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Random French guys ripping up the Tour

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Benotti69 said:
Until there is smoke? This is cycling, there is smoke everywhere on every team. The UCI hasn't changed in case you haven't noticed. The federations are still the same.

That you were fooled so many times, does not surprise me :rolleyes:
You make my very point: UCI and Federations' 'efforts' have proven their ineffectiveness at best, complicity at worst. Seeing Vino by the podium today gave me intestinal moods. Thinking that he is allowed to be anywhere near the sport or even worse mentor 20-25 year-old kids shows how rotten the system is. What works is when governments (regardless of the underlying motive of the politicians), with police and justice resources, take action. And when media, instead of kissing axes, digs (i.e. l'Equipe, le Canard Enchaine). That's the only way.

BTW: all things being equal, I'd rather be fooled than accuse an innocent ;).

PS: I was never a pro, but was extensively tested in the late 80's, early 90's and I may still have a B sample in a freezer of the infamous laboratory in Chatenay Malabry. Dope free :). If stored by year, in alphabetical order, it sits right by Mr 60%'s :eek:
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Tonton said:
You make my very point: UCI and Federations' 'efforts' have proven their ineffectiveness at best, complicity at worst. Seeing Vino by the podium today gave me intestinal moods. Thinking that he is allowed to be anywhere near the sport or even worse mentor 20-25 year-old kids shows how rotten the system is. What works is when governments (regardless of the underlying motive of the politicians), with police and justice resources, take action.
Astana is funded by their government (state-owned companies).
 
Tonton said:
You make my very point: UCI and Federations' 'efforts' have proven their ineffectiveness at best, complicity at worst. Seeing Vino by the podium today gave me intestinal moods. Thinking that he is allowed to be anywhere near the sport or even worse mentor 20-25 year-old kids shows how rotten the system is.
This, IMO is the sports greatest problem. Far too many of the guys with the knowledge, leadership character and experience to run teams at the highest level were raised in the culture. Look at Riis - incredible rider manager, leader, tactical genius, respected by almost everyone in the sport, yet I bet nobody here would trust him with their 21yo neo pro son (assuming they had one). LeFevere, Bernaudeau, Andersen and Stephens are a few others I'd put in the same category. Julich, White and Vino look like they are developing in the same way.

Guys like these are both the best and worst people for the sport - it's a dilemma that needs to be fixed, but how? The high profile ex-dopers are the ones with the best experience, not just in doping and not just on the road :(
 
Aug 1, 2011
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thehog said:
Good to see but have the French guys had enough and decided to get on the program?
Random? JCP, Pinot, and Badret have all shown they can ride to this level. The 3 best GT riders in the world missing, easier to move up in the top 10, no?
 
Jul 23, 2012
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They are doping. The French cyclists have had enough of being used as a veneer to protect the product. Their post-race interviews were less than convincing: Peraud with his fake humility and Pinot looking for multiple KOMs together with a TV career to follow. This is WWE except Vince McMahon is actually a genuine guy in a Church every Sunday sort of American way. That alone puts him on different moral plane to these Gallic twits.
 
May 26, 2009
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I'm at a loss what's the proof that they ever stopped doping. If anyone says: "they lacked GC contenders" I can point to the Dutch. The Dutch were pigging hard on epo as well, but disappeared from the GT rankings.

Lack of contenders is no proof for countries being clean.

On the other hand, there are very good reasons to think that French cycling has been protecting their dope doctors all the time, contrary to the grandstanding.

Hello Dr. Menuet, still around I see?
 
Jul 19, 2009
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That could help, from Veloclinic :


That is never a proof of cleaness, that seems not as bad as some believe.
 
Apr 3, 2011
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42x16ss said:
This, IMO is the sports greatest problem. Far too many of the guys with the knowledge, leadership character and experience to run teams at the highest level were raised in the culture. Look at Riis - incredible rider manager, leader, tactical genius, respected by almost everyone in the sport, yet I bet nobody here would trust him with their 21yo neo pro son (assuming they had one). LeFevere, Bernaudeau, Andersen and Stephens are a few others I'd put in the same category. Julich, White and Vino look like they are developing in the same way.

Guys like these are both the best and worst people for the sport - it's a dilemma that needs to be fixed, but how? The high profile ex-dopers are the ones with the best experience, not just in doping and not just on the road :(
and all this while none of the big teams ever tried to engage guys like Bassons (something JV may think about if he's serious)
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Gadret is doing normal progression, now at Movistar after years with Ag2R - despite being more a domestique.

I think you can extrapolate that to mean Movistar are cleans, yes?

Or something?
 
Jul 29, 2009
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doperhopper said:
and all this while none of the big teams ever tried to engage guys like Bassons (something JV may think about if he's serious)
Bassons may not want to be involved and even if he did he doesn't necessarily have the skill set to be a good DS/manager.

Pool of expros who were completely clean from which to select managers is rather small. Doesn't surprise me that the best DSs also have doping history even if the two things are unrelated.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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doperhopper said:
and all this while none of the big teams ever tried to engage guys like Bassons (something JV may think about if he's serious)
Bassons is involved with anti-doping. I say we leave him there. Where he chose to be. Clearly where he feels the passion.

Wait, Wiki makes it sound even better:

He now works for the ministry of youth and sport at Bordeaux, in charge of drug tests
Brilliantly perfect in every way, still.

Work for PR buffoon ex-dopers vs what he is doing now? No thank you.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
Astana is funded by their government (state-owned companies).
Yes Astana is. But it is obviously not funding the type of research that I mentioned, which probably explains why for a decade or so, French riders were 'cleaner' than the rest. I also question how the funding has evolved, due to budget cuts, and maybe that explains the resurgence. I hope not, but I'm no fool either (I hope :eek:). I tend to believe Pinot, JCP, or Bardet's performances. Voekler 4th in a Tour, I just can't swallow that.
 
buckle said:
They are doping. The French cyclists have had enough of being used as a veneer to protect the product. Their post-race interviews were less than convincing: Peraud with his fake humility and Pinot looking for multiple KOMs together with a TV career to follow. This is WWE except Vince McMahon is actually a genuine guy in a Church every Sunday sort of American way. That alone puts him on different moral plane to these Gallic twits.
Wow! That was a dumb post :D

Keep watching WWE then :p
 
May 26, 2010
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Tonton said:
Wow! That was a dumb post :D

Keep watching WWE then :p
Can you point to why Ag2R/FDJ who have a terrible history in relation to doping are clean now?

Their riders are riding at speeds akin to 2006.

In 2006, Operation Puerto time, 1st to 9th separated by 14mins.

In 2014, 2nd to 10th almost 14mins....

plus ca change...............
 
Benotti69 said:
Can you point to why Ag2R/FDJ who have a terrible history in relation to doping are clean now?

Their riders are riding at speeds akin to 2006.

In 2006, Operation Puerto time, 1st to 9th separated by 14mins.

In 2014, 2nd to 10th almost 14mins....

plus ca change...............
I believe in the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle versus 'guilty until proven innocent', even if it takes 10 years and B samples, or a bust, to bring the truth. Hence my mention about 'smoking gun', to which you responded 'smoke everywhere', when all I see is allegations. Where are the facts? The data? Show me that Pinot climbed Hautacam at 6+ watts per kilo, 415+ watts, then yes I will scratch my head. Like I scratched my head when Voekler became a GC contender, or a guy goes from DQ hanging on car doors Cav-style to dropping everyone on a climb. We're not too far apart. You're just so much more skeptic than me.
 
May 26, 2010
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Tonton said:
I believe in the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle versus 'guilty until proven innocent', even if it takes 10 years and B samples, or a bust, to bring the truth. Hence my mention about 'smoking gun', to which you responded 'smoke everywhere', when all I see is allegations. Where are the facts? The data? Show me that Pinot climbed Hautacam at 6+ watts per kilo, 415+ watts, then yes I will scratch my head. Like I scratched my head when Voekler became a GC contender, or a guy goes from DQ hanging on car doors Cav-style to dropping everyone on a climb. We're not too far apart. You're just so much more skeptic than me.
I am skeptical, totally, why? because the sport is full to the brim of ex dopers, enablers, dirty DS, dirty soigneurs, doping doctors and all these people have no reason to change their culture.........

These people including their riders do not deserve 'innocent until proven guilty'. The sport is a doping sport, anyone who wants to be viewed as clean has to do everything in their power to show they are clean. Talk is cheap.
 
Benotti69 said:
These people including their riders do not deserve 'innocent until proven guilty'.
That's a major difference between us. We can agree to disagree.

Maybe you should replace Cookson, fire the entire peloton, clean or not, and who knows I might be able to race in the TdF next year :D Or maybe not, because then you will call me a doper :p and start a thread like: 'Tonton: too good to be true?' :D
 
Jul 23, 2012
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Guilty until proven innocent is fair. In a sport where someone can be forcibly kicked out for being clean then we have truly entered an Orwellian World where the rule of law has broken down.
 
buckle said:
Guilty until proven innocent is fair. In a sport where someone can be forcibly kicked out for being clean then we have truly entered an Orwellian World where the rule of law has broken down.
Then why would a kid begin or persevere in cycling knowing that if he/she makes it, he/she will be called a doper, dragged in the mud, guilty or not? What about the guys who are clean? Collateral damage of the 'guilty until proven innocent'? That is so not right!

I'm not too certain that fighting the absurd with the absurd is the way to go.

If the goal is to eradicate doping in the sport, there may be more sensible steps to take, and I will be redundant:

1. Kick all convicted dopers out of the sport, race organization, teams, TV booths.
2. Have riders sign a contract as a requisite for obtaining their license: if we catch you, you will pay back the $ double, plus 10% interests per year (or something like that).
3. Teams and sponsors: give a $10M deposit, reimbursed 10 years after you quit cycling. One of your riders gets busted? You pay!

There're probably more points that could be added to these three. Unfortunately, the very first point got an answer from Cookson today: Mr. 60% and Vino's jobs are safe :mad:
 
Jul 21, 2014
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Doped or not, I just can't see 2nd and 3rd in this year's TDF repeating their success in 2015. I see it as a flash in the pan to be honest. Their teams don't have the depth of talent or budget to support a 100% TDF GC attempt in the same manner that Sky, BMC, etc have. I think they came into the tour hoping to snipe stage wins and ended up exceeding their expectations.
 
earfloss said:
Doped or not, I just can't see 2nd and 3rd in this year's TDF repeating their success in 2015. I see it as a flash in the pan to be honest. Their teams don't have the depth of talent or budget to support a 100% TDF GC attempt in the same manner that Sky, BMC, etc have. I think they came into the tour hoping to snipe stage wins and ended up exceeding their expectations.
So Pinot wasn't going for GC after his previous strong results at the Tour? Just hoping to "snipe" a stage win?

School up.
 

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