Race interference: Protests, Sabotage, and Assaults

[CyclistAbi]

@red_flanders

I assume that you are aware of protester demands and on why they are protesting. If you aren't then please educate yourself on the subject first but if you are, as i assume you aren't living under a rock, then i feel you demonstrated my point perfectly and thank you for doing that. I couldn't have done it better if i wanted to.

 

[red_flanders]

With due respect, you keep missing the point. Maybe it's due to the fact we're not allowed to talk about the elephant in the room. I don't know.
Reason why the police don't take a more "proactive" stance against protestors is it would violate fundamental human rights in a democratic society.
Your assertion of weakness betrays your fundamental point that you essentially believe these protests should not exist.
That is called fascism.
It would be nice if representatives of the team in question did the right thing and excuse themselves from the race. But if they don't, organizers should do it for them.
That's my answer to the OP's valid question.

With due respect, I’m not missing anything. Obviously it’s about the fact that politics are out of bounds. I mean, really. Come on.

Telling me what I believe is just unmitigated nonsense. Accusing me of fascism is completely out of bounds. I think you’ve lost perspective.

I have no issue with protest. I have an issue with interference with the event and the dangers. As I’ve said. Acting as if there’s no other way to protest seems disingenuous at best.

 

[GenericBoonenFan]

With due respect, you keep missing the point. Maybe it's due to the fact we're not allowed to talk about the elephant in the room. I don't know.
Reason why the police don't take a more "proactive" stance against protestors is it would violate fundamental human rights in a democratic society.
Your assertion of weakness betrays your fundamental point that you essentially believe these protests should not exist.
That is called fascism.
It would be nice if representatives of the team in question did the right thing and excuse themselves from the race. But if they don't, organizers should do it for them.
That's my answer to the OP's valid question.

It's absolutely acceptable in a democratic society to keep people from harming others or disturbing the peace.
Personally I believe in protest but I think the form of running in between riders during stages should indeed not exist because it's too big a risk for the idiots running on the road and the cyclists. I guess that makes me a fascist.
Non-violent protest alongside the road is all fine, but we've seen it escalate to jumping the barriers and encroaching on the road aswell.

I'm all in favour for banning people or teams for trampling human rights. But let's be consistent.... There are about 3 teams sponsored by very dubious regimes.

 

[aphronesis]

Invoking the police on mountain rides does stretch certain democratic/fascistic lines. A good majority of Citi Bike riders can dodge hostile pedestrians.

 

[red_flanders]

I find it telling that a suggestion of a more proactive approach to policing, framed as a question, where I fully admit I’m not an expert in the topic, could be framed as “fascism”. I think it’s an unfortunate indicator of the level of discourse. As if the umbrella of “proactive” would only include jack boots, batons, and violence. Incredible.

There is an huge set of actions included in proactive, like identifying hot spots, taking time to engage and warn the crowd, increasing numbers of police, negotiating with leaders, etc. I’m sure that barely grazes the surface of what an expert in these matters might suggest.

Violence against protesters is almost by definition “reactive”. But I guess calling my views fascism….well I won’t speculate. I don’t know why an otherwise intelligent person would stoop to such statements.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Then again we wouldn't be talking about it and nothing would need to be done, if protesters wouldn't represent any real issues. Somehow, over the years, it seem that they figured that out too. Anyway, that times are over and if some of you feel baton will fix it, it won't. At minimum only a bigger group of protestors will emerge, against baton. Meanwhile cycling as a mainstream sport straight to the trash.

So what will in my opinion happen is UCI will be forced to allow possibility of removal of a high risk factor from a cycling event. Note that this will likely include some future oppressing issues too, not just current issues.

So technically, protests emerge, organiser concludes high risk factor is involved, organiser can decide to remove high risk factor to de-escalate.

Teams will hence have a harder job, making sure they don't become a high risk factor, be more sensitive to any potential sportswashing.

And bottom line nobody in their right mind would organise a mainstream cycling events, on where they would be baton(ing) people by the road. It's just not worth it, it's cycling after all, is not worth it.

 

[the delgados]

It's absolutely acceptable in a democratic society to keep people from harming others or disturbing the peace.
Personally I believe in protest but I think the form of running in between riders during stages should indeed not exist because it's too big a risk for the idiots running on the road and the cyclists. I guess that makes me a fascist.
Non-violent protest alongside the road is all fine, but we've seen it escalate to jumping the barriers and encroaching on the road aswell.

I'm all in favour for banning people or teams for trampling human rights. But let's be consistent.... There are about 3 teams sponsored by very dubious regimes.

Your analogy and opposition of "idiots" running on the road does not make you a fascist. Your opposition of protests makes me question where you're coming from.
I completely agree with you about dubious regimes funding professional cycling teams. I wish this was a topic discussed more, especially considering the human rights abuses committed by certain countries.

 

[the delgados]

With due respect, I’m not missing anything. Obviously it’s about the fact that politics are out of bounds. I mean, really. Come on.

Telling me what I believe is just unmitigated nonsense. Accusing me of fascism is completely out of bounds. I think you’ve lost perspective.

I have no issue with protest. I have an issue with interference with the event and the dangers. As I’ve said. Acting as if there’s no other way to protest seems disingenuous at best.

Fair enough.

 

[aphronesis]

When police become the default answer to this situation, they could, by default be rendered as quasi fascistic. The OP and mods centered on the means of response as well. Not everyone shares them.

 

[Cookster15]

I wish this was a topic discussed more, especially considering the human rights abuses committed by certain countries.

If you want to discuss the topic further, this cycling forum isn't the place.

 

[Hugh Januss]

If you want to discuss the topic further, this cycling forum isn't the place.

You can not discuss how to control a protest without discussing what is being protested and how much bigger than sport that cause is. What do you say we just close this thread and go back to our little cycling lives.

 

[Netserk]

With due respect, you keep missing the point. Maybe it's due to the fact we're not allowed to talk about the elephant in the room. I don't know.
Reason why the police don't take a more "proactive" stance against protestors is it would violate fundamental human rights in a democratic society.
Your assertion of weakness betrays your fundamental point that you essentially believe these protests should not exist.
That is called fascism.
It would be nice if representatives of the team in question did the right thing and excuse themselves from the race. But if they don't, organizers should do it for them.
That's my answer to the OP's valid question.

The saddest lesson I've learned over the past 20 years is that violence works.

Maybe you're right, persistent organised violence against a peaceful group like a cycling team will work exactly as intended. Many just want to give in until it stops, siding with the organised violence. If only the victims would disappear, the conflict will end.

The sadness of the lesson is that it eventually gets learned by all sides.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

I mean, police is of course the default answer in questions of securing major events because it‘s their job anyway. People with extreme political positions not being allowed in executive positions is a step the UCI should consider but it‘s not something that can be realised within one or two days. I don‘t really see the problem being solved in the coming days.

 

[Red Rick]

When police become the default answer to this situation, they could, by default be rendered as quasi fascistic. The OP and mods centered on the means of response as well. Not everyone shares them.

Is this another one of these: "As long as enough people display normally intolerable behavior together it's okay and if you disagree with that you're just an *insert buzzword here*" take?

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

You can not discuss how to control a protest without discussing what is being protested ...

Disagree strongly. When races have been affected by farmers' protests, we have not seen people come here to vent their feelings on the European Union's agricultural policies. Those Stop Oil protesters did not lead to people being unable to restrain their opinions on global warming.

 

[Red Rick]

Disagree strongly. When races have been affected by farmers' protests, we have not seen people come here to vent their feelings on the European Union's agricultural policies. Those Stop Oil protesters did not lead to people being unable to restrain their opinions on global warming.

I think the fundamental difference tends to be the degree to which they're willing to escalate, and the reception on social media when it happens.

 

[scribers]

It’s a dangerous oversimplification to characterize protest as violence. When there are very few examples of just that. Because it opens a pathway in the spaces of minds for overreaction of power. Provacative displays of force, begets more violence.

Consider the root cause of the protest. And what cycling can do, if anything as Vingo would have you believe. Money is at the center of cycling and has a key role in solutions if managed properly. Where the sponsorship dollars comes from regularly and why is a needed topic of conversation.

 

[GenericBoonenFan]

Your analogy and opposition of "idiots" running on the road does not make you a fascist. Your opposition of protests makes me question where you're coming from.
I completely agree with you about dubious regimes funding professional cycling teams. I wish this was a topic discussed more, especially considering the human rights abuses committed by certain countries.

I quite clearly said I don't oppose protests, but I do oppose protests that endanger others or the protesters themselves.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

As moderator
C'mon guys: @Cookster15 and I are getting very bored of repeating the same rule reminders, and of deleting and sanctioning those who either ignor of somehow don't understand them..

Ask yourselves a couple of questions before you post anything here:

• Does it pertain to cycling?
• Can someone reply without revealing their political opinions?

If the answers are not both Yes , this is not the place to say it: take it to twitter.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

I struggle to see how some of the posts that are getting deleted are political

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I struggle to see how some of the posts that are getting deleted are political

Some are left as orphans because they only make sense as a response to other posts that are deleted, and so are deleted.

 

[RedheadDane]

Some are left as orphans because they only make sense as a response to other posts that are deleted, and so are deleted.

"Delete the orphans", that sounds a bit harsh...

 

[aphronesis]

Is this another one of these: "As long as enough people display normally intolerable behavior together it's okay and if you disagree with that you're just an *insert buzzword here*" take?

I don’t think so. Protest is almost inherently unacceptable and incomprehensible for some people. It’s always potentially difficult to discuss and the history of this forum is no exception. On its face I wouldn’t necessarily make a value judgment between say protesters at a cycling event who are unnecessarily disruptive to the riders themselves and fans who find the activity misguided, inappropriate, etc. Bracketing the motivation for the protest, it’s not hard to see the fans’ position.

 

[GenericBoonenFan]

Let's hope Romo isn't hurt and/or the quickstip rider...

 

[RedheadDane]

Let's hope Romo isn't hurt and/or the quickstip rider...

I read that as "Remco", and I thought I was in the ToB thread, and I was wondering what the heck happened...