Radioshack Crying after Lombardia snub

[indurain666]

Stay calm man. Seriously because you are making yourself look a total **** with posts like that.

+1, just ignore the message whenever you read "Cobblestoned", "Polish", "Flicker" et al

RS exclusion is reasonable. I don't see their big deal, they had not real contenders, absolutely nothing to offer to the race. Now they are probably going to be including a smaller local team which is great for local pro racers.

 

[flicker]

You have an odd scale to measure big races and "things" by. You might want to read up on the importance and prestige of the Lombardia thing, if it has indeed passed you by.

Guess what the missing 5th Monument is in this sequence: Milan-Sanremo, Ronde van Vlaanderen, Paris-Roubaix, Liege-Bastogne-Liege, ......... ?

If Radioshack was even considering sending RadioRubbish to this race (-if-), they have no place in cycling full stop.

Jees, do you mean Chris Horner is pack fodder in a race like Lombardia. I swear, the holier than though attitude towards anything American here is prejuidical.
In Jan. 2009 W retired. In Jul.2010 Lance retired. Please cut us Americans some slack. As they said in Star Trek; Scottie: " Capt. I'm given it everything I've got."

 

[patrick767]

Who was RS planning to send to Lombardia? If you dismiss guys like Horner, Leipheimer, and Kloden as packfill, you're delusional.

I'm really not caring for how heavy the role of politics in tour invites appears to be these days. Has it always been that bad? The Vuelta snub was absurd and their claim that RS wouldn't be competitive enough was blatant bullsh**. RS has a strong team, considerably stronger than many teams actually at this year's Vuelta. That snub and Lombardia reek of politics taking precedence over the strength of the teams. Sad.

 

[kurtinsc]

You have an odd scale to measure big races and "things" by. You might want to read up on the importance and prestige of the Lombardia thing, if it has indeed passed you by.

Guess what the missing 5th Monument is in this sequence: Milan-Sanremo, Ronde van Vlaanderen, Paris-Roubaix, Liege-Bastogne-Liege, ......... ?

If Radioshack was even considering sending RadioRubbish to this race (-if-), they have no place in cycling full stop.

I assume Brajkovic and Horner would certainly have been going. Brajkovic has a 2nd place finish in Lombardia. Horner has a couple of Lombardia top 10's and was 8th in Liege this year.

Who exactly is NOT "RadioRubbish" in your eyes? I'm confused as to who has to be at a race for people to consider it to be an "A" squad for Radio Shack.

 

[El Pistolero]

Then again HTC may have contacted the Giro organisers privately to discuss the calendar conflict with California and their commercial need to attend it.

TRS's announcement that they'd skip the Giro in favour of California was a crude way of handling the situation.

Which would you prefer of a non show at your party, a discrete phone call or to hear it on the grapevine?

They rode the ToC in preparation for the Tour de France. The organisers know fully well that TRS was build for pretty much the Tour only so wouldn't even make sense to enter someone "big" in the Giro. TdF >>>> Giro in terms of prestige. They should know that already by now.

 

[La Pandera]

I am a big Kloden fan so I may be biased.

The Shack had a much poorer TDF then they'd hoped. But they still finished with 3 riders in the top 20 overall and were about the 3rd strongest team in the mountains. None of their riders were going to win the Vuelta (but how many teams have a legitimate contender?), but how could the Tour Of Spain not include them? I read that Johan was sending Levi, Andreas and Chris. Maybe Braijkovic too. Wouldn't that be one of the best teams at the Vuelta?

Why should the hatred for Lance and Johan negatively effect the careers of others?

And what is the problem with skipping the Giro and focussing 100% on the TDF?

There are some teams that should be automatically in big races if they choose to be, and even without Lance, Radioshack are one of them.

As for this Lombardia thing, maybe they were going to send a rubbish team and if so it's fair enough that they're not included.

If I recall correctly, all of Astana's (2009) primary threats exited the Vuelta early in 2009. Horner due to a crash but the rest just bailed early. They were a non-factor. Possibly the Vuelta organizers decided that regardless of Bruyneel's promises of who he was sending, they didn't trust their commitment to actually finish the event and at the minimum, compete.

 

[La Pandera]

Lol. Antigua, Costa Rica, Bahrain - all nice places but in fairness, not exactly the cycling heartland, are they?

Isn't one of the purposes of sponsoring a cycling team to give your company exposure, possibly in markets that you hope to expand into? Also with the advent of the internet, their products are available to any and all who have a computer, regardless of where they are. All it takes is for one to be aware that your brand exists.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Jees, do you mean Chris Horner is pack fodder in a race like Lombardia. I swear, the holier than though attitude towards anything American here is prejuidical.

I assume Brajkovic and Horner would certainly have been going. Brajkovic has a 2nd place finish in Lombardia. Horner has a couple of Lombardia top 10's and was 8th in Liege this year. Who exactly is NOT "RadioRubbish" in your eyes? I'm confused as to who has to be at a race for people to consider it to be an "A" squad for Radio Shack.

Holier than thou?

I think you are so irritated that you stopped reading what people actually write when they mention RadioShack. Granted, I am not overly enamoured with the team, as such, but for totally different reasons, and not without my reasons. But I write with more shades of grey than you appear to pick up. It's probably because English might well be your first, and is only my second.

I'll bold the important bit, so important I repeated it as I already assumed that some people here would miss it otherwise:

If Radioshack was even considering sending RadioRubbish to this race (-if-), they have no place in cycling full stop.

That last bit was an afterthought to the rest of my post, and in response to earlier suggestions that RadioShack would send a poor team to an important race. [they have done it before, so it's not a daft presumption, but it is a presumption nevertheless]. And since they have done it before, my shorthand is sending "RadioRubbish" instead of their best -or reasonably best and keen to race- "A-Team" to races that really deserved better.

Now if you read the other long post here, where I elaborate on my pov to the poster I was talking with, you'll see that my main point is completely different, and bypasses the whole "A-squad" debate.

Again, I even think that RadioShack might well - in all likelihood - field a stronger team, on paper, than other teams that an organiser of a particluat race prefers. Hence my last bit in the 2nd post. That "worth to a race" is subjective from an organiser point of view, smaller (local) teams might be far far more attractive to them than a superior RadioShack squad.

Now we can argue about my stances, but it would help if you read all the words.

You are right I dislike much about the team. You are wrong when you think I "hate" all riders on it, etc. I guess we disagree a bit about "how strong" RadioShack actually is as a team, but that's neither here nor there.

I do "hate" their sense of entitlement though, as these races are so much older, and bigger, than Team RadioShack is, and ever will be. Lance and his teams, over the years, have treated much of the calendar with disdain, when he could have been a real global promoter of cycling (as a whole). He never stepped up the plate (did I not even write rightly or wrongly earlier - acknowledging there are conflicting pov on it?).

If there is entitlement, I think they more than most other teams are the last one to claim "tits owed to them" to be automatically included, now it does suit them. Being so big that you ought to be acknowledged is a 2-way street. Lance's teams decided for years to take it as it suited them. I think these organisers can thus do exactly the same when it comes to Team Radioshack.

How good their A-Squad is doesn't even come into it. Nor if they actually would/could field it. Or if they are "American".

That's my pov. A little less black and white than "hate" or "love", so it requires a bit more work to process, I guess.


And FYI, I have the same feeling when it comes to teams I like, like Vacansoleil. Although I certainly think they have earned their "entitlement" to certain races, I still think that an organiser's right to pick the teams they prefer trumps that. To my annoyance and irritation.

 

[kurtinsc]

Holier than thou?

I think you are so irritated that you stopped reading what people actually write when they mention RadioShack. Granted, I am not overly enamoured with the team, as such, but for totally different reasons, and not without my reasons. But I write with more shades of grey than you appear to pick up. It's probably because English might well be your first, and is only my second.

I'll bold the important bit, so important I repeated it as I already assumed that some people here would miss it otherwise:



That last bit was an afterthought to the rest of my post, and in response to earlier suggestions that RadioShack would send a poor team to an important race. [they have done it before, so it's not a daft presumption, but it is a presumption nevertheless]. And since they have done it before, my shorthand is sending "RadioRubbish" instead of their best -or reasonably best and keen to race- "A-Team" to races that really deserved better.

Now if you read the other long post here, where I elaborate on my pov to the poster I was talking with, you'll see that my main point is completely different, and bypasses the whole "A-squad" debate.

Again, I even think that RadioShack might well - in all likelihood - field a stronger team, on paper, than other teams that an organiser of a particluat race prefers. Hence my last bit in the 2nd post. That "worth to a race" is subjective from an organiser point of view, smaller (local) teams might be far far more attractive to them than a superior RadioShack squad.

Now we can argue about my stances, but it would help if you read all the words.

You are right I dislike much about the team. You are wrong when you think I "hate" all riders on it, etc. I guess we disagree a bit about "how strong" RadioShack actually is as a team, but that's neither here nor there.

I do "hate" their sense of entitlement though, as these races are so much older, and bigger, than Team RadioShack is, and ever will be. Lance and his teams, over the years, have treated much of the calendar with disdain, when he could have been a real global promoter of cycling (as a whole). He never stepped up the plate (did I not even write rightly or wrongly earlier - acknowledging there are conflicting pov on it?).

If there is entitlement, I think they more than most other teams are the last one to claim "tits owed to them" to be automatically included, now it does suit them. Being so big that you ought to be acknowledged is a 2-way street. Lance's teams decided for years to take it as it suited them. I think these organisers can thus do exactly the same when it comes to Team Radioshack.

How good their A-Squad is doesn't even come into it. Nor if they actually would/could field it. Or if they are "American".

That's my pov. A little less black and white than "hate" or "love", so it requires a bit more work to process, I guess.


And FYI, I have the same feeling when it comes to teams I like, like Vacansoleil. Although I certainly think they have earned their "entitlement" to certain races, I still think that an organiser's right to pick the teams they prefer trumps that. To my annoyance and irritation.

What major races have Radio Shack sent a "B" squad to? Keep in mind they don't have a real sprinter (especially not early in the year when Steegmans went down).

I'm not directing this at you per se... but rather at the idea that RS is sending crappy teams to important races. I'm just not seeing that.

Yeah, they didn't have a strong team at the cobbled classics or at MSR... but I'm not sure who they could have sent instead that would have significantly improved their squad. Their weaknesses in those races came from their team lacking that particular type of rider... not that they chose to send substandard team members.

I really do want to know what major races RS entered where they sent a substandard team. They sent either Levi, Kloden or Armstrong to the majority of the major stage races they entered... the exceptions being the Dauphine Libere (which a RS rider won), Romandie (6th and 7th in the GC) and Poland (if that counts... 10th in GC).

They may not have sent big names to races like MSR, P-R, Hamburg/Vattenfall and other races that didn't suit their riders... but they didn't have anyone to compete there. I'm not sure what the point would be to have a stage racer with a name riding in races totally unsuited to their skills.

Look, I have no problem with organizers not wanting to invite Radioshack. But I also see the point that Radioshack seems to have squads that would compete better in these races then teams who were invited.

 

[thehog]

Again, I even think that RadioShack might well - in all likelihood - field a stronger team, on paper, than other teams that an organiser of a particluat race prefers. Hence my last bit in the 2nd post. That "worth to a race" is subjective from an organiser point of view, smaller (local) teams might be far far more attractive to them than a superior RadioShack squad.

This I agree with the most. Its ok for Bruyneel to say they want to do ToC over the Giro because over its American sponsors. So I see the same for RCS at Lombardy. They would much prefer to promote local sponsors and industries over an American electronics country. Its makes perfect sense and reinforced by the fact Radioshack wouldn’t send real squad if entered.

Now if RS hired Floyd this year he would have raced!

 

[MTDave]

How much influence does the sponsor have on which races a team focuses on? I would guess they are pretty involved in how their sponsorship money gets spent to maximize their brand name. That being said, if you are going to sponsor a cycling team it sure seems like you would want to at the very least have a presence in the grand tours and the monuments, finances allowing.

Ignoring all the personalities on the team for a minute, I bet Radioshack the sponsor sure wants to have a team invited to as many events as possible. Just my opinion and I know there is a lot more going on here that I don't understand.

I sure am enjoying watching the Vuelta for the first time and learning about new teams with riders whose names I can't pronounce. I think it's great to see the local boys perform!

 

[flicker]

This I agree with the most. Its ok for Bruyneel to say they want to do ToC over the Giro because over its American sponsors. So I see the same for RCS at Lombardy. They would much prefer to promote local sponsors and industries over an American electronics country. Its makes perfect sense and reinforced by the fact Radioshack wouldn’t send real squad if entered.

Now if RS hired Floyd this year he would have raced!

In my best valley girl voice,













" Whatever!"

 

[Francois the Postman]

What major races have Radio Shack sent a "B" squad to? Keep in mind they don't have a real sprinter (especially not early in the year when Steegmans went down).

I'm not directing this at you per se... but rather at the idea that RS is sending crappy teams to important races. I'm just not seeing that.

Yeah, they didn't have a strong team at the cobbled classics or at MSR... but I'm not sure who they could have sent instead that would have significantly improved their squad. Their weaknesses in those races came from their team lacking that particular type of rider... not that they chose to send substandard team members.

I really do want to know what major races RS entered where they sent a substandard team. They sent either Levi, Kloden or Armstrong to the majority of the major stage races they entered... the exceptions being the Dauphine Libere (which a RS rider won), Romandie (6th and 7th in the GC) and Poland (if that counts... 10th in GC).

They may not have sent big names to races like MSR, P-R, Hamburg/Vattenfall and other races that didn't suit their riders... but they didn't have anyone to compete there. I'm not sure what the point would be to have a stage racer with a name riding in races totally unsuited to their skills.

Look, I have no problem with organizers not wanting to invite Radioshack. But I also see the point that Radioshack seems to have squads that would compete better in these races then teams who were invited.

But some of these squads' attendances are apparently valued a lot higher locally by organisers than that of RadioSquad. That says it all. What you value is not what they value. Or I value, for what it is worth.

kurtinsc, as I said and presumed, we probably really disagree about the actual current strength and participation value of some of the riders you mentioned. And of some of the "achievements".

You also kinda contradict yourself by saying that Radioshack should be entitled to enter based on the Team's worth, and then give a list of races they actually can't even field a real candidate for, even if they wanted. "Their best", even by your own measurements then, was in those cases "not an A-Team". Any squad that then also leaves out a few "second best" riders, or has a few apples in there that ride like lemons because they can't be bothered, colossal appearance fee notwithstanding, is, to me, "Rubbish".

RS exists for one thing thing only.

Not being able to send better riders to a whole range of races was due to a decision made by RS, not for lack of funds, or some act of god. They might have good private reasons for that, but that is my point: they really can't be bothered with mayor parts of the calendar as they exist for one reason only. And that mission was a failure to boot.

We will not agree on the actual additional value that RS brought to the races they went "all out on", or the real value of those GC rankings. We also read their Tour achievement this year very differently. And that is, as it has always been, their raison d'etre.

I judge RadioShack's particpation in cycling this year as utterly inconsequential. And last year mostly inconsequential (especially if you take the Tour and ToC out - since we are talking about "their entry into all these other races"). Largely due to a focus on, and core of, riders that are beyond it, or were sacrificed for those already over the hill (and not in a good way).

But - my main argument all along - they could easily contract, and field, a wider, more broadly motivated field, and even better riders, if they wanted to. They didn't. And the LA/Bruyneel brands have done so for years. I can't fault any organiser for treating any feeling of entitlement to show up now, with the howls of laughter it deserves.

A pity for the other and younger riders that get caught up in it, but talk to the guys on, and sponsors of Vacansoleil first, about being treated a bit unfairly based on actual attitude and results first, will you? - RadioShack hasn't actually been given a rough Pro Tour ride since it came into being - You know what you sign up for, you know the risks.

Which has been my (repeated ad nauseum) point underlying all my posts here. Karma is a *****.

The actual relative quality of squad is a complete side street to this, but since you avoid my main point, I'm not gonna go knee-deep into arguing a trivial case that I only made in passing.

I will leave it that you obviously value RS differently. I have no problem with that. Nothing will change either one's mind, so I will just take note of it, and pass up on the inevitable exercise in reading the same things very differently. As some of the things you list above as achievements, I would actually want to highlight as arguments about their fielding failures. They illustrate serious A-Squad shortcomings to me, even in races they target. In capital letters. We won't agree on much here, I fear.

 

[benpounder]

I do "hate" their sense of entitlement though, as these races are so much older, and bigger, than Team RadioShack is, and ever will be. Lance and his teams, over the years, have treated much of the calendar with disdain, when he could have been a real global promoter of cycling (as a whole). He never stepped up the plate (did I not even write rightly or wrongly earlier - acknowledging there are conflicting pov on it?).

All major races are "bigger" than the teams competing in them - if one takes the narrow view that the title sponsor "makes" the team. Remember Ibenesto (Illes Baleras - Caisse d'Epargne); , Team Teleckom (T-Mobile - Team HighRoad - Team Columbia); Memory Card-Jack&Jones (CSC-Tiscali - Team CSC - Team CSC Saxo Bank - Team Saxo Bank - Team Saxo Bank-SunGard); or Tonissteiner-Lotto-Mavic-Pecotex (Lotto - Lotto-Domo - Omega Pharma - Omega Pharma Predictor - Omega Pharma Silence - Omega Pharma-Lotto).

USPostal (Discovery - Astana - TRS) is hardly a young or small squad. Furthermore, looking at the updated UCI points list, one finds that RadioShack trails only Astana in team standings. Secondly, while you may choose to call it "distain", LA and team developed a myopic focus on winning the TdF. Consequently, they chose quite carefully what races to target for training and testing. And of not just LA but for many of the riders expected to support LA in July. I choose to think of that as viewing those races that they did not participate in (with the A-Team) as less beneficial for their aim. And for a primarily US team, the sponsors, management and top riders want the biggest bang for the buck. Remembering that road cycling is well down the list of sports that North American residents pay attention to. And if you find this lamentable (I'd say merely a result of pro cycling structure for the past two decades), then you would have to find fault with virtually all pro teams and top riders as well.

You may not like it that LA did not became a "real global promoter", but that is merely your wishes for what someone else ought to have done. It is like getting mad at Tiger Woods for focusing on his golf game (and his harum) rather that jetting around the world to promote golf. Whick is kind of a narrow-sighted and selfish POV IMO, for by winning so much, both necessarily brought in many new spectators/fans.

 

[ultimobici]

They rode the ToC in preparation for the Tour de France. The organisers know fully well that TRS was build for pretty much the Tour only so wouldn't even make sense to enter someone "big" in the Giro. TdF >>>> Giro in terms of prestige. They should know that already by now.

It's not the fact that they opted not to ride the Giro in favour of California, rather the manner in which they chose to tell the world that they weren't riding. It came across as a snub from TRS. Columbia, Saxo-Bank, Cervelo, BMC & Garmin all managed to field teams at both races and race at both. Yet TRS felt they couldn't.

Columbia rode in 2009 as did LA with Astana. But contrast the Giro's experience of the two. LA was paid €Xm start money, *****ed about the conditions & stirred up a semi-strike in Milan. Come 2010 TRS announce they're not coming to the Giro. Columbia won the first Maglia Rosa, held it for a couple of days and went away after three further stages won by Cavendish. No argy-bargy from Cav or the team about conditions, no extra expense for star riders and finally no pretentious announcements that Columbia would not ride the Giro in 2010. They did announce that Cav would ride the Tour of California rather than the Giro, but when you consider the 2010 course and Cavendish's strengths it's perfectly understandable.

But, bottom line, it's down to the way in which each team handled it.

 

[ultimobici]

You may not like it that LA did not became a "real global promoter", but that is merely your wishes for what someone else ought to have done. It is like getting mad at Tiger Woods for focusing on his golf game (and his harum) rather that jetting around the world to promote golf. Whick is kind of a narrow-sighted and selfish POV IMO, for by winning so much, both necessarily brought in many new spectators/fans.

Not an true comparison.

As far as I am aware, TW has not stated that he is here for anything other than winning golf tournaments. LA's stated aims were to win an 8th Tour and t raise the global awareness of cancer. Therefore he put the expectation out there.

 

[Francois the Postman]

All major races are "bigger" than the teams competing in them

Hey, we agree.

USPostal (Discovery - Astana - TRS) is hardly a young or small squad. Furthermore, looking at the updated UCI points list, one finds that RadioShack trails only Astana in team standings.

We disagree about the value of that particular rating system. I totally ignore it, to be frank.

Secondly, while you may choose to call it "distain", LA and team developed a myopic focus on winning the TdF. Consequently, they chose quite carefully what races to target for training and testing. And of not just LA but for many of the riders expected to support LA in July. I choose to think of that as viewing those races that they did not participate in (with the A-Team) as less beneficial for their aim.

Accept. As I said frequently here, I can see the pov from which that makes sense. But then don't moan when promoters also pick and mix to what suits them. That's hypocritical. And why I argue that even if entitlement exists (I believe it does not beyond prior agreements), they in particular have lost it as a consequence of that particular attitude.

So yes.

BUT where the contempt comes in: they also added a constant story that "only" this race really mattered, or that it only had any worth if they were in. In other words, they saw and treated all the other races as seriously inferior. I was also thinking about how they talked about other riders, other races, the "worth" of achievements in other races, etc. They were very successful in promoting that particular perception globally. Which is contemptuous to cycling's true nature, history and heritage. [It was not just them peddling that warped angle, but they were instrumental in it].

And for a primarily US team, the sponsors, management and top riders want the biggest bang for the buck. Remembering that road cycling is well down the list of sports that North American residents pay attention to. And if you find this lamentable (I'd say merely a result of pro cycling structure for the past two decades), then you would have to find fault with virtually all pro teams and top riders as well.

No, I have no problem with that at all. I find that natural. Why do you think I keep banging on about local relative worth? Do you think I make an exception for Americans?

I do however have a problem with people who see Lance as someone who promotes the totality of cycling. And I do have a problem when Lance himself behaves as if he embodies cycling. He embodies a small part of it, in only a small period in a very long history. And which much more to come. That, however, is not his attitude, and that, I do see as a missed opportunity. I don't think he has to behave so. But I can judge what his actual behaviour means to me, or how I see it.

If I judged him as an ambassador for the sport, I think he failed the sport more than he helped it. Given the platform and opportunity that he had, and the way he filled it in. That is a judgement right now. And this is the high mark. It might well stay that way, I don't know. And I won't go into what might or might not be the appendix to what-Lance-did-for-pro-cycling that lies ahead of us. But even now, as an ambassador, to me, he failed. That is not the same as saying that he hasn't contributed at all. It is based on my subjective potential vs outcome yardstick. And it's mine. Hand's off.

You may not like it that LA did not became a "real global promoter", but that is merely your wishes for what someone else ought to have done. It is like getting mad at Tiger Woods for focusing on his golf game (and his harum) rather that jetting around the world to promote golf.

Which is why I am not mad at LA for not doing that. What is it with people always taking words and then running from one extreme to another? I can lament it and not blame him for that at the same time. Try it one day. It is possible. Even on the internet.

I do "blame" him for pretending he has actually embodies that very thing, or basking in the glow of people treating him as such, rather than pointing out that that is stretching it a bit. But that is blaming him for taking false credit (but mostly being given much inflated credit). Which he does. I'm not blaming him for not doing it my preferred way. Let alone being angry about it.

Whick is kind of a narrow-sighted and selfish POV IMO, for by winning so much, both necessarily brought in many new spectators/fans.

I agree that LA brought people to the sport. The vast majority won't be keepers, but a lot will be. But I'm not sure if the keepers amongst them wouldn't have been brought in over time anyway. Media and consumption has changed a lot too. And it will be true for some parts of the world more than others too.

Narrow-sighted and selfish POV?

I think you are misreading more than you nail, to be frank.


Now about that appendix...

 

[Cobblestoned]

In my best valley girl voice,













" Whatever!"

"Trevor"

 

[kurtinsc]

But some of these squads' attendances are apparently valued a lot higher locally by organisers than that of RadioSquad. That says it all. What you value is not what they value. Or I value, for what it is worth.

kurtinsc, as I said and presumed, we probably really disagree about the actual current strength and participation value of some of the riders you mentioned. And of some of the "achievements".

You also kinda contradict yourself by saying that Radioshack should be entitled to enter based on the Team's worth, and then give a list of races they actually can't even field a real candidate for, even if they wanted. "Their best", even by your own measurements then, was in those cases "not an A-Team". Any squad that then also leaves out a few "second best" riders, or has a few apples in there that ride like lemons because they can't be bothered, colossal appearance fee notwithstanding, is, to me, "Rubbish".

RS exists for one thing thing only.

Not being able to send better riders to a whole range of races was due to a decision made by RS, not for lack of funds, or some act of god. They might have good private reasons for that, but that is my point: they really can't be bothered with mayor parts of the calendar as they exist for one reason only. And that mission was a failure to boot.

We will not agree on the actual additional value that RS brought to the races they went "all out on", or the real value of those GC rankings. We also read their Tour achievement this year very differently. And that is, as it has always been, their raison d'etre.

I judge RadioShack's particpation in cycling this year as utterly inconsequential. And last year mostly inconsequential (especially if you take the Tour and ToC out - since we are talking about "their entry into all these other races"). Largely due to a focus on, and core of, riders that are beyond it, or were sacrificed for those already over the hill (and not in a good way).

But - my main argument all along - they could easily contract, and field, a wider, more broadly motivated field, and even better riders, if they wanted to. They didn't. And the LA/Bruyneel brands have done so for years. I can't fault any organiser for treating any feeling of entitlement to show up now, with the howls of laughter it deserves.

A pity for the other and younger riders that get caught up in it, but talk to the guys on, and sponsors of Vacansoleil first, about being treated a bit unfairly based on actual attitude and results first, will you? - RadioShack hasn't actually been given a rough Pro Tour ride since it came into being - You know what you sign up for, you know the risks.

Which has been my (repeated ad nauseum) point underlying all my posts here. Karma is a *****.

The actual relative quality of squad is a complete side street to this, but since you avoid my main point, I'm not gonna go knee-deep into arguing a trivial case that I only made in passing.

I will leave it that you obviously value RS differently. I have no problem with that. Nothing will change either one's mind, so I will just take note of it, and pass up on the inevitable exercise in reading the same things very differently. As some of the things you list above as achievements, I would actually want to highlight as arguments about their fielding failures. They illustrate serious A-Squad shortcomings to me, even in races they target. In capital letters. We won't agree on much here, I fear.

Look, if you want to claim their team isn't built very well, I'm not going to argue that much.

It's built primarily for stage races, with a secondary focus on hilly classics (more by accident then intent). That's it. No real sprinting, flat or cobbled riders.

But that really isn't what I'm asking/arguing. Everyone seems to suggest that the reason they weren't invited to the Vuelta and Lombardia is that they weren't going to send their "A" team or their best guys (or as you put it, the "RadioRubbish").

I'm looking for evidence of this, and asking what riders being present mean that they aren't sending "RadioRubbish".

Is it just Armstrong? Leipheimer and Kloden too? Horner? Brajkovic?

Exactly what races did Radio Shack send an inadequate squad to... and who could they have sent instead that would have made their squad adequate?


I have no problem with them being left out. I'm sure the race organizers had their reasons... from disliking Bruyneel to not wanting to be associated with Armstrong's of the bike issues to prefering local teams. But the idea that the reason was primarily them not sending a competitive team (for a stage race or hilly classic) just doesn't strike true for me. I'm open to the idea... but it really doesn't look like they've done that much if at all this year. They may not have performed up to expectation in many races, but it doesn't seem like it was because of not sending their "A" team.

 

[Dutchsmurf]

USPostal (Discovery - Astana - TRS) is hardly a young or small squad. Furthermore, looking at the updated UCI points list, one finds that RadioShack trails only Astana in team standings.

They are 10th actually... And that is before taking into account how bad that point system actually is.

 

[kurtinsc]

They are 10th actually... And that is before taking into account how bad that point system actually is.

They're 6th in the CQ team rankings (though I have no idea how those are calculated). They are 7th in the "cycling rankings" formula for the year (No idea if it's any good).

Is there a better ranking to look at?

I think Radioshack has done better looking at all races then just Pro-Tour events. They didn't ride the Giro, Vuelta, T-A or Lombardia. They have no top level sprinters/flat riders/cobbled riders which means they got very little from MSR, Vattenfall, Eneco, Ouest-France, Paris-Roubaix, Gent-Wevelgem, RVV, and to some extent the TDU.

So they didn't take part in 2 of the 3 events that give out the most UCI points, and had no chance or virtually no chance of getting much from 12 of the 26 events.

The stage-race focus of their team lends itself to ranking better where they can ride lesser stage races to bolster their point count instead of only being able to get points in half the races that score UCI points.

 

[ultimobici]

They're 6th in the CQ team rankings (though I have no idea how those are calculated). They are 7th in the "cycling rankings" formula for the year (No idea if it's any good).

Is there a better ranking to look at?

I think Radioshack has done better looking at all races then just Pro-Tour events. They didn't ride the Giro, Vuelta, T-A or Lombardia. They have no top level sprinters/flat riders/cobbled riders which means they got very little from MSR, Vattenfall, Eneco, Ouest-France, Paris-Roubaix, Gent-Wevelgem, RVV, and to some extent the TDU.

So they didn't take part in 2 of the 3 events that give out the most UCI points, and had no chance or virtually no chance of getting much from 12 of the 26 events.

The stage-race focus of their team lends itself to ranking better where they can ride lesser stage races to bolster their point count instead of only being able to get points in half the races that score UCI points.

IIRC the points system used ages the individual riders totals. So 2009 points still have some weight. Otherwise RS would be way way down the list based on their 2010 results.

 

[La Pandera]

USPostal (Discovery - Astana - TRS) is hardly a young or small squad. Furthermore, looking at the updated UCI points list, one finds that RadioShack trails only Astana in team standings.

This link indicates they're only ranked 10th with little prospects of improving on that ranking.

While many may think that their exclusion from the Vuelta and Lombardia is unfair, their stunt at the end of the Tour, ignoring normal protocol and just showing up with the entire team in unapproved kits when a simple proper formal request to the race organizers/UCI would've avoided the drama, along with the cloak of furthering a message as their foundation while at the same time their figurehead requesting $1 million plus appearance fees really doesn't endear them to anyone but those followers that have on blinders.

The parcours for this Vuelta was not favorable to riders like Kloden and Leipheimer and the liklihood that they would've pulled out early was quite high especially with neither having any WC ambitions. Horner at his age would've been toast leaving only Brajkovic who is still unproven in the grand tours. Does anyone honestly see Leipheimer and Kloden riding 3 weeks at the service of Brajkovic? Kloden is loyal but there are limits and Leipheimer really IMO is not the faithful domestique type. I say this because I can count on one hand the times I recall him breaking the wind for anyone. His normal position is tucked in the draft, limiting his losses, not riding on the front setting tempo for his team capo.

 

[Cobblestoned]

This link indicates they're only ranked 10th with little prospects of improving on that ranking.

While many may think that their exclusion from the Vuelta and Lombardia is unfair, their stunt at the end of the Tour, ignoring normal protocol and just showing up with the entire team in unapproved kits when a simple proper formal request to the race organizers/UCI would've avoided the drama, along with the cloak of furthering a message as their foundation while at the same time their figurehead requesting $1 million plus appearance fees really doesn't endear them to anyone but those followers that have on blinders.

The parcours for this Vuelta was not favorable to riders like Kloden and Leipheimer and the liklihood that they would've pulled out early was quite high especially with neither having any WC ambitions. Horner at his age would've been toast leaving only Brajkovic who is still unproven in the grand tours. Does anyone honestly see Leipheimer and Kloden riding 3 weeks at the service of Brajkovic? Kloden is loyal but there are limits and Leipheimer really IMO is not the faithful domestique type. I say this because I can count on one hand the times I recall him breaking the wind for anyone. His normal position is tucked in the draft, limiting his losses, not riding on the front setting tempo for his team capo.

This is the longest sentence I ever read in a forum. Congrats to that, but doesn't make your post any better. It doesn't make anys sense what you write in the sporting aspect.
PLEASE take of YOUR blinders.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The parcours for this Vuelta was not favorable to riders like Kloden and Leipheimer and the liklihood that they would've pulled out early was quite high especially with neither having any WC ambitions. Horner at his age would've been toast leaving only Brajkovic who is still unproven in the grand tours. Does anyone honestly see Leipheimer and Kloden riding 3 weeks at the service of Brajkovic? Kloden is loyal but there are limits and Leipheimer really IMO is not the faithful domestique type. I say this because I can count on one hand the times I recall him breaking the wind for anyone. His normal position is tucked in the draft, limiting his losses, not riding on the front setting tempo for his team capo.

After last year, Leipheimer and Klöden dropped out before the start, and Zubeldia rolled around without a care in the world for a 14th-place finish. I remember two attacks by Astana riders in the entire race and both of them were Vino.

The other problem is not about what constitutes an 'A'-rider but what constitutes an 'A'-rider racing.

Look at the six teams who got the Wildcard invites to the Vuelta. Only one can I find any question about choosing over Radioshack.

- Team Katyusha: not invited to the 2009 Vuelta - could be an agreement. Also have a Spanish GC contender who's wearing the maillot rojo right now.
- Cervélo Test Team: led by Spanish GT contender supported by Spanish GT contender. Also have a rider who was top 10 last year in the team.
- Garmin-Transitions: won 3 stages of the race last year and are well-established.
- Xacobeo-Galicia: are Spanish, have a Spanish GT contender, and enliven every mountain stage.
- Andalucía-Caja Sur: are Spanish, and are always willing to get into those week 1 breaks and bring a bit of colour to long flat stages in the south of Spain that can otherwise get quite dull.
- Team Sky: the only question mark.

Why were Team Sky invited over Radioshack? There are a multitude of reasons, and we can more than likely reject Guillén's claim that it's to do with the quality of the team. No, part of this is likely to do with a number of factors:
- even before the season, Team Sky were talking about having every rider do a Grand Tour. The Vuelta may not have been front and centre in their gumf, but they acknowledged the race. Dave Brailsford met and talked with all three organisers before the season. Javier Guillén was made to feel like Team Sky cared about the Vuelta.
- while this was going on, Radioshack were carefully constructing an identity that suggested that California and the Tour were all that mattered. The first time the Vuelta was even mentioned was when Bruyneel claimed it was one of their season's goals after news of their non-invite came out. While Guillén was being made to think Team Sky cared about his race, he was being made to feel like Bruyneel and his cohorts didn't.
- During May, a whole bunch of stuff came out into public. We, and by extension Guillén, had no idea what kind of pace these investigations would be carried out, and there was a chance that, come September, Radioshack would be personae non grata.
- Also during May, Team Sky raced at the Giro d'Italia, won a stage, held the maglia rosa, and were visible. Steve Cummings in particular made it his mission to get in several breaks. This may have made Guillén feel that Sky were a team who would animate the race; happy with the list of GC contenders he felt he had onboard, he could be happy with having Sky to cover all bases. His experience with Astana in 2009 could not have helped Radioshack's cause either.