Rank the 2011 teams

[Sydney21]

Katusha, Geox, Vacansoleil, Ag2R and Euskaltel are definitely in front of BMC

-Yeah with Geox and Euskatels ability to ride on anything but mountains. I don't rate non-versatile teams as highly. Its unfair for them to be able to gear theyre season to certain races and be rated as high as other teams.
-Katusha are close
-Nico Roche is just a not as good form of Cadel (but I still like him)
- And Vacansoleil are lucky to even make the list with mosquera and ricco as leaders!

 

[The Hitch]

Wins are big? And then you mention Anton as being one of the five best GT riders in the world? So that would be Contador, Schleck, Samuel Sanchez, Menchov,... and Anton? That's quite the assumption, right there.

That's just one of the inconsistencies in your argument. Let's just say I disagree with you completely

Well no, since i expect Contador banned you can take Contador out of there. I would rank Bala verde above Igor too but i dont expect to see much of him next season either.

So its Andy, Samu, Basso, Menchov, Anton though not neccesarily in that order.

And its all right to see flaws. As i said its just my opinion. I personally rate Euskatel and Movistar highly. This opinion is subject to change, so feel free to tell me about all the other flaws in my ranking.

 

[El Pistolero]

I hope Quick Step stops its sponsorship soon. Would be great to see where Boonen would go. He needs a better team. Quick Step is total crap, without Boonen it would lose its ProTour licence for sure. Can't believe he isn't tempted to leave or buy out his contract.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

First of all, you had to say Rabobank. I rated Lampre above Garmin, Lux Geox, Movistar, Op Lotto, Astana Euskatel and Katusha.

but the one you had issue with was Rabo Hint of bias? Maybe you could have hidden this by saying for example, " how can Lampre possibly list higher than Garmin"

first of all i said euskatel over rabobank.
all i said about lampre was that this was not a 3rd place team. And they are not, no way. Please read more carefully

ps. I don't really acre about rabobank, I merely like the dutch riders. And yeah I just used them as an example.

I repeat, I don't understand how euskatel, movistar etc are a better team then rabobank. I think you might be on a vuelta hang over with the whole euskatel thing... And movistar have no one to lead, so yeah.. i don't get it.

Secondly, its an opinion. Its not like i rated Androni above HTC ffs.

For me gts and classics are worth a lot. Wins and podiums are worth a lot. Euskatel wont perform on cobbles but they have, in my eyes 2 of the best 5 gters. + with no Contador or Valverde, i see good chances for Samu in Paris Nice, Pais Vasco and Burgos. Also in ardennes with Anton and Samu, and in Lombardy, and in San Sebastian.

hmmm... see my problem is rabo, garmin, katusha are already owning euskatel in overall performance. And then.. unlike euskatel most of these teams have only improved their squad for next season.. Seems to me your assuming anton and samu are going to rip the season up next year.
Eusk. lack depth and variation. No way will they bring as many results in, in so many different areas as the teams I mentioned.
And I don't see them dominating the GTS. competitive maybe... dominate no. So yeah...

Rabo on the other hand won not one gt stage last year. Their best performer in gts has left. I dont see Freire repeating MSR. Hell get stages though. LLS is good but welll see. I dont know that Breschel will be up there in classics. Gesink can challenge for gts and monuments but in my eyes not on the Samu and Anton level.

rabo have breschel and a very strong cobbles team to back him up, and possibly get results in smaller races. Langeveld, Boom etc

sprinters in friere, bos and even brown will get results here and there throughout the season.

classic riders hardly end at gesink... martens, barredo, LLS?

LLS is on of the best stage races in the world... gesink should get some results in stages races also.. as should mollema.

as for the anton and samu comment, well that's an opinion. I disagree, but we'll see.

Oh and if you want to base a team on more than 1 or 2 leders as you say, then surely you will have to rate Movistar above Rabo, no? Rabo have Gesink, a gt contender, but Movistar so many 2nd tier gt guys.
Xavier Tondo, Rubén Plaza, Marzio Bruseghin, Beñat Intxausti, David Arroyo, Juan Mauricio Soler. + good domestiques, very strong squad.

haha really? You are really clutching for straws at the moment.
but yeah maybe arroyo will get in another long breakaway and win a GT.
This is definitely a team lacking a leader, 2nd tier is not a leader.. I do think tondo and soler have potential to do something, but we'll see.

At this point you can hardly compare them to gesink.

And for me wins are big. If other people want to reward teams for placing top 10 in every race and win nothing, thats their choice. My choice is to reward teams who i think will get podiums and wins.

this is pretty short sighted, but again.. euskatel aren't really ranking in the wins anyway. IMO your basing you're rankings on a assumption rather then previous evidence. But whatever..

I suggest you reread his comment. Also, what's up with this Rabo/Gesink/Dutch mafia obsession you have? Get over it.

I agree, he obvious has some grudge. Yawn.

Well if you look at my points rankings rabobank is higher than movistar and geox and is in = 7th place! With my rankings, BMC was 9th and I was fair and unbisaed as possible.

For the most pasrt I agree with your rankings. Just think you overrated BMC

 

[theyoungest]

Well no, since i expect Contador banned you can take Contador out of there. I would rank Bala verde above Igor too but i dont expect to see much of him next season either.

So its Andy, Samu, Basso, Menchov, Anton though not neccesarily in that order.

And its all right to see flaws. As i said its just my opinion. I personally rate Euskatel and Movistar highly. This opinion is subject to change, so feel free to tell me about all the other flaws in my ranking.

Well, then let me take one of your other gems:

Oh and if you want to base a team on more than 1 or 2 leders as you say, then surely you will have to rate Movistar above Rabo, no? Rabo have Gesink, a gt contender, but Movistar so many 2nd tier gt guys.
Xavier Tondo, Rubén Plaza, Marzio Bruseghin, Beñat Intxausti, David Arroyo, Juan Mauricio Soler. + good domestiques, very strong squad.

Gesink isn't the only GT guy on Rabo, you know. L.L. Sanchez and Mollema are hardly first tier contenders (although Mollema could still become one, much potential for development) but neither are the Movistar guys. And with Kruijswijk and Slagter they have some major talent coming up.

 

[nvpacchi]

first of all i said euskatel over rabobank.

hmmm... see my problem is rabo, garmin, katusha are already owning euskatel in overall performance. And then.. unlike euskatel most of these teams have only improved their squad for next season.. Seems to me your assuming anton and samu are going to rip the season up next year.
Eusk. lack depth and variation. No way will they bring as many results in, in so many different areas as the teams I mentioned.
And I don't see them dominating the GTS. competitive maybe... dominate no. So yeah...



rabo have breschel and a very strong cobbles team to back him up, and possibly get results in smaller races. Langeveld, Boom etc

sprinters in friere, bos and even brown will get results here and there throughout the season.

classic riders hardly end at gesink... martens, barredo, LLS?

LLS is on of the best stage races in the world... gesink should get some results in stages races also.. as should mollema.

as for the anton and samu comment, well that's an opinion. I disagree, but we'll see.

I am confused by this comment. Are you stating that Euskaltel has not done anything to try and improve their roster, or they are looking several years down the road.

And they have more depth than people give them credit for. Last year 7 different riders took wins, including sprints, uphill finishes, and MTF, plus a TT (though Intxausti is now gone).

In a few years Castroviejo well be as good or a better time trialist than LLS. Last year he got top 10 in both Eneco Tour TT's, and 13th in the Tour de Suisse TT (better than LLS who was 19th).

Not saying they are better than Rabobank, but they are a lot more versatile than people give them credit for. Cobbles aside, they'll be good for placings in hilly, mountainous, and sprint stages, as well as a TT from Castroviejo.

And Perez Moreno and Txurruka are due for a breakaway win at some point.

 

[The Hitch]

I repeat, I don't understand how euskatel, movistar etc are a better team then rabobank. I think you might be on a vuelta hang over with the whole euskatel thing... And movistar have no one to lead, so yeah.. i don't get it.

I made it clear, exactly why i saw movistar and euskatel above rabo.

hmmm... see my problem is rabo, garmin, katusha are already owning euskatel in overall performance. And then.. unlike euskatel most of these teams have only improved their squad for next season.. Seems to me your assuming anton and samu are going to rip the season up next year.
Eusk. lack depth and variation. No way will they bring as many results in, in so many different areas as the teams I mentioned.
And I don't see them dominating the GTS. competitive maybe... dominate no. So yeah...

Depends what you see as owning. As i pointed out, Acf did not specify a ranking system. You rate them how you wish. I dont see Purito or Karpets challenging for gts and i see both Samu and Anton doing that. I also see Samu having almost as good a chance at a monument as Pipo Kolobnev and Euskatel more likely to win a stage race. So no they wont get a top 10 in every race, but as i said, i care more about a few wins and podiums than a hundred top 10s.

And Euskatel may not have improved there squad but if Anton and Samu get better luck with crashes, then their squad will be improved, and the tdf next year suits Samu more than this years one did, especially with no contador.

So under MY terms (and this is MY ranking) Katusha are not owning Euskatel.

rabo have breschel and a very strong cobbles team to back him up, and possibly get results in smaller races. Langeveld, Boom etc

sprinters in friere, bos and even brown will get results here and there throughout the season.

classic riders hardly end at gesink... martens, barredo, LLS?

LLS is on of the best stage races in the world... gesink should get some results in stages races also.. as should mollema.

I mentioned Breschel. I mentioned LLS clearly, so i have no idea why theres a question mark by his name. If Tondo, Soler, Bruzgegin are 2nd tier gters, then Martens and Baredo are 2nd tier classics riders at best.

I also dont see LLS as being as good as he was 2 years ago

as for the anton and samu comment, well that's an opinion. I disagree, but we'll see.

Finaly you get the point

At this point you can hardly compare them to gesink.

I didnt. I said Gesink was better. He is a better gter than anyone Movistar has. Happy?

haha really? You are really clutching for straws at the moment.
but yeah maybe arroyo will get in another long breakaway and win a GT.
This is definitely a team lacking a leader, 2nd tier is not a leader.

If 2nd tier is not a leader then your whole Rabo Breschel idea can go down the drain cant it? Hes good, but hes a level below Canc, Boonen. He got 6th on Flanders, Tondo got 6th in Vuelta. Yes he was working for Canc last year when he got his Flanders placing but still. I expect Breschel to improve but i also expect Tondo to improve, especially with a very good team behind him. They have Tondo and Bruzegin and Soler and Arroyo. Together they can make it work. They freakin tried it with LLS at the TOur last year and all these riders are way better at gts than LLS.

 

[ingsve]

Yeah, good analysis. Although it might be better to do a weighted calculation, because now the ability to win TTs is rated equally to winning GTs.

Ya, I was going for comparing specific points of strength rather than ability to win the biggest races. Perhaps I should add an x2 on GT, cobbles, ardennes and perhaps sprinting. A lot of the different categories are connected though. If you are good at the GT category I would usually evaluate the ability to win GT stages a little higher and the climbing category would also follow suit rather nicely and often the TT category is also tied to overall GT ability.

 

[Matthijs]

I think people overrate Anton here. He was so strong in some mountain stages in the Vuelta. But up till now, every GT he has had his bad days. He missed the hardest last week, so I think it is still up for discussion if Anton can challenge all 3 weeks in a GT... And did his TT ability suddenly become at almost the same level as S.Sanchez and the others mentioned?

 

[nvpacchi]

I think people overrate Anton here. He was so strong in some mountain stages in the Vuelta. But up till now, every GT he has had his bad days. He missed the hardest last week, so I think it is still up for discussion if Anton can challenge all 3 weeks in a GT... And did his TT ability suddenly become at almost the same level as S.Sanchez and the others mentioned?

I think if Mikel Nieve was able to get stronger over the last week of the 2010 Vuelta, then Anton certainly would have been fine if he had not fallen.

Anton's TT level is not great, but in a hillier shorter TT he will not implode. He was 3rd in the Castilla y Leon TT this year in front of the likes of Menchov and Konovalovas.

In the 2007 Vuelta TT (20km) he was 20th, losing 58 sec. to winning teammate Sanchez. Not spectacular, but certainly a good job at limiting his losses.

And with only 32 TT kms in the Giro, the course just bleeds Orange this year. (If they decide to go of course)

I think Anton proved this year he has finally turned the corner. After his major injury in '08, he rebuilt his form in '09, and came out swinging this year. Riding Contador, Soler, and Mosquera off his wheel in the Vuelta a Castilla y Leon was one of the most impressive feats of the year IMO.

Then getting 4th in Fleche and 7th in Liege (both in debut efforts) reconfirmed his effort in Castilla was not a fluke.

He'll erase any doubt this coming year anyone may have had about him.

 

[Kwibus]

I suggest you reread his comment. Also, what's up with this Rabo/Gesink/Dutch mafia obsession you have? Get over it.

Hehe you should get over it yourself too though. He's obviously trolling the dutch maffia and aslong as you react like this it's working for him.
I do think that you (The Hitch) sometimes look too far to find our biased opinion toward the dutch, but I see what you are doing there

 

[auscyclefan94]

first of all i said euskatel over rabobank.
all i said about lampre was that this was not a 3rd place team. And they are not, no way. Please read more carefully

ps. I don't really acre about rabobank, I merely like the dutch riders. And yeah I just used them as an example.

I repeat, I don't understand how euskatel, movistar etc are a better team then rabobank. I think you might be on a vuelta hang over with the whole euskatel thing... And movistar have no one to lead, so yeah.. i don't get it.



hmmm... see my problem is rabo, garmin, katusha are already owning euskatel in overall performance. And then.. unlike euskatel most of these teams have only improved their squad for next season.. Seems to me your assuming anton and samu are going to rip the season up next year.
Eusk. lack depth and variation. No way will they bring as many results in, in so many different areas as the teams I mentioned.
And I don't see them dominating the GTS. competitive maybe... dominate no. So yeah...


For the most pasrt I agree with your rankings. Just think you overrated BMC

Timmy, saying you don't care about rabobank and only care about dutch riders is a blatant lie. Firstly your profile name is "timmy loves rabo". Secondly you defend everything to do with rabobank like they are your baby. I am not saying that you are wrong but I think you shouldn't deny that you will always defend rabo.

 

[The Hitch]

Well, then let me take one of your other gems:

Gesink isn't the only GT guy on Rabo, you know. L.L. Sanchez and Mollema are hardly first tier contenders (although Mollema could still become one, much potential for development) but neither are the Movistar guys. And with Kruijswijk and Slagter they have some major talent coming up.

Mollema, yes ive always sided with you guys in saying he has good potential.

Id say Mollema is a potential top 10er.

These are the 6 top potential top 10ers in Movistar.

Xavier Tondo, Rubén Plaza, Marzio Bruseghin, Beñat Intxausti, David Arroyo, Juan Mauricio Soler.

Id say Mollema is about the level of Arroyo and Intxausti. But yes he ranks.

Kruijswijk also has potential. Real potential. But i think hes a bit young. And he isnt on the same yet level as the above 6.

LLS. Um no. Classics yes. Stage races yes. Gts no. Hes not on the level of the above 6 IMO

Is it really such a stretch to say that Rabo have one top GC guy- Gesink, and one 2nd tier guy - Mollema, while Movistar have no top guys but 6 2nd tier gters? Who working together could cause havoc. And each one of which could potentially win a stage race?

Is that really such a stretch?

 

[theyoungest]

Mollema, yes ive always sided with you guys in saying he has good potential.

Id say Mollema is a potential top 10er.

These are the 6 top potential top 10ers in Movistar.

Xavier Tondo, Rubén Plaza, Marzio Bruseghin, Beñat Intxausti, David Arroyo, Juan Mauricio Soler.

Id say Mollema is about the level of Arroyo and Intxausti. But yes he ranks.

Kruijswijk also has potential. Real potential. But i think hes a bit young. And he isnt on the same yet level as the above 6.

LLS. Um no. Classics yes. Stage races yes. Gts no. Hes not on the level of the above 6 IMO

Is it really such a stretch to say that Rabo have one top GC guy- Gesink, and one 2nd tier guy - Mollema, while Movistar have no top guys but 6 2nd tier gters? Who working together could cause havoc. And each one of which could potentially win a stage race?

Is that really such a stretch?

Of course it's not, but you mentioned Gesink as their only GT guy. That's not entirely true. And while I agree with you that LLS really isn't one for the GTs, he did manage to finish 11th in the Tour and 10th in the Vuelta this year (with a bit of luck in breakaways) so he deserves a mention. Certainly if you mention Intxausti, who has done nothing in GTs so far.

For the smaller tours Movistar are quite stacked, I agree, but there Gesink and L.L. Sanchez are stronger than anything Movistar has to offer.

 

[ingsve]

LLS. Um no. Classics yes. Stage races yes. Gts no. Hes not on the level of the above 6 IMO

Say what? LLS was 11th at the Tour and 10th at the Vuelta this year. That's certainly in range of the level of the guys you mention. And besides that, Bruseghin will be 37 next year. He'll never see the inside of a GT top 10 again. He's more of a domestique than a GC guy and Rabo has Garate to match that. As for Soler I would like to see him actually finish a race again before I believe he can still be a top 10 rider. Also Intxausti still has to prove that he can last an entire three week tour. Right now Kruijswijk has a better placing than him with his 18th place in the Giro.

I'd say that Rabo has one top GC guy and two 2nd tier guys and a youngster in Kruijswijk. Movistar has three 2nd tier guys, a youngster in Intxausti and one wild card in Soler. I would call that pretty even with regards to GC.

 

[The Hitch]

Say what? LLS was 11th at the Tour and 10th at the Vuelta this year. That's certainly in range of the level of the guys you mention. And besides that, Bruseghin will be 37 next year. He'll never see the inside of a GT top 10 again. He's more of a domestique than a GC guy and Rabo has Garate to match that. As for Soler I would like to see him actually finish a race again before I believe he can still be a top 10 rider. Also Intxausti still has to prove that he can last an entire three week tour. Right now Kruijswijk has a better placing than him with his 18th place in the Giro.

I'd say that Rabo has one top GC guy and two 2nd tier guys and a youngster in Kruijswijk. Movistar has three 2nd tier guys, a youngster in Intxausti and one wild card in Soler. I would call that pretty even with regards to GC.

Inxausti does have good performances in hilly stage races though. Beat even Samu in Pais Vasco this year. I think step up to GT contention.

As for Marzio, i think he still has 1 top 10 in him.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Timmy, saying you don't care about rabobank and only care about dutch riders is a blatant lie. Firstly your profile name is "timmy loves rabo". Secondly you defend everything to do with rabobank like they are your baby. I am not saying that you are wrong but I think you shouldn't deny that you will always defend rabo.

I would like to see a post or a link to where i defend rabo outside the dutch riders. Outside my reply to hitch I'n this thread obviously just because I thought his post was odd. Please do provide an example tho... On contrary I'm very willing to go find multiple bmc biased crap from you.
Cheers

The user name was a mistake. I couldn't think of anything at the time . Pretty sure this is where your perception for bias stems from.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Mollema has the potential to be as good as a lot of those Movistar guys you mention... but he isn't there yet. Arroyo has 3 Giro top 10s.

Gesink is a good GT guy... but saying that Mollema is right now on the same level as guys who have top 10s in their back pocket and wins at bigger races, such as Tondó, is pushing it. I'll concede he's level with the likes of Plaza.

Another thing on the talent factor is that Rabo aren't known for the best tactics; Caisse have been downright masterful at times this year; sticking their noses in a GC battle they had no business being part of at the Giro, trying it again with the Tour (being one of the most active teams) and having 6 guys in the top 22 and 2 back to back stage wins at one point in the Vuelta; having guys caught in the Antón crash hamstrung what had been a good position.

And while we're pointing at the potential of people like Kruijswijk as saying that that helps Rabo even up with what Movistar have, can't we point at the potential of Movistar youngsters like Madrazo, Samoilau and Herrada? And what about Sérgio Pardilla, who just came off a podium in the Volta a Portugal and has been climbing well and battling in GCs all year long? Or Vasil Kiryienka, who has never been a GC threat but will always enliven a race and threaten wins here and there?

Gesink is a better GC man than anybody Movistar have, sure. But they don't have the depth that Movistar have when it comes to GCs, and I think Gesink isn't so much better than the Movistar crew that him + Mollema + LLS > the entire crowd of Movistar GC riders. No way. Mollema is as yet unproven and LLS is of a GC position not at all unlike most of the Movistar lot - and with 2011 looking like a year that favours the mountains, that's not too great for LLS as opposed to, say, Tondó and Intxausti (and of course Gesink).

 

[ingsve]

Inxausti does have good performances in hilly stage races though. Beat even Samu in Pais Vasco this year. I think step up to GT contention.

Yes, he does and I agree that he will probably develope into a good GT GC guy but as of yet it's a little premature. There are plenty of guys who have done well in week long stage races who end up never having success in GTs.

 

[theyoungest]

Mollema has the potential to be as good as a lot of those Movistar guys you mention... but he isn't there yet. Arroyo has 3 Giro top 10s.

Gesink is a good GT guy... but saying that Mollema is right now on the same level as guys who have top 10s in their back pocket and wins at bigger races, such as Tondó, is pushing it. I'll concede he's level with the likes of Plaza.

Another thing on the talent factor is that Rabo aren't known for the best tactics; Caisse have been downright masterful at times this year; sticking their noses in a GC battle they had no business being part of at the Giro, trying it again with the Tour (being one of the most active teams) and having 6 guys in the top 22 and 2 back to back stage wins at one point in the Vuelta; having guys caught in the Antón crash hamstrung what had been a good position.

And while we're pointing at the potential of people like Kruijswijk as saying that that helps Rabo even up with what Movistar have, can't we point at the potential of Movistar youngsters like Madrazo, Samoilau and Herrada? And what about Sérgio Pardilla, who just came off a podium in the Volta a Portugal and has been climbing well and battling in GCs all year long? Or Vasil Kiryienka, who has never been a GC threat but will always enliven a race and threaten wins here and there?

Gesink is a better GC man than anybody Movistar have, sure. But they don't have the depth that Movistar have when it comes to GCs, and I think Gesink isn't so much better than the Movistar crew that him + Mollema + LLS > the entire crowd of Movistar GC riders. No way. Mollema is as yet unproven and LLS is of a GC position not at all unlike most of the Movistar lot - and with 2011 looking like a year that favours the mountains, that's not too great for LLS as opposed to, say, Tondó and Intxausti (and of course Gesink).

Yes, well, if you're going to mention the entire Movistar team: they do have a whole bunch of B-list GC stars, I'll grant you that... although compared to some of these guys' GC chops even Laurens ten Dam and Juanma Garate come into play. But Hitch's original argument was: Rabo only have Gesink, Movistar have all these guys, and that was stretching it a bit IMO.

(BTW, Herrada is a GC force already? Well then, what about Slagter and Matthews?)

 

[Libertine Seguros]

No, Herrada isn't a GC force already. But it's hardly more of a stretch to include him than to include Kruijswijk, as was done above.

I'll grant you Garate, I'm not convinced by Ten Dam. He's no more a GC player than Kiryienka is, and I'd back Kiryienka over him in a mountain TT any day.

Basically, Rabo have a 1st tier guy, a couple of 2nds and maybe a 3rd. Movistar have no 1st tier guys, probably 4 or 5 2nds and a couple of 3rds. Plus they've been tactically more astute of late. I'd still back Gesink to be ahead of them on GC, but it's ridiculous to dismiss the likes of Intxausti based on them not having shown enough to date and yet count Mollema. Both riders are pretty damn good, but all we have so far are indications, no hard evidence of what they can do as GC riders, and I'd say that from what we've seen they're much of a muchness.

Mollema in 2010:
Ruta del Sol - 5th
País Vasco - 99th
Romandie - 39th
Giro - 12th
Suisse - 30th
Wallonie - 11th
Pologne - 3rd

Intxausti:
Paris-Nice - 70th
Criterium International - 10th
País Vasco - 2nd
Asturias - 3rd
Pologne - DNF
Vuelta - DNF

So, Mollema has the better GT showing and the consistency, but Intxausti has the top results in tougher races, and his best result comes against a better field than Mollema's.

It would be unfair to count one and not the other, in my opinion.

 

[theyoungest]

Ten Dam is a bit of a late bloomer, and has had a very unlucky season, but he's actually finished top-10 in the Tour de Suisse, Deutschland Tour, Catalunya, and Burgos, which suggests at least some GC talent. Rabo mostly use him as a domestique, but he's quite a good rider.

Also, neo-pro Kruijswijk got 18th in the Giro (while not even riding for GC) and 8th in Burgos. I think it's not that strange to mention him, actually.

 

[Arnout]

Intxausti cannot cope with the pressure put on him by close relatives, that's why he's so inconsistent, and also why he decided to move away from his home team. Interesting to see how he will be doing next year.