Race Design Thread

[Another_Dutch_Guy]

It seems that many people over here have lost their interest in the Tour! Whereas this tread was more dead than alive during the first Tour week, there is now an explosion of added races!

I'm still a bit too busy with the Tour and other things, but I have two grand tours in the planning: A Vuelta a Espana and a Tour of Scandinavia. I'm not very well known in the latter area, so suggestions are more than welcome!

 

[Progsprach]

Keep in mind that:

1. The H-3 (and H-1 and H-2) highways are all controlled-access interstates.
2. The H-3 and 63 run through a tunnel in those areas, rather than over the climbs. I know you're looking for a Classics-like stage, but you're probably going to get a sprinters' finish.

I did edit out the distortion caused by the tunnel though(Google earth thought the gradient was 50% before BTW ), so the profile should be correct and it still looks somewhat selective, since the road first ascends for a bit and only then do we pass through the tunnel. However, it mignt not be enough to get a climbing sprinter out, if that's what you mean.

 

[Progsprach]

Tour of Hawaii Stage 6

Kahulu'i - Ahili Kenau (118km)

Well, we're on Maui now and everyone can already see the climb, but it's going to loom over them some more for now because it's an easy day today and then the rest day before we tackle this beast. In Waihee- Waihu just 11km from the start some sprint points are on offer, a short time before the only real difficulty of the day, the cat.3 climb to Kukuipuka Helau (6km@4,5%). After that the profile undulates some more, but it never gets really difficult. After the intermediate in Kihai it's only 20 flat km to the finish, where all the sprinters get one of their few chances, so a breakaway win seems unlikely today. The climbers will save energy, as they will think about their strategies and train their legs on the rest day in the shadow of Red Hill.

Route:

Profile:

 

[Progsprach]

Tour of Hawaii Stage 7

Ahili Kenau - Red Hill (223km)

After the rest day, we're still in the exact same spot(that's new for me) and we're having a very difficult stage, one could call it the princess' stage (since it would become the queen's stage if that other one disappeared). It actually starts out completely flat roughly until the intermediate in Paia, but then ascend to Pukalani (2nd cat., 11km@4,5%). A descent and a few inconsistenst kms later, there is another ascent to the Bank of Hawaii (3rd cat, 3,5km@7,5km), but after that it gets pretty flat for another about 50km, before we ascend to Kahiki Nui (cat. 3, 6km@6%) and some kms later reach reach the beginning stages of Red Hill. The first part of Red Hill is about 6,5km@5% and rated 3rd category. After that there is a short flat before the second part, which is about 3,5km long and 6% steep (cat. 4). A short false flat leads to the main HC part of that climb with an average gradient of 6,5% for 31km, where a summit finish will be held at about 3000m of altitude(on real roads this time).

Route:

Profile:

 

[sensations]

Right then. First - nay 3rd post so HI.

Little Tour De France I whipped up the other day from Saint Malo to Paris, counter-clockwise without a stage góing any higher than 1800m.

http://www.tracks4bikers.com/tours/1959

Week 1 is slightly uneventful, featuring finishes on Circuit de Sarthe in Le Mans, a TTT nearby Bordeaux, but the first weekend includes the sought-after pyrenees atlantiques stage on the Saturday and another Pyrenees stage on the Sunday, with a bit of a twist during the last 100km, finishing in Lannemezan.

Week 2 heads into the southern Massif Central without any massively difficult stages though, leading the pack to Nimes and then after a short detour into the Provence La Mure. The second weekend features two stages in the Alps, Saturday from La Mure via Chamrousse to the Collet d'Allevard, the second to the Semnoz.

Another rest day and the final week begins in Lausanne, with finishes on Mont St. Odile and an ITT on stages 17 and 18. Stage 19 and 20 lead through the extreme north of France and Satuday sees the competitive tour finish with a bang in Valenciennes (something Prud'homme will never have the balls to do sadly). You'll see what I mean once you see the track.

I'm really really happy with the second half of the tour - I think the first half can so with som tweaking but yeah.

Going over it quicky, I'd say it features 7 HC climbs and about 9 1st Cats.

 

[Progsprach]

Tour of Hawaii Stage 8

Lanai - Lanai (151km)

This stage really is convenient for the logistics, it starts and finishes right at the airport we use to transfer here and transfer to the main island after this stage. It's 2 laps of a circuit including 1 4th category (4,5km@4,5%) and 2 steep 2nd category climbs (4,5km@10% and 4km@13%) on the Munro Trail and three similar descents. After the first lap the intermediate Sprint is held. And if you make the connection trail=there' some gravel/dirt in the mix, then you're exactly right, but there's some highway passages,too. The finish is slightly uphill, but only starting at about 1,5km from the finish, so most sprinters should still win this if they're in the leading group. Therefore the puncheurs will need to try and get away. The GC contenders will probably save their legs, however, since the next day, it's Queen's stage time.

Route:

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[Libertine Seguros]

Ferminal - I love you. Col de Parpaillon on stage 2?! Descending the harder side?!

Progsprach - you are obviously the biggest sadist this thread has ever seen. Dirt roads at 5000m altitude, climbing from sea level to 3000m in the next race... in a one week race? That may be too much even for Zomegnan! No wait, who am I kidding? Zomegnan approves!

sensations - that Lannemezan stage is exactly what the Tour should be doing more of. No respite all day, just up and down continually. No superclimbs, just punishing the riders. This may sound ridiculous but I think Pierre Saint Martin in stage 8 is possibly a little too easy as a final climb as it's a fair way from the summit of Artaburu (though you have Sourzay and Bagargui afterwards, they are just gradual in comparison)... PSM is a great climb, but it does seem to relegate Arnostegi and Artaburu/Errozate (would have been golden if you'd gone all the way to the summit; you may have done but it doesn't look like it from the map?) to being super-difficult tune-up climbs. Nevertheless, they are probably difficult enough to create gaps on their own.

 

[Progsprach]

Tour of Hawaii Stage 9

Pehala - Mauna Kea (156km)

Well, this is the Queen Stage. Honestly, who wasn't expecting this? I mean: how can you beat ascending from sea level to 3000m after a bunch of hills on good roads? Ascending from sea level to 4157m after another real mountan on still good roads (got you there, you were expecting dirt roads, weren't you? ). It's an unequal double, but the only real multiclimb stage. After the start from Pahala the riders climb Kilauea, a first category long drag of 34km@3% to about 1200m and then they descend all the way down to sea level(literally 0m). Well, there is an intermediate sprint in Keaau, but that's probably irrelevant. And then, the stage title gives it away, probably the longest ascent with a decent gradient, the Mauna Kea 68km@6% and it has sections up to 13% only a few kms away from the finsh, but except for 1 or 2kms there is almost no false flat in this probably hardest road bike climbable ascent in the world (and the reason I made this tour). Now if only there was some steep climb like the Mortirolo around to destroy the legs some more . Anyway, the climbers will have to give everything on this stage, given that its their last opportunity and the TTers still have a little something coming.

Route:

Profile:

 

[Progsprach]

Tour of Hawaii Stage 10

Mauna Kea - Pohakuloa ITT (47km)

Before seeing the course some might say that 80km of ITT were too much for 11 stages. After seeing those last two MTF it might seem somewhat more sensible. Besides the parcours of this ITT is much more varied and probably my favorite stage of this race. The riders start by doing 3 laps on top of the Mauna Key, i.e. at 4157m of altitude, every lap including a short 1,5km@7% climb and its descent. After those laps they reach the first time check and the second section of the ITT, which is the somewhat technical descent down about half the Mauna Kea, so its a descent of 23km@-9%, until they reach the intersection to Saddle Road, where the second time check is taken. The third section is just 12km flat, though still at about 2000m of altitude. This TT can only be won by an allrounder, who can TT, descend, at least somewhat climb and handle altitudes.

Route:

Profile:

 

[sensations]

The Zome approves meme is an utter TRIUMPH. Love it.

I love the whole idea of a Tour Hawaii but it's just one extreme after another, isn't it? Fun times.

Libertine Seguros - I know, PSM is not really steep enough to compete with Artaburu/Anorstegi but I like the contrast between having two really steep climbs and a final ascent slightly akin to Plateau De Beille in both gradient and length. Plus I reckon there are more than enough really steep walls in the alps, namely the Luitel (gagging for inclusion since ages) and the similarly cruel Pre-Long - even though the Collet d'Allevard isn't quite as steep, which makes it a bit of a replica of stage 8

 

[Progsprach]

Tour of Hawaii Stage 11

Pohakuloa - Hilo (179km)

It's time for the promenade! And those of you who saw Macau-Macau know what that means, it's time to use every single road of that city. Before we can do that however, we still have 2000m of descent left(that mountain sure is big). After that, we do get to our city circuit, which is another sharp bends festival, so stay out of trouble. It also includes two categorized climbs a 4th cat 3,5km@5% and a 3rd cat 6km@5%. They're unlikely to cause gaps, but if KoM is real close, it might get interesting. The same goes for the intermediate sprints at the beginning of the 1st and 2nd round. After two full laps, we do a half one, but then leave the circuit to finish things off with a few rounds around the airport, from which the rider will fly home.

Route:

Profile:

PS: I already got a Tour of Beijing route drawn up so that's next. And it's a lot less crazy.

 

[roundabout]

It seems that many people over here have lost their interest in the Tour! Whereas this tread was more dead than alive during the first Tour week, there is now an explosion of added races!

I'm still a bit too busy with the Tour and other things, but I have two grand tours in the planning: A Vuelta a Espana and a Tour of Scandinavia. I'm not very well known in the latter area, so suggestions are more than welcome!

Some Norway climbs.

http://cyclingcols.com/asp/colsframe.asp?m=6383&g=6383&c=6383&r=0&s=0

Sweden on the other hand...

On a personal note, I am trying to recreate the Peace Race, but can't seem to put together satisfactory stages.

Edit 2: wiki says that the highest paved road in Sweden is at 975m

Edit 3: that's highest public paved road

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sveriges_högst_belägna_vägar

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I will finish my Vuelta soon, but in the interim, I present something rather unlike me... a one-day classic that never gets above 150m altitude! However, the climate is what makes this one unique.

Arctic Circle Trophy - GP Tromsø (178km)

This is your fairly typical 1.1 kind of race in terms of profile, with a number of small climbs, as the péloton winds their way around the island of Tromsøya, which houses the second largest city north of the Arctic Circle (after Murmansk). Tromsø is 350km above said line, and as a result would be almost certainly the northernmost race in the world. Home of the Arctic Cathedral and the world's most northerly university, this is a really nice city and would make a great host for a bike race.

Plus - this is something truly unique - given that to get proper race conditions here it would likely need to be in the mid-summer (perhaps just after the Glava Tour?)... this could be the first race that finishes at midnight local time... in daylight, thanks to Tromsø's midnight sun.

The race itself consists of three circuits, each done three times.

The first circuit is approximately 25km in length and features one climb (the 1,7km @ 5,5% drag up to Stakkevollan, the student village, which features gradients of up to 14%). The rest of the circuit is rolling or pan-flat around the perimeter of the island.

On the fourth lap, the riders begin from the start-finish line on Storgata and use the coastal road to navigate the southern tip of the island as before, but now they must take on the climb of Holtvegen (1,3km @ 6,0%, mostly consistent at around 7,5% but flattening toward the top) in the first half of the circuit, before facing the rolling second half and the climb of Stakkevollan. This will be undertaken 3 times as well.

On lap 7, however, the circuits become far shorter. Again, the southern part of Tromsøya is undertaken on the main road, but we quickly turn right, left then right again onto the climb of Røstbakken (1,2km @ 6,1%, max of 11% close to the summit). Røstbakken becomes Mellomvegen on a frantic but not too steep descent leading to a nice wide double right hander back onto Storgata to the finish. Two further laps of this circuit, which means the climbs are brought closer together, should enable some really good Classics-style racing to break out, and with the finish being just after the descent, then you can imagine attacks on the final climb being decisive. With the roads susceptible to the weather this far north, then road surfaces could come into it too, so this one could be for anything from a sprinter, through a rouleur hardman to an Ardennes specialist; 12 climbs in all, and one dramatic backdrop.

Tromsø:

Storgata:

 

[Progsprach]

Tour of Hawai'i Review

Well, first of all, here's that giant bandwith-consuming picture of this 1492km long route again (No, I sized it down this time ):

This time we had the following climbs:
cat.4: 10 cat. 4 summits: 0
cat.3: 13 cat.3 sum. : 1
cat.2: 6 cat. 2 sum.: 0
cat.1: 2 cat. 1 sum.: 0
HC: 0 HC sum: 2
Total mountain points: 2438
Maximum m. points: 483

We also had 13 int. sprints, 2TTs, 4 Mountain stages, 2 hilly stages and 3 flat stages for a total of 2469 and maximum of 442 sprint points.

The highest point was the ridiculous Mauna Kea and even Round Hill was higher than any Cima Coppi. I think 80km TT were required to balance this.


And now back to the Middle Kingdom for an improved Tour of Beijing (took me like 30 mins to come up with a better course and after some fine-tuning it's finished, how did they even fail so badly in a city like Beijing). There's also something special you wouldn't expect from me at all, so stay tuned.

BTW: I like that classics course, at least there the rider don't have to turn 90 degrees every 5m unlike in my flat stages ;-) and after that tour of Beijing I'm gonna be on traditional roads in Europe for the first time

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Mauna Kea - Pohakuloa ITT (47km)

Before seeing the course some might say that 80km of ITT were too much for 11 stages. After seeing those last two MTF it might seem somewhat more sensible. Besides the parcours of this ITT is much more varied and probably my favorite stage of this race. The riders start by doing 3 laps on top of the Mauna Key, i.e. at 4157m of altitude, every lap including a short 1,5km@7% climb and its descent. After those laps they reach the first time check and the second section of the ITT, which is the somewhat technical descent down about half the Mauna Kea, so its a descent of 23km@-9%, until they reach the intersection to Saddle Road, where the second time check is taken. The third section is just 12km flat, though still at about 2000m of altitude. This TT can only be won by an allrounder, who can TT, descend, at least somewhat climb and handle altitudes.

This is where it goes just so ludicrously extreme it hurts. In 1987 (I think) the Giro had a downhill TT descending the Poggio di Sanremo. Just a few km, and not an especially steep descent. Riders complained that the organisers were trying to kill them... I can foresee only the most foolhardy and masochistic of cyclists even wanting to start this Tour - maybe they'll even be stopping halfway down the descent to replace their worn-out brakepads!

Libertine Seguros - I know, PSM is not really steep enough to compete with Artaburu/Anorstegi but I like the contrast between having two really steep climbs and a final ascent slightly akin to Plateau De Beille in both gradient and length. Plus I reckon there are more than enough really steep walls in the alps, namely the Luitel (gagging for inclusion since ages) and the similarly cruel Pre-Long - even though the Collet d'Allevard isn't quite as steep, which makes it a bit of a replica of stage 8

Well, if you wanted to make it tougher than Allevard, you could always use Val Pelouse next door!

Some Norway climbs.

http://cyclingcols.com/asp/colsframe.asp?m=6383&g=6383&c=6383&r=0&s=0

Sweden and Finland on the other hand...

On a personal note, I am trying to recreate the Peace Race, but can't seem to put together satisfactory stages.

Yea, Norway has almost all the climbs in Scandinavia (unless you want to count Iceland, but most of those except the ski station at Hliðarfjall are pretty inaccessible. The Tour of Sweden used to have a pretty decent up-and-down stage around Jonköping and Huskvarna if I recall, plus the climb of Frösön hill just outside Östersund could make for a good puncheur finish.

I did think about trying to recreate the Peace Race myself at one point, but it's quite difficult to work out. Berlin-Warsaw-Prague offers the best potential for the closing stages but would offer a dull first few days, plus would more or less prevent using the icon of the race, the Steile Wand von Meerane, which I simply couldn't have the race without. Warsaw-Berlin-Prague eliminates this problem, but then makes it trickier to utilise the climbs on the Polish-Czech border. Warsaw-Prague-Berlin is probably the most logical way to do it, but then the race in my head turns out to be more or less an abridged Tour de Pologne with a bunch of Czech medium mountains tacked on the end, then some moderately hilly Sachsen stages on the end.

I'd still like to do it at some point, but it would take quite a lot of work to get one that I would be happy with. Maybe it's one for the offseason.

 

[Progsprach]

This is where it goes just so ludicrously extreme it hurts. In 1987 (I think) the Giro had a downhill TT descending the Poggio di Sanremo. Just a few km, and not an especially steep descent. Riders complained that the organisers were trying to kill them... I can foresee only the most foolhardy and masochistic of cyclists even wanting to start this Tour - maybe they'll even be stopping halfway down the descent to replace their worn-out brakepads!

I actually saw that one on youtube and that's part of where my inspiration came from. Some of these stages I just had to do once to see what the hardest possible races with the roads we have are and China and Hawai'i were just perfect (altitudewise). I got most of those stages out now and my next tries are gonna be less crazy just because of the areas I use (first Beijing, than something in Italy and finally something close to home). I just hope they don't seem anticlimactic after this .

PS: But it's just half the descent , they won't even have to break that much since most of the time it's straight down you think that's more ridiculous than a 68km@6% MTF? But this Tour and that other one should probably be classified as extreme sport

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I actually saw that one on youtube and that's part of where my inspiration came from. Some of these stages I just had to do once to see what the hardest possible races with the roads we have are and China and Hawai'i were just perfect (altitudewise). I got most of those stages out now and my next tries are gonna be less crazy just because of the areas I use (first Beijing, than something in Italy and finally something close to home). I just hope they don't seem anticlimactic after this .

Au contraire, while it's fun to see just what the limits of possibility are, it is also fun to put together more mundane, or realistic, races - that's the fun of this thread. You can make something as completely insane as you like to show the possibilities (I found a Brazilian climb of 16km at 5-6% all on cobbles, for example), or you can show us where existing race directors are going wrong with your opinions of a realistically achievable route for their races.

It's only if you start to go in the direction of the Tour of Nullarbor (which was posted as an extreme example to wind me up by King of the Wolds, but I enjoyed the joke so much that I've included it in the thread libraries) that it'll be anticlimactic.

 

[roundabout]

I do have some ideas for difficult stages in Sachsen and Czech Republic. What I struggle with is finding good climbs in Poland (now I know how Lang feels *sigh*) and joining the difficult stages together as most of them turn out to be on the short side and end up in one block. Also, the difficult stages don't really seem difficult enough if I want to keep a certain degree of realism.

 

[Progsprach]

Tour of Beijing Stage 1

Beijing - Beiqijiazhen ITT (17km)

It's only the first stage and already I've fixed everyone's most important concern about the Tour of Beijing: That time trial is way too short so the time trialists have no chance. What, that wasn't your problem?

Joking aside, one of the "traditions"D) of the race is the opening time trial and it's here again. It's almost completely flat, except for a few hundred meters at the beginning and it mostly consist of long straights, before and after the time check in Beiqijiazhen so the specialists are gonna have a field day with this one. But unlike that last time there actually are some difficulties in the next stages where they have to fight. I mean the Western Hills are all around Beijing. How can you even manage to avoid them???

That special thing (at least for me) I mentioned; you might notice it starting the next stage.

Route:

Profile:

BTW: I'd like some feedback about the presentation: Are the explanatory texts too long/ too short? What do you thing about the format of the profiles/routes? And do you like those review posts or are they unneccessary?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

BTW: I'd like some feedback about the presentation: Are the explanatory texts too long/ too short? What do you thing about the format of the profiles/routes? And do you like those review posts or are they unneccessary?

Explanatory texts in this thread range from a quick one-sentence summing up (usually of flat stages when people are trying to cram whole parcours into posts) to War and Peace (some of my TDF stages). As long as you're saying everything you feel needs to be said about the race route, then everything's fine.

 

[sensations]

Well, if you wanted to make it tougher than Allevard, you could always use Val Pelouse next door!

I know Val Pelouse is a fair bit more difficult - but would it, realistically speaking, have even remotely enough space to host anything on the summit?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

They've widened it out a bit of late, you could host a smaller race there, not Le Tour with all its trappings though.

 

[Progsprach]

Tour of Beijing Stage 2

Beiqijiazhen - Zhuang Hucun (169km)

Well, it's time for, well not really mountains, but some nice hills. It's just too late in the calendar to do any real moutains (you never thought you'd hear that from me, did you?). The first few Kilometers out of Beijing are completely flat so we do our intermediate there, in Xingshouzhen. After that the terrain gets lumpy and we reach our first of two cat. 2 climbs to Xidapo (4km@10%), just a few kms of lumpy downhill, then we make it to Shuangyao (3km@12,5%). The road will stay lumpy for about 50 km after a short descent, then it's a short flat section before things gets hilly again in preperation for our hilltop finish it's a very inconsistent climb with a low average gradient, but it's rather long(cat.3, 11km@3,5%). And with that we have our first of two hilly GC-days. Was that so hard, UCI?(I pretty much just randomly clicked into those hills so no it was not)

Route:

Profile:

 

[togo95]

Lorient - Saint-Brieuc

Lorient - Saint-Brieuc; 210,5 km

This is another hilly one-day race. During the first parts the terrain is rolling as riders go trough Plouay. First bigger obstacle is on km 60, but the real fun begins in the city of Saint-Brieuc, 50 km before the line, where there are, after reasonably straight way from Lorient to Saint-Brieuc, 3 laps with many short hills.

Climbs:
Le Gouvello (60 km) - 2,6 km long; 5,6% av. (last 800 meters have 10 %)
Bois de Toul er Roc'h (68) - 0,7 km; 10,3%
Mur de Bretagne (79) - 1,7 km; 7,6%
Krevily (83) - 1,3 km; 6,2%
Lanfains (99) - 2,8 km; 4,2%
Rue des Rochers (128) - 0,5 km; 7,4%
La Cadoire (136) - 0,7 km; 12,4%
Le Petit Couvran (138) - 0,8 km; 6,8%
La ville au Bedel (154) - 0,8 km; 8,9%
Rue du Moulin de Persas (161) - 0,8 km; 11,5%
La Cadoire (165) - 0,7 km; 12,4%
Le Petit Couvran (168) - 0,8 km; 6,8%
Viaduc du Gouédic (174) - 0,5 km; 13,5%
Bois Boissel (178) - 1,2 km; 7,3%
La ville au Bedel (182) - 0,8 km; 8,9%
La Cadoire (188) - 0,7 km; 12,4%
Viaduc du Gouédic (191) - 0,5 km; 13,5%
Bois Boissel (194) - 1,2 km; 7,3%
La ville au Bedel (198) - 0,8 km; 8,9%
La Cadoire (205) - 0,7 km; 12,4%
Rue de la Mardelle (208) - 0,5 km; 12%
Chemin des Courses - finish line (211) - 1 km; 4,5%

Lorient:

Saint-Brieuc:

 

[togo95]

GP Guingamp

Guingamp - Guingamp (showing 1 lap out of 10); 208 km

Climbs:
Maudez - 1,1 km; 3,3%
Coat Lucas - 0,7 km; 3,6%
Bois de Pommerit - 0.6 km; 4%
Pabu - 0,8 km; 3,9%
Rue Antoine Mazier - 0,8 km; 6,4%
Plouisy - 2 km; 3,7%

all ridden 10 times

Guingamp: