break has been brought back, the GC men can consider nicking a second or two here.

Although said sprint comes 31km from the line, so you would normally consider this very early to bring back the break in a typical sprint stage, it's not quite as fanciful as you might imagine, because Albacete has a very notorious reputation in the history of the Vuelta; it has hosted stages on no fewer than 42 occasions, and developed a tradition in the race's formative years for providing riders with trial by crosswind - it was introduced to the race in 1942 when Julián Berrendero surprised everybody with an attack on the first flat stage, thought not to favour him, taking the stage win and becoming the first man to go coast to coast with the leader's jersey. A copy of this stage was the first of Délio Rodríguez' record breaking number of stage wins in 1947, which stood for 30 years until Freddy Maertens set his absurd record of 13. Other winners in the city include Miguel Poblet, José Pérez Francés, Sean Kelly, Uwe Raab, Djamolidine Abdoujaparov, Laurent Jalabert, Óscar Freire and Alessandro Petacchi. For many years, a stage to Albacete was something to be feared by the Spanish péloton with its focus on featherweight grimpeurs and its leaders mainly laying low until the race arrived in the mountains; for many years the Spanish teams suffered as the riders from northern Europe taught them lesson upon lesson in waaijer racing, a lesson that the national péloton struggled to learn, since the majority of the national calendar was based in mountainous regions like País Vasco, Navarra, Cantabria, Asturias, Catalunya and Burgos, and with the top climbers from Spanish teams often only going abroad for races in similar terrain like the Giro and the Tour de Suisse in those days, they simply didn't get enough experience racing in the crosswinds to be able to deal with the specialists when it blew across these vast, exposed flatlands.

Since the Vuelta moved to September, the weather has been less volatile and that has meant that the stages have been less selective, although there is still the underlying threat as, as soon as the wind blows in this region, it will have an impact; in 2003, when Ale-Jet won, the group contesting the victory was under 30, and a further group of 60 was a minute down. The rest lost over ten minutes. In 2001 it was trimmed to 39, and in 2000 42 riders contested the final sprint. The most recent trip to Albacete came in the 2014 Vuelta, in a typically pan-flat stage which Nacer Bouhanni won in the sprint, but not before the group had been trimmed to just 50. So the biggest guns in the race are going to have to be vigilant, for this is not going to be easy to stay at the front here. The city was also the venue for the 2010 national championships, in which Caisse d'Epargne forced a split in the crosswinds where they had five riders present, then José Iván Gutiérrez was able to escape and take the win solo with the group of 12 behind being anchored by his teammates. So there's possibilities here.

So yes, it's a pure flat stage, but it's a flat stage that could be surprisingly important. In 2003, Valverde lost over a minute of his 2'25 deficit in the wind in Albacete, along with defending champion THE AITORMINATOR© and Unai Osa (whose time loss was the difference between 6th and 9th on GC); in 2001, David Plaza, Abraham Olano, Unai Osa (again) and Santiago Blanco were among those who lost 1'17, while in 2000 Heras, Escartín and Sastre lost a minute, Óscar Sevilla lost 3, Aitor Osa 4 and his brother Unai (are you sensing a pattern here) over 5. So no chance for riders to take it easy, because after the rest day the big climbers should be at the top of the leaderboard, but they have to be attentive because it's not the harmless sprint stage they might want it to be...

 

[TromleTromle]

Counterclockwise Vuelta II

4. 150,8 km Ronda-Antequera - Flat Stage

Stage description: The Guillén-factor is rising, stage 4 and no muritos so far... ...my contract might not be up for renewal... A classic "flat" stage of the Vuelta - which often starts with a shallow climb, this time the soft northern face of the Madrono climb - mostly a false flat of 3% with a small ramp in the beginning of 6% - The long 5% descent takes the riders down to the coast which the follow to Malaga - a breakaway have all chances to have formed by now. There will not be time to enjoy the sea, as we turn inland again onto the Ojen climb - solid 5% over 11 km - with first half hardest around 6% - the top is reached with 80 km to go... the nexst 20 km is a shallow descent with following flat until we reach the town of Alora. As with the tricky run-in from the day before, this one is not easy, but not as hard a the Ronda stage - as we will trek north through the Abdalajis valley (a poor's man Lauturet if you want) with 2% average over the next 35 km. sometimes even 4-5% and a few ramp of 8-9%. A scaled down version of the Quesara climb in 2015. This is breakaway/attack terrain - but also still a good opportunity for the fast guys with a swift dropping 5 km run-in to the finish line.

Elevation Gain/Loss in m: 2154/2378
Mountains/hills: 3 (2 categorzied)

Puerto del Madroño (north). 19,2 km 3. KAT 14,2 km - 3,1% (last 7 km of profile discounted in stats)
Puerto del Ojen (south). 67,6 km 2. KAT 11,0 km - 4,9%
Valle de Abdalajís (south). 145,6 km NO. KAT 32,0 km - 1,8% (last 5 km of profile discounted in stats)

Other considerations: Known as "the heart of Andalusia" because of its central location among Málaga, Granada, Córdoba, and Seville - and a hotbed for Andulusian regionalism - the finish has never been used before other than as departure town

1. stage 169,5 km Huelva-Sevilla: Flat
2. stage 46,5 km Jerez-Cadiz: TTT
3. stage 192,1 km Vejar de la Frontera-Ronda: Medium Mountains

 

[TromleTromle]

Counterclockwise Vuelta II

5. 158,5 km Antequera-Motril - Flat Stage

Stage description: The Guillén-factor has reached boiling point - a kingdom for my head. Today's another flat finish. A little less than 160 km, that starts with a climb straight out of Antequera - the first half is quite soft, and even flat, but the last 4 is between 6-8% with several ramps of 10% - just before the road turns towards the Torcal de Antequera, we turn further south instead. The Alto de Zambra (here split in two climbs ) has 5 km strech with 5,5% in average and several 8% ramps - nothing serious, but enough for a solid breakaway to form. From the top there is 25 km rolling downhill terrain until the reach Malaga and sprint. From here they will follow the coat for a 40 km of sealevel riding - before 20 km of low hills with some sharp descents until it gets more even towards the finish. The finish itself rises with a little less that 2% for last 5 km - but this should be a sprinters victory again today.

Elevation Gain/Loss in m: 2122/2575
Mountains/hills: 3 (2 categorzied)

El Torcal de Antequera (north). 11,9 km 2. KAT 6,4 km - 5,9% (last 3 km of profile discounted in stats)
unnamed (west). 35,6 km NO. KAT 3,5 km - 4,7% (see below)
Alto de Zambra (north). 145,6 km 3. KAT 6,9 km - 4,3% (first 5 km of profile discounted in stats as the unnamed climb)

Other considerations: Motril - a town of 60.000 - has never been visited by the Vuelta before - as you will see in stage 6, it is a bit weird given the considerations for a big mountain stage you can do in the area!

1. stage 169,5 km Huelva-Sevilla: Flat
2. stage 46,5 km Jerez-Cadiz: TTT
3. stage 192,1 km Vejar de la Frontera-Ronda: Medium Mountains
4. stage 150,8 km Ronda-Antequera: Flat

 

[Libertine Seguros]

While Tromle may be angering Javier Guillén with a lack of Muritos, I am throwing Unipublic a bone.

Stage 12: Albacete - Cuenca, 204km

GPM:
Alto de la Ciudad Encantada (cat.2) 9,9km @ 4,2%
Cuenca-Alto del Castillo (cat.3) 1,8km @ 8,1%

The two cities of Albacete and Cuenca have each featured a few times in my Vuelta routes, in fact in my sixth Vuelta there was a stage between the two, although it was a stage that better suited the sprinters than the stage I present here, which is a typical Vuelta one-climb hilly stage like we often see into Córdoba or Castellón de la Plana, with a somewhat drawn out single late climb to thin the pack out and create uncertainty. Only here we have a classic favourite of Javier Guillén, the small uphill finish. In the real Vuelta there have frequently been stages between the two, most recently in the opposite direction to my stage, in this stage from 2003 which was won by Alessandro Petacchi; the last stage in the same direction as this between the two cities in real life was the 2001 stage which has remained in the memory not for the action but for Filippo Simeoni's memorable celebration.

In yesterday's blurb I discussed the Vuelta history of Albacete, so this doesn't require repetition. The historic city is by some way the largest urban centre in this part of Castilla-La Mancha, and therefore I haven't deigned to give the riders any transfer; they can start precisely where they left off. The first part of the stage is much like the last part of yesterday's as a result, and so the first hour could be quite frantic as riders try to avoid splits in the péloton, and the need for the bunch to race hard in the event of wind could make the battle to force the break of the day difficult. Unlike the routes into Albacete from the south and west there's less cycling history around here, although around 25km in to the stage we pass through Madrigueras, the hometown of promising young Spanish all-rounder Héctor Carretero, promoted from Lizarte to the Movistar WT team for 2017. As we head northwards we pass from the Provincia de Albacete into the Provincia de Cuenca between the towns of Tarazona de la Mancha and Quintanar del Rey, an area with one of the best-known varieties of the common mixture dish Migas Manchegas.

In fact, although we pass through a few small towns, there's little of major interest for the riders as they head through the scorched earth of La Mancha, until approaching the halfway point when the terrain gets a lot more undulating and puts a bit of stress on to legs that may have got into a comfortable rhythm once the riders are away from the vagaries of the winds. However, it is still nonetheless the case that the next real challenge for the riders will come when they contest the second intermediate sprint, as they pass through Cuenca, but not through the finish line. Instead we pass through the finishing line that, in the Vuelta's most recent trips to Cuenca, came in fact after the descent from the final climb we are utilizing, to the city's castle, overlooking it from a hill. The 2006 stage saw Samuel Sánchez hold off a group following a characteristic move on the descent from the small climb, while Thor Hushovd won a stage resembling mine in character until this point in 2005. I however have appended another 60km to the riders' day, so while they cross a nice flat sprint line here, there's much riding to do, including a tougher climb than has been included in any of those prior stages to Cuenca.

The route away from Cuenca is scenic, as we wind our way through a scenic gorge along the river Júcar, which carves its route through the foothills of the Serranía de Cuenca. This eventually leads to an interesting climb that crests 30km from the finish and sits on a plateau overlooking the region, going by the rather evocative name "Alto de la Ciudad Encantada", or "height of the enchanted city". Ciudad Encantada is a renowned nature reserve in the Cuenca region, which is well known for its dramatically sculpted limestone and chalk rock formations and is the jewel in the crown of the Serranía de Cuenca natural park.

The climb itself is two-stepped but unthreatening with its steepest kilometre at 6,7% in the first half of the climb, consisting of around 4km at 5,5% before a kilometre of flat and then another 4km at a little under 5% before a rolling phase across the top of the plateau leading into the "enchanted city" itself. It's not going to destroy the field but at the same time it may get rid of some less durable puncheur-types as though it's not especially steep it is long enough to allow a hard pace to get rid of some of those for whom Amstel Gold is within their remit but Liège-Bastogne-Liège is not, shall we say. The descent is a more gradual and inconsistent affair that takes us back close to Cuenca where we retrace a few steps from earlier, heading onto the west bank of the Júcar before entering the city for the final ramp up to the finishing line at the castle.

Although the region was settled in Roman times, Cuenca was originally built during the years of Muslim rule, as the castle of "Kunka" owing to its strategic location at the confluence of two rivers and with the high gorges nearby. The remarkable hilltop architecture and a succession of dramatic churches have made it one of Spain's hidden gems, with the former perhaps best encapsulated by the spectacular casas colgadas, or "hanging houses", which make use of the limited space available on the rocky outcrop by building literally right to the edge of the surface, with balconies 'hanging' over the precipice.

Cuenca was first introduced to the Vuelta in 1955, in an intermediate stage in from the coast at Valencia that enabled Jean Dotto to take the leader's jersey which he kept until the end. Antonio Uliana won the stage that day. An altogether more famous act came the first time the castle hosted the finish, in 1957 when a stage won by famous outsider Tour winner Roger Walkowiak enabled Federico Bahamontes to take the race lead, in the midst of his grand battles with his rival Jesús Loroño, the Basque getting the better of the Eagle in the long run however. In 1973 José Pesarrodona used the same finish to take the opportunity to nab a few days in yellow before the inexorable, irresistible charge of Merckx took the race once and for all, albeit thanks in no small part to a large number of very generous sprint bonuses that had been implemented to help sweeten the deal when searching for the Cannibal's signature to participate. After quite regular interest from the city in the 1950s and 1960s, however, the onset of the coastal tourist industry meant that the earlier Vuelta stages tended to stay close to the coast in the 70s and Cuenca fell out of regular Vuelta usage and became very much an occasional host until the resurgence of interest in the early 2000s, hosting the race four times in six years. However, since 2006 the city has gone without its national Tour.

In fact, the sport of cycling has stayed away from Cuenca for nine years; the last time the sport paid the city any mind was 2007, when the national championships were held around the city, with the road race finishing on the same little climb up to the castle that I use as my finish. I in fact used this finish as the first uphill finish of my very first Vuelta on this thread, albeit one that in retrospect could have done with a lot of improving. My run-in to the line is exactly the same as in those national championships, which you can see here and view the legend of Murito before that legend had truly taken hold. It's a wonderfully scenic finish with some cobbles, some twisty city streets, coming through the castle square, and it looks glorious. It's also not all that easy either - it amounts to the first 1,8km of this profile (as far as the sign for parking). Though it looks tiny on the profile and the Vuelta's inconsistent categorization can be very stingy at times, I do feel this is categorization-worthy as it is the finish, and also considering that the climb when used in 2005 and 2006 was categorized although it was not the finish, it would seem odd not to give points at the line.

Again there will only likely be a few seconds separating the top names here, but there are seconds to be had.

 

[Tonton]

Spectacular pictures LS. Great thread as always, the best on CN by far. No trolling, tons of knowledge to absorb. Waiting for fauniera to finish what is shaping up to be a great TdF design. My TdF #3 is coming BTW. I have a Vuelta project that I can't quite put it together. More to come...

 

[TromleTromle]

Counterclockwise Vuelta II

6. 129,8 km Motril-Puerto de la Ragua - Mountain Stage

Stage description: Third short stage in a row - but this time there is some proper beasts in it, and we will have a Puerto de la Ragua MTF. The point of going soft earlier in the race is to ensure more alpine style mountain stages later on and this is the first of the two huge queens stages before restday 1.
Motril serves as an excellent entry point for though coastal passes south of Sierra Nevada for either standalone stages or to go either side around to Granada or Guadix.

The heat will be tough today - as they will softpedal the 20 km east from Motril. From here we will tackle one of the two ferocious sides of Haza del Lino - the southwestern one. It start with 6 km of 2-3 %, and here riders will already know something is wrong, as the overall stats are 22km with almost 6% in average. After 5,5 km, a steep 10% ramp occurs - and this lead into 7km with no less 9,4% in average and countless 11-12-13% ramps. Pure terror to break the legs on the unprepared ones. After follows a 1 km of soft descent into Rubite the last 7,2 km averages 6,3% to the top. This is category ESPECIAL. The descent will take 20 km down the softer eastern face of Haza del Lino - alternating between 5 & 7& in gradient woith a flatter piece in the middle.

Straight from the end o fthe descent they turn towards the Cat. 1 climb Alto de Venta del Tarugo (ESP in the profile is a mistake). A steady and very solid climb - toughest the first two-third, where the gradiant stays at 7% and reaches even 8,5% on the hardest longer stretch. The final third to the top is milder, around 5% with a few 8% ramps. From the top there is a strach of false flat, descending gently 1-3% before a 6 km more real descent to the town of Cadiar (Cadal i the profile), where there is a small contra-hill, 3km with 3,0% in average, but our sprint is here - with bonus upo for GC grabs. From here the downhill ride continues until we hit the valley floor before Cherin.

Here the final starts - Puerto de la Ragua. The climb is situated in the heart of the Sierra Nevada National Park and is one of only a few paved roads that go inside the park's boundaries. From the south it is 25,1 km with 6,0% in average. The first 4 km from Cherin are 4-5%, slowing building-up towards the steepest kms of the climbs 2 km of 8%. From here it is long and relentless 6-7% the rest of the away - the remaining 19 km, but with slight respites two-thrid of the way up. The final km is soft, 2% but takes over the 2000m mark.

The total heightgain is around 4400m - brutal - but especially the first climbs steep intro will make many riders fear the timelimit today, as it is the first real climbing day.
Ragua is a great pass, a real alpine grinder, but especially from the south difficult to link without a flat in between. Padailla is close by, but then again it is also a pass - so either the finish must be there or on the decent.

Elevation Gain/Loss in m: 4350/2324
Mountains/hills: 3 (3 categorzied)

Haza del Lino (southwest). 42,5 km ESP. KAT 22,0 km - 5,8%
Alto de Venta del Tarugo (south). 77,5 km 1. KAT 15,9 km - 6,0%
Puerto de la Ragua (south). 129,4 km ESP. KAT 25,1 km - 6,0%

Other considerations: Ragua was last climbed in 2009 - with who else than Moncutie first - in a Berja-Sierra Nevada stage

1. stage 169,5 km Huelva-Sevilla: Flat
2. stage 46,5 km Jerez-Cadiz: TTT
3. stage 192,1 km Vejar de la Frontera-Ronda: Medium Mountains
4. stage 150,8 km Ronda-Antequera: Flat
5. stage 158,5 km Antequera-Motril: Flat

 

[Forever The Best]

I have a Vuelta that is almost finished but I haven't decided about stage 15 yet.
It either has Soulor-Aubisque-Ahusquy-Arnostegi-Errozate with a finish in Les Chalets d'Irati or Ahusquy-Arnostegi-Errozate-Les Chalets d'Irati-Larrau with a finish in either Ochagavia or Paso Tapla.

I want to use the Les Chalets d'Irati one but it is entirely on France and I will also have stage finish and stage start in Andorra and a finish at Gibraltar.
Would 3 stage finishes outside the Spain be too much?

Both stages will start in Lourdes btw.

 

[TromleTromle]

Re:

I have a Vuelta that is almost finished but I haven't decided about stage 15 yet.
It either has Soulor-Aubisque-Ahusquy-Arnostegi-Errozate with a finish in Les Chalets d'Irati or Ahusquy-Arnostegi-Errozate-Les Chalets d'Irati-Larrau with a finish in either Ochagavia or Paso Tapla.

I want to use the Les Chalets d'Irati one but it is entirely on France and I will also have stage finish and stage start in Andorra and a finish at Gibraltar.
Would 3 stage finishes outside the Spain be too much?

Both stages will start in Lourdes btw.

The Tour 16 just finished in Andorra, Berne and Finhaut - based on that NO.

but personally I would say max 2.

 

[fauniera]

Re:

I want to use the Les Chalets d'Irati one but it is entirely on France and I will also have stage finish and stage start in Andorra and a finish at Gibraltar.
Would 3 stage finishes outside the Spain be too much?

Both stages will start in Lourdes btw.

Why not start the Irati stage in Spain? An all Basque stage, if you want.

It's funny how many Vueltas are in the works. At least there is no overlap between mine and Libertines and Tromles so far.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

I want to use the Les Chalets d'Irati one but it is entirely on France and I will also have stage finish and stage start in Andorra and a finish at Gibraltar.
Would 3 stage finishes outside the Spain be too much?

Both stages will start in Lourdes btw.

Why not start the Irati stage in Spain? An all Basque stage, if you want.

It's funny how many Vueltas are in the works. At least there is no overlap between mine and Libertines and Tromles so far.

Yup I just realized I can start in Panticosa and put Pourtalet and Marie Blanque instead of Soulor-Aubisque.Thanks

@TromleTromle Thanks.It is my first Vuelta and I am not too experienced with Spain.Also I wanted to have a finish at Penon de Gibraltar a lot.

 

[Forever The Best]

And here comes my Vuelta!
http://www.la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/tours/view/4272
Total length:3566.03 km(It says 3416.78 but the first stage is 179,1 km long,not 29.85 since the circuit will be done 6 times.
7 ESP climbs:Haza del Lino(via Polopos),Coll de Fumanya,Coll de Pal,Coll de la Gallina,Col d'Arnosteguy,Arthaburu,Puerto de Ancares

13 1st category climbsuerto de Camacho(via Rubite),Puerto de Honduras,La Covatilla,Alto de Abantos,Puerto de la Morcuera,Col d'Ahusquy,Alto de Arrate,Monte Oiz,Cruz de Linares,Alto de la Cobetoria,Alto del Cordal,Alto de Valvaler,Alto de la Sierra Morela

129.85 km of ITT
7 various kinds of uphill finishes:
ESP:Coll de Pal
1C:La Covatilla
2Cenon de Gibraltar,Balneario de Panticosa,Les Chalets d'Iraty
3C:Lanjaron,San Lorenzo de el Escorial

 

[Forever The Best]

The link is on my previous post.You can look to all the stages from there.

Stage 1: Ceuta 179.1 km Lumpy
A lumpy stage with the circuit being done 6 times.The climb is 5.5 km at %4.8 and will feature 6 times and is 3C.

Stage 2: Sevilla-Penon de Gibraltar HTF 192.9 KM
A classic Vuelta ----/ stage.Penon de Gibraltar is a 2C climb which is 2.9 km at %11.4 and it should bring out some gaps.

Stage 3: Marbella-Malaga 58.7 km ITT
There is a 3rd category climb in the route but it is mostly flat and the climb is 5.7 km at %4.4 so it should be for the pure time-trialists.The tiny climbers should lose big time.

Stage 4:Almunecar-Lanjaron 180.7 km MT/HTF
A hard mountain stage that will climb Puerto de Camacho via Rubite 15.7 km at %6.2 before Haza del Lino via Polopos 18.8 km at %6.8 which is only 32.7 km from the finish with Lanjaron climb(7.1 km %4.6) being 6 km from the finish in the town of Lanjaron which are mostly flat except for the last km averaging %3.4731 meter of altitude gain.

Puerto de Camacho (1st Category, 1108 m, 15.7 Km at 6.2%, Km 59.6),
Haza del Lino (Category ESP, 1299 m, 18.8 Km at 6.8%, Km 147.9)
Lanjaron (3rd Category, 644 m, 7.1 Km at 4.6%, Km 174.7)

 

[Forever The Best]

Stage 5 Granada-Cordoba 160.7 km Flat
Only a 3C climb(Puerto Lope) in the beginning.A pure sprint stage.

Stage 6 Pozozblanco-Caceres 212.1 km Flat
Another pure sprint stage.

Stage 7 Coria-La Covatilla 177.6 km MTF
The first MTF of the race(Lanjaron was a HTF).The legs should be tired before the final climb which should sort out the contenders even more with perhaps a solo winner.4184 meter of altitude gain.
The climbs are:
Cabezabellosa (2nd Category, 934 m, 12.2 Km at 4.7%, Km 68.7)
Puerto de Honduras (1st Category, 1408 m, 19.3 Km at 4.9%, Km 111.7)
Puerto de la Garganta (2nd Category, 1314 m, 14.3 Km at 4.9%, Km 147.9)
Estación de Esquí La Covatilla (1st Category, 1963 m, 17.4 Km at 5.9%, Arrive)

Stage 8 Piedrahita-San Lorenzo de el Escorial 219.89 km Medium Mountain
A very hard medium mountain stage with 9 categorized climbs of which last 4 are Alto de Abantos,Alto de Robledondo,Pinar de Abantos and the hard steep uphill finish to San Lorenzo de el Escorial.4607 meter of altitude gain.

The last 4 climbs:
Alto de Abantos (1st Category, 1640 m, 11.2 Km at 5.4%, Km 170.1)
Alto de Robledondo (3rd Category, 1405 m, 3.9 Km at 6.2%, Km 193.7)
Pinar de Abantos (2nd Category, 1324 m, 4.4 Km at 6.7%, Km 206.1)
San Lorenzo de El Escorial (3rd Category, 1143 m, 3.6 Km at 7.0%, Arrive)

Stage 9 Collado Villalba-Collado Mediano: 178.3 km Medium Mountain
Thisis supposed to be a medium mountain stage with a breakaway winning and if a rider feels extremely well or has to attack it can have some GC action.The last two climbs are Morcuera-Cotos combo which brought Aru the Vuelta after cracking Dumoulin.

Alto del Leon (2nd Category, 1509 m, 7.2 Km at 7.2%, Km 17.3)
Puerto de Navacerrada (2nd Category, 1857 m, 8.5 Km at 6.6%, Km 74.3)
Puerto de Morcuera (1st Category, 1778 m, 10.7 Km at 6.5%, Km 126.0)
Puerto de Cotos (2nd Category, 1830 m, 11.4 Km at 5.4%, Km 156.9)

 

[Libertine Seguros]

After I did the Melilla Grand Départ in Vuelta #8, I did intend a Ceuta one to reflect it in a future Vuelta. Obviously I have also had a Peñón de Gibraltar finish in my 2nd Vuelta too (the "stretch-the-limits-of-Spanish-geography" edition that also had the Balearics, the Canaries and the two African exclaves) as well as an almost identical Ceuta stage so no problems with those.

I do think the TT is a bit too long for stage 3, as the time gaps opened up by such long chronos so early on tend to discourage a lot of people from entering who might have hoped for a spell in the lead early on, as well as the first mountain stage being perhaps too severe - generally an early mountain stage tends to be of the Montevergine style, I know the Vuelta included Lagos de Covadonga on stage 4 sometimes but that's generally Unipuerto; I don't think many sprinters can survive six laps of the climb in the Ceuta stage, so having to do a 60km chrono and two borderline HC climbs before they get anything to contest may discourage them from participating even more than usual. The stage itself, however, is great.

The La Covatilla stage is classic and it's a travesty that the real race has stopped doing things like that in the stages there. The San Lorenzo de El Escorial stage is very similar to one from my 5th Vuelta so of course I appreciate the design - I had mine on the penultimate day whereas yours is a key weekend stage. I would say that your Chalets d'Irati stage doesn't actually include Errozate as it appears you cut off the summit by going via Artaburu, as Sourzay would be somewhat longer if you went over the Errozate summit - however since I included that same finish in the very first race in this thread it goes without saying that I approve of such a finish. It's a nice nod to tradition all the movement around the medium mountains of the north in week 3, much as in the El Correo-El Pueblo Vasco days. Especially the intermediate stage 18 with Asón and Alisas is a real touch of Vuelta tradition which I appreciate. I particularly like the stages in the final weekend as independent stages especially the last one to Ponferrada - as a last GC-relevant stage, it could be really exciting with action from Ancares onward.

The big problem that you would have with such a course, however, is that it's simply too hard. That's always part of the problem in this thread, and it's part of the reason I've done so many different Vuelta routes; it's hard to limit oneself to a reasonable parcours while still including everything you want. Doing a Giro or the Österreich Rundfahrt is a nightmare for the same reason - so much choice that including what you want is nigh on impossible without leaving stuff you need out. Hence Eshnar's "Giro of the mountains" with 21 straight mountain stages (reprised twice). A few of the hilly/intermediate stages might need to be toned down, while 130km of ITT is incredible, and was more than you'd usually see from the Vuelta even in the days when TT mileage was rife (except those few editions when they were desperately trying to get e.g. Anquetil to show up).

As a standalone GT, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and especially the mountain stages as presented are pretty great imo, but given that the sprinters and hilly riders have so few opportunities in the race, there'd be little reason for them to enter, and anybody with designs on the World Championships will drop out extremely early, TT riders probably as early as stage 4 in fact, and there's very little respite in the route to allow riders a chance to gather their reserves for the next day, which generally is good, but may reach overkill at times as some of the stages may benefit from an easier run-in to the tricky finale to achieve similar desired effect with less rider attrition.

Tromle - weirdly enough, I lifted the Cálar Alto stage from an old, abandoned Vuelta route; another version of the same route included that exact stage from Motril to Puerto de la Ragua!

Both of you have rather pre-empted a couple of things I'm doing with my route however, so I'm going to stay tight-lipped...

 

[Forever The Best]

Stage 10 Barcelona ITT 42.3 km
A 42 km time trial around Barcelona will be another chance for the TTists.Therre are two uncategorized rises on the course before the final climb to Montjuic which is 3C(2 km at %6.8).The climbers should lose a lot of time though.

Stage 11 Barcelona-Coll de Pal 202.5 km MTF
Another mountain stage with the fearsome Fumanya-Pradell combo before the first and only ESP MTF of the race at Coll de Pal.
Coll de Fumanya (Category ESP, 1563 m, 11.2 Km at 8.1%, Km 146.5)
Coll de Pradell (2nd Category, 1732 m, 3.3 Km at 11.4%, Km 152.0)
Coll de Pal (Category ESP, 2103 m, 22.2 Km at 6.1%, Arrive)

Stage 12 Berga-Andorra la Vella MT 151.6 km
Another mountain stage with the Gallina-Comella combo in the end.
Port de Berga Tunel (2nd Category, 1209 m, 11.3 Km at 5.1%, Km 12.7)
Coll de Port (2nd Category, 1668 m, 19.2 Km at 4.5%, Km 49.4)
Cornellana (3rd Category, 1317 m, 5.4 Km at 5.1%, Km 67.6)
Coll de la Gallina (Hors Catégorie, 1903 m, 12.1 Km at 8.3%, Km 124.5)
Alt de la Comella (2nd Category, 1348 m, 5.1 Km at 7.6%, Km 145.3)

Stage 13 Andorra la Vella-Lleida 148.6 km Flat
A flat stage for the pure sprinters.

Stage 14 Huesca-Balneario de Panticosa 189.8 km HTF
A HTF at Balneario de Panticosa which is 11.3 km at %5 though there is also a climbing part before the last 11 km.
Las Bellostas (2nd Category, 1196 m, 4.4 Km at 7.1%, Km 90.5)
Balneario de Panticosa (2nd Category, 1653 m, 11.3 Km at 5.0%, Arrive)

Stage 15 Panticosa-Les Chalets d'Iraty 204.88 km MT/HTF
An awesome mountain stage and the last uphill finish of the race.Col du Pourtalet and Col du Marie Blanque should establish the break and shell some riders out the back.Then comes Ahusquy for a hard pace or even secondary attacks.Then we climb Arnostegi which is a ESP from its harder side and we take a shortcut at the beginning resulting in a much steeper climb.The GC battle may even start on Arnostegi because some riders simply need to gain time.
Then comes Arthaburu which is another ESP climb.The race should definitely explode and the gap should only grow on Col du Sourzay and the final climb to Les Chalets d'Iraty.5746 meter of altitude gain.Probably the queen stage of the race.

Col du Pourtalet (2nd Category, 1798 m, 14.8 Km at 4.7%, Km 18.6)
Col de Marie Blanque (2nd Category, 1045 m, 11.5 Km at 5.3%, Km 68.3)
Col d'Ahusquy (1st Category, 1086 m, 14.5 Km at 5.9%, Km 127.2)
Col d'Arnosteguy (Hors Catégorie, 1238 m, 13.1 Km at 7.9%, Km 162.2)
Col d'Arthaburu (Hors Catégorie, 1148 m, 8.6 Km at 9.8%, Km 187.5)
Col de Sourzay (4th Category, 1141 m, 3.2 Km at 4.2%, Km 195.2)
Les Chalets d'Iraty (2nd Category, 1334 m, 6.0 Km at 5.5%, Arrive).

 

[Forever The Best]

Re:

After I did the Melilla Grand Départ in Vuelta #8, I did intend a Ceuta one to reflect it in a future Vuelta. Obviously I have also had a Peñón de Gibraltar finish in my 2nd Vuelta too (the "stretch-the-limits-of-Spanish-geography" edition that also had the Balearics, the Canaries and the two African exclaves) as well as an almost identical Ceuta stage so no problems with those.

I do think the TT is a bit too long for stage 3, as the time gaps opened up by such long chronos so early on tend to discourage a lot of people from entering who might have hoped for a spell in the lead early on, as well as the first mountain stage being perhaps too severe - generally an early mountain stage tends to be of the Montevergine style, I know the Vuelta included Lagos de Covadonga on stage 4 sometimes but that's generally Unipuerto; I don't think many sprinters can survive six laps of the climb in the Ceuta stage, so having to do a 60km chrono and two borderline HC climbs before they get anything to contest may discourage them from participating even more than usual. The stage itself, however, is great.

The La Covatilla stage is classic and it's a travesty that the real race has stopped doing things like that in the stages there. The San Lorenzo de El Escorial stage is very similar to one from my 5th Vuelta so of course I appreciate the design - I had mine on the penultimate day whereas yours is a key weekend stage. I would say that your Chalets d'Irati stage doesn't actually include Errozate as it appears you cut off the summit by going via Artaburu, as Sourzay would be somewhat longer if you went over the Errozate summit - however since I included that same finish in the very first race in this thread it goes without saying that I approve of such a finish. It's a nice nod to tradition all the movement around the medium mountains of the north in week 3, much as in the El Correo-El Pueblo Vasco days. Especially the intermediate stage 18 with Asón and Alisas is a real touch of Vuelta tradition which I appreciate. I particularly like the stages in the final weekend as independent stages especially the last one to Ponferrada - as a last GC-relevant stage, it could be really exciting with action from Ancares onward.

The big problem that you would have with such a course, however, is that it's simply too hard. That's always part of the problem in this thread, and it's part of the reason I've done so many different Vuelta routes; it's hard to limit oneself to a reasonable parcours while still including everything you want. Doing a Giro or the Österreich Rundfahrt is a nightmare for the same reason - so much choice that including what you want is nigh on impossible without leaving stuff you need out. Hence Eshnar's "Giro of the mountains" with 21 straight mountain stages (reprised twice). A few of the hilly/intermediate stages might need to be toned down, while 130km of ITT is incredible, and was more than you'd usually see from the Vuelta even in the days when TT mileage was rife (except those few editions when they were desperately trying to get e.g. Anquetil to show up).

As a standalone GT, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and especially the mountain stages as presented are pretty great imo, but given that the sprinters and hilly riders have so few opportunities in the race, there'd be little reason for them to enter, and anybody with designs on the World Championships will drop out extremely early, TT riders probably as early as stage 4 in fact, and there's very little respite in the route to allow riders a chance to gather their reserves for the next day, which generally is good, but may reach overkill at times as some of the stages may benefit from an easier run-in to the tricky finale to achieve similar desired effect with less rider attrition.

Tromle - weirdly enough, I lifted the Cálar Alto stage from an old, abandoned Vuelta route; another version of the same route included that exact stage from Motril to Puerto de la Ragua!

Both of you have rather pre-empted a couple of things I'm doing with my route however, so I'm going to stay tight-lipped...

Thanks a lot for the comment Libertine

The point of such a long TT is to make climbers realize that they need to attack hard to win the race and there are certanly opportunities to do.
And the reason I made such a hard first week is to make the riders be in the top form for all race.
That La Covatilla stage is good indeed.I also thought about finishing in El Travieso instead but that is for a future Vuelta

Thanks about the info about Errozate-Arthaburu!Fixed it.

And I wanted to make stage 21 as a GC relevant road stage with finnish in a big city so that was the reason for a stage.
And I have always wanted to see Cobertoria-Cordal combo with a finish in Oviedo and added extra climbs and it became a great stage.

And yeah,the route is too hard but I don't like the sprinters so it is fine with me
It is also my first Vuelta try so there can be lots of bad parts.
And as I said a climber can still win this Vuelta if he attacks hard.There are enough opportunities.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Oh, the problem isn't that they don't have the opportunities - if anything they have too many!

Personally, using the route plot that you have there, I'd have been tempted to do it as follows:

stage 3 - probably a shorter TT around Marbella to set the scene early (like you I have a predilection sometimes for starting with a road stage, sometimes a circuit like my Toledo and Melilla Vuelta starts, and then an early TT, though I prefer a short-mid length one in the circumstances, like the Cholet TT in the 2008 Tour) into stage 4 from Málaga and probably just climbing Haza del Lino rather than Camacho too. Climbers will already have a deficit to attack and the climb is still hard enough to force selection far out. With two big mountain stages mid-week in both of the first two weeks, the weekend stages as well make it difficult. It's problematic as stage 14 is probably the most "redundant" MTF (you called it an HTF, but realistically at over 11km in length it's an MTF) but you wouldn't want to replace with a transitional stage 'cos it's a weekend. The same goes for perhaps the most disposable intermediate stages, stage 9 and stage 18 - both are probably ones for the break in modern cycling on this route, but you wouldn't want an easy stage on stage 9 as it's a weekend, and it would be a shame to lose stage 18 with its great sense of tradition and history in the Vuelta.

The Vuelta has sort of a reverse problem from the Tour, in that for the Tour the hard mountains are all placed in a small number of distinct areas, and the challenge is more finding ways to keep the race interesting transitioning between those; with the Vuelta, there are fewer brutal connective mountains, but there are mountains almost everywhere. That's part of why I put in my no repetition rule, though in some hypothetical future Vuelta I may reconsider when I'm reduced to a queen stage to La Pinilla or am confronted with the decision to make over whether to use Valle de los Caídos (which the Vuelta doesn't use for the same reason the Deutschlandtour never went to the Kehlsteinhaus)...

 

[Forever The Best]

Re:

Oh, the problem isn't that they don't have the opportunities - if anything they have too many!

Personally, using the route plot that you have there, I'd have been tempted to do it as follows:

stage 3 - probably a shorter TT around Marbella to set the scene early (like you I have a predilection sometimes for starting with a road stage, sometimes a circuit like my Toledo and Melilla Vuelta starts, and then an early TT, though I prefer a short-mid length one in the circumstances, like the Cholet TT in the 2008 Tour) into stage 4 from Málaga and probably just climbing Haza del Lino rather than Camacho too. Climbers will already have a deficit to attack and the climb is still hard enough to force selection far out. With two big mountain stages mid-week in both of the first two weeks, the weekend stages as well make it difficult. It's problematic as stage 14 is probably the most "redundant" MTF (you called it an HTF, but realistically at over 11km in length it's an MTF) but you wouldn't want to replace with a transitional stage 'cos it's a weekend. The same goes for perhaps the most disposable intermediate stages, stage 9 and stage 18 - both are probably ones for the break in modern cycling on this route, but you wouldn't want an easy stage on stage 9 as it's a weekend, and it would be a shame to lose stage 18 with its great sense of tradition and history in the Vuelta.

The Vuelta has sort of a reverse problem from the Tour, in that for the Tour the hard mountains are all placed in a small number of distinct areas, and the challenge is more finding ways to keep the race interesting transitioning between those; with the Vuelta, there are fewer brutal connective mountains, but there are mountains almost everywhere. That's part of why I put in my no repetition rule, though in some hypothetical future Vuelta I may reconsider when I'm reduced to a queen stage to La Pinilla or am confronted with the decision to make over whether to use Valle de los Caídos (which the Vuelta doesn't use for the same reason the Deutschlandtour never went to the Kehlsteinhaus)...

I didn't think about the weekend thing at all.
I also didn't know Ason and Alisas had such a Vuelta tradition.I just wanted to make a transitional stage for the break.Live and learn,definitely :razz:

I called Balneario de Panticosa a HTF because it is a 2C.
Les Chalets d'Iraty is a MT/HTF as well becuase the last climb is 2C while the previous climbs are mountainous(they are so hard that it is the queen stage of the race)

I only made the Lanjaron,Oviedo and Ponferrada stages at first.Then I realized I can make a Vuelta with them.
I was aiming to go north from the coast with a MTF on Font del Partagas and Coll de Pal but it wasn't possible.Also the thought of going to Madrid after Font del Partagas was lame since there were 3 flat stages from 4 stages between Lanjaron and San Lorenzo de El Escorial with the only non-flat stage finishing in Font del Partagas and when I realized that I can go to Madrid and make some hard stages around there I went to that direction directly after the Lanjaron stage.Then it all went from there.