The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to
In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.
Thanks!
Forever The Best said:I have a Vuelta that is almost finished but I haven't decided about stage 15 yet.
It either has Soulor-Aubisque-Ahusquy-Arnostegi-Errozate with a finish in Les Chalets d'Irati or Ahusquy-Arnostegi-Errozate-Les Chalets d'Irati-Larrau with a finish in either Ochagavia or Paso Tapla.
I want to use the Les Chalets d'Irati one but it is entirely on France and I will also have stage finish and stage start in Andorra and a finish at Gibraltar.
Would 3 stage finishes outside the Spain be too much?
Both stages will start in Lourdes btw.
Forever The Best said:I want to use the Les Chalets d'Irati one but it is entirely on France and I will also have stage finish and stage start in Andorra and a finish at Gibraltar.
Would 3 stage finishes outside the Spain be too much?
Both stages will start in Lourdes btw.
Yup I just realized I can start in Panticosa and put Pourtalet and Marie Blanque instead of Soulor-Aubisque.Thanksfauniera said:Forever The Best said:I want to use the Les Chalets d'Irati one but it is entirely on France and I will also have stage finish and stage start in Andorra and a finish at Gibraltar.
Would 3 stage finishes outside the Spain be too much?
Both stages will start in Lourdes btw.
Why not start the Irati stage in Spain? An all Basque stage, if you want.
It's funny how many Vueltas are in the works. At least there is no overlap between mine and Libertines and Tromles so far.
Thanks a lot for the comment LibertineLibertine Seguros said:After I did the Melilla Grand Départ in Vuelta #8, I did intend a Ceuta one to reflect it in a future Vuelta. Obviously I have also had a Peñón de Gibraltar finish in my 2nd Vuelta too (the "stretch-the-limits-of-Spanish-geography" edition that also had the Balearics, the Canaries and the two African exclaves) as well as an almost identical Ceuta stage so no problems with those.
I do think the TT is a bit too long for stage 3, as the time gaps opened up by such long chronos so early on tend to discourage a lot of people from entering who might have hoped for a spell in the lead early on, as well as the first mountain stage being perhaps too severe - generally an early mountain stage tends to be of the Montevergine style, I know the Vuelta included Lagos de Covadonga on stage 4 sometimes but that's generally Unipuerto; I don't think many sprinters can survive six laps of the climb in the Ceuta stage, so having to do a 60km chrono and two borderline HC climbs before they get anything to contest may discourage them from participating even more than usual. The stage itself, however, is great.
The La Covatilla stage is classic and it's a travesty that the real race has stopped doing things like that in the stages there. The San Lorenzo de El Escorial stage is very similar to one from my 5th Vuelta so of course I appreciate the design - I had mine on the penultimate day whereas yours is a key weekend stage. I would say that your Chalets d'Irati stage doesn't actually include Errozate as it appears you cut off the summit by going via Artaburu, as Sourzay would be somewhat longer if you went over the Errozate summit - however since I included that same finish in the very first race in this thread it goes without saying that I approve of such a finish. It's a nice nod to tradition all the movement around the medium mountains of the north in week 3, much as in the El Correo-El Pueblo Vasco days. Especially the intermediate stage 18 with Asón and Alisas is a real touch of Vuelta tradition which I appreciate. I particularly like the stages in the final weekend as independent stages especially the last one to Ponferrada - as a last GC-relevant stage, it could be really exciting with action from Ancares onward.
The big problem that you would have with such a course, however, is that it's simply too hard. That's always part of the problem in this thread, and it's part of the reason I've done so many different Vuelta routes; it's hard to limit oneself to a reasonable parcours while still including everything you want. Doing a Giro or the Österreich Rundfahrt is a nightmare for the same reason - so much choice that including what you want is nigh on impossible without leaving stuff you need out. Hence Eshnar's "Giro of the mountains" with 21 straight mountain stages (reprised twice). A few of the hilly/intermediate stages might need to be toned down, while 130km of ITT is incredible, and was more than you'd usually see from the Vuelta even in the days when TT mileage was rife (except those few editions when they were desperately trying to get e.g. Anquetil to show up).
As a standalone GT, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and especially the mountain stages as presented are pretty great imo, but given that the sprinters and hilly riders have so few opportunities in the race, there'd be little reason for them to enter, and anybody with designs on the World Championships will drop out extremely early, TT riders probably as early as stage 4 in fact, and there's very little respite in the route to allow riders a chance to gather their reserves for the next day, which generally is good, but may reach overkill at times as some of the stages may benefit from an easier run-in to the tricky finale to achieve similar desired effect with less rider attrition.
Tromle - weirdly enough, I lifted the Cálar Alto stage from an old, abandoned Vuelta route; another version of the same route included that exact stage from Motril to Puerto de la Ragua!
Both of you have rather pre-empted a couple of things I'm doing with my route however, so I'm going to stay tight-lipped...
Libertine Seguros said:Oh, the problem isn't that they don't have the opportunities - if anything they have too many!
Personally, using the route plot that you have there, I'd have been tempted to do it as follows:
stage 3 - probably a shorter TT around Marbella to set the scene early (like you I have a predilection sometimes for starting with a road stage, sometimes a circuit like my Toledo and Melilla Vuelta starts, and then an early TT, though I prefer a short-mid length one in the circumstances, like the Cholet TT in the 2008 Tour) into stage 4 from Málaga and probably just climbing Haza del Lino rather than Camacho too. Climbers will already have a deficit to attack and the climb is still hard enough to force selection far out. With two big mountain stages mid-week in both of the first two weeks, the weekend stages as well make it difficult. It's problematic as stage 14 is probably the most "redundant" MTF (you called it an HTF, but realistically at over 11km in length it's an MTF) but you wouldn't want to replace with a transitional stage 'cos it's a weekend. The same goes for perhaps the most disposable intermediate stages, stage 9 and stage 18 - both are probably ones for the break in modern cycling on this route, but you wouldn't want an easy stage on stage 9 as it's a weekend, and it would be a shame to lose stage 18 with its great sense of tradition and history in the Vuelta.
The Vuelta has sort of a reverse problem from the Tour, in that for the Tour the hard mountains are all placed in a small number of distinct areas, and the challenge is more finding ways to keep the race interesting transitioning between those; with the Vuelta, there are fewer brutal connective mountains, but there are mountains almost everywhere. That's part of why I put in my no repetition rule, though in some hypothetical future Vuelta I may reconsider when I'm reduced to a queen stage to La Pinilla or am confronted with the decision to make over whether to use Valle de los Caídos (which the Vuelta doesn't use for the same reason the Deutschlandtour never went to the Kehlsteinhaus)...