Rank the 2011 teams

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Vasc. have devolder.
Whom has 2 monument victories.
That's one more then BMC.

Guess by your logic. Vasc edge it in the classics.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Vasc. have devolder.
Whom has 2 monument victories.
That's one more then BMC.

Guess by your logic. Vasc edge it in the classics.

you mean rxgqgxnyfz?

 

[nobilis]

11. BMC (Evans, Hincapie)
12. KATUSHA (Rodriguez, Pozzato)
13. GEOX (Menchov Sastre)
14. VACANSOLEIL (Ricco Leukmans Devolder)
15. AG2R (Roche, Peraud, Gadret, Hinault)
16. EUSKALTEL (Sanchez, Anton, Nieve)

Katusha, Geox, Vacansoleil, Ag2R and Euskaltel are definitely in front of BMC

 

[The Hitch]

Visconti won't ride for Lampre. Neither will Sinkewitz. Farnese Vini is a different team, as of next season.

So in terms of team leaders, it's just this year's Lampre with Scarponi added to it. Not that spectacular, if you ask me.

Ah if they are a different team then Lampre are not 3rd.

Ferminal is a top quality poster so I saw no reason to think twice when i saw this post

I think Lampre-ISD are better than all three of those, at least in terms of all round strength.

Scarponi
Cunego
Petacchi
Visconti
Gavazzi
Bole
Spilak
Kashechkin
Hondo
Sinkewitz?

Maybe looking at that list you can see why i would rate Lampre so highly. If that is 2 teams then well, its a bit of a shame and obviously they go down the list.

 

[The Hitch]

Katusha, Geox, Vacansoleil, Ag2R and Euskaltel are definitely in front of BMC

I dont know about Katusha, and Agr. Despite being a big Vacon fan i think BMC are better than them too. Just about. But Euskatel and Geox yes.

 

[ingsve]

OK, so I thougt that if I was going to evaluate the teams for 2011 then I should at least try and be systematic about it. So what I did was I created several categories for which to compare the different teams and give each team a score for each separate category.

The categories I used were:

-Grand Tours: Calibre of GC riders and how much support they can get.
-Though Stage Races: For example Pais Vasco, Dauphine, TdS etc.
-Flat Stage Races: ENECO Tour, Down Under Britain etc.
-GT stages
-Stage race stages
-Cobbles tram: Both leaders and support
-Ardennes: Both leaders and support
-Other one day races: Could be anything that's not cobble or ardennes.
-Sprints: Both various sprinters and leadouts etc
-Climbers: Overal quality of climbers
-Time Trials: Both ITT and TTT

Each category could score between 1 and 5 points with half points being possible. Maximum points would be 55.

The results are as follows:

1) Luxembourg 48.5
2) Garmin 45.5
2) Rabobank 45.5
4) Sky 42
5) Liquigas 41
5) Omega Pharma 41
7) Katusha 40.5
7) HTC 40.5
9) Saxo Bank with Contador 40
9) Astana 40
11) Lampre 39
12) Vacansoleil without Mosquera 37.5
13) Radioshack 36
14) Euskaltel 35.5
15) BMC 34.5
16) Geox 34
17) Movistar 32
18) Saxo Bank without Contador 31.5
18) Quick Step 31.5
20) Androni 31
21) FDJ 30.5
22) AG2r 30
23) Cofidis 28
24) Europcar 26.5
24) Pegasus 26.5

As we can see Lux is by far the strongest ahead of Garmin and Rabobank but after that it is very tight.

When entire results with the individual points per category can be found

here

 

[auscyclefan94]

Quite like your system ingsve...

Going to have a go myself! Except I am going to take out "one day" for mine as it seems redundant when you have cobbles and ardennes really which covers the all the cobbles and hilly classics. I took GT as ability to win them overall.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Here's my rankings

1st Garmin 38.5
Luxembourg 38.5
3rd Omega Pharma 38 eek
4th HTC 37
5th Liquigas 34.5
Lampre
7th Rabobank 34
Sky
9th BMC 32.5
10th Katusha 31
11th Radioshack 30
12th Movistar 29.5
Geox
Euskaltel
Astana
Saxobank (- contador)
17th Quickstep 29
18th Vacansoleil 28.5 (- mosquera)
19th Europcar 28
AG2r
21st Pegasus 27.5
22nd FDJ 25
23rd Cofidis 24.5
24th Androni 24

Don't bite my head off because some of the results from my rankings stunned me!

 

[theyoungest]

"If you add us two to Marcus Bughardt, Karsten Kroon, George Hincapie and Alessandro Ballan, I think that, collectively, we're (BMC) stronger than anyone," "That's why our power in numbers could be crucial"

"I think, at the moment, BMC is the fastest-growing team in professional cycling,"

Funny, this Quinziato quote. Those 4 guys have been amazing in the classics this year And if you add Quinziato and Van Avermaet, that's just two more guys who won't be there in the final. But best of luck to them.

BTW, has he forgotten about Garmin? I think there's no question that they're collectively the strongest.

 

[jens_attacks]

best team my asz.again,cadel will be the only one who will score major victories.in the cobbled classics,they will get a top5 at best.anyway bravo quinziato joke of the day.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Funny, this Quinziato quote. Those 4 guys have been amazing in the classics this year And if you add Quinziato and Van Avermaet, that's just two more guys who won't be there in the final. But best of luck to them.

BTW, has he forgotten about Garmin? I think there's no question that they're collectively the strongest.

BMC will own all in the classics next year. just you watch! You will all bow down to my ultimate wisdom and superior knowledge of cycling because bmc will do a 1-2-3-4-5 with ballan, hincapie, phinney, quinziato & van avermaet in paris roubaix. They will also do a cool celebration next year
unlike this mob!

Rant over!

 

[theyoungest]

BMC will own all in the classics next year. just you watch! You will all bow down to my ultimate wisdom and superior knowledge of cycling because bmc will do a 1-2-3-4-5 with ballan, hincapie, phinney, quinziato & van avermaet in paris roubaix. They will also do a cool celebration next year

Why do you keep posting your self portrait?

But I agree, Ballan-Burghardt-Van Avermaet-Quinziato-Hincapie-Kroon-Phinney is a nice line-up with which they could maybe win a semi-classic. Not a monument though. There best classics rider will still be Cadel Evans, but unfortunately for them he doesn't do cobbles.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Why do you keep posting your self portrait?

But I agree, Ballan-Burghardt-Van Avermaet-Quinziato-Hincapie-Kroon-Phinney is a nice line-up with which they could maybe win a semi-classic. Not a monument though. There best classics rider will still be Cadel Evans, but unfortunately for them he doesn't do cobbles.

BMC will crush all that walks in it's path.


With the team that BMC had this year I expected a semi classic win. tbh I expect that and a far better performance in all the cobbled classics. Other than hincapie who got a 4th and 6th in GW and RVV, BMC were pretty pathetic. All of BMC's cobbled riders hada down year on the cobbles and for most of them a down year in general so to expect all of them to have a down year again is unlikely.

 

[rxgqgxnyfz]

BMC were pretty pathetic.

Who are you and what you did with ACF?
________
Lovely Wendie99

 

[Moondance]

OK, so I thougt that if I was going to evaluate the teams for 2011 then I should at least try and be systematic about it. So what I did was I created several categories for which to compare the different teams and give each team a score for each separate category.

The categories I used were:

-Grand Tours: Calibre of GC riders and how much support they can get.
-Though Stage Races: For example Pais Vasco, Dauphine, TdS etc.
-Flat Stage Races: ENECO Tour, Down Under Britain etc.
-GT stages
-Stage race stages
-Cobbles tram: Both leaders and support
-Ardennes: Both leaders and support
-Other one day races: Could be anything that's not cobble or ardennes.
-Sprints: Both various sprinters and leadouts etc
-Climbers: Overal quality of climbers
-Time Trials: Both ITT and TTT

Each category could score between 1 and 5 points with half points being possible. Maximum points would be 55.

The results are as follows:

1) Luxembourg 48.5
2) Garmin 45.5
2) Rabobank 45.5
4) Sky 42
5) Liquigas 41
5) Omega Pharma 41
7) Katusha 40.5
7) HTC 40.5
9) Saxo Bank with Contador 40
9) Astana 40
11) Lampre 39
12) Vacansoleil without Mosquera 37.5
13) Radioshack 36
14) Euskaltel 35.5
15) BMC 34.5
16) Geox 34
17) Movistar 32
18) Saxo Bank without Contador 31.5
18) Quick Step 31.5
20) Androni 31
21) FDJ 30.5
22) AG2r 30
23) Cofidis 28
24) Europcar 26.5
24) Pegasus 26.5

As we can see Lux is by far the strongest ahead of Garmin and Rabobank but after that it is very tight.

When entire results with the individual points per category can be found

here

V. v. impressive analysis. Almost nothing I disagree with. Therefore quality work!

 

[auscyclefan94]

Who are you and what you did with ACF?

I am ACF! Doesn't mean I agree with any of your other posts in this thread!

 

[theyoungest]

V. v. impressive analysis. Almost nothing I disagree with. Therefore quality work!

Yeah, good analysis. Although it might be better to do a weighted calculation, because now the ability to win TTs is rated equally to winning GTs.

 

[The Hitch]

this is hardly a 3rd strongest team. Unless this is the clutching at straws list... cause that's basically this is?
I also struggle to see how euskatel (I seriously cannot understand this... Were talking whole teams.. not a couple of euskatels best rider vs the couple of best riders elsewhere) and even geox and movistar (best list of domestiques maybe) can possibly list higher than rabobank. And katusha is way to low.

First of all, you had to say Rabobank. I rated Lampre above Garmin, Lux Geox, Movistar, Op Lotto, Astana Euskatel and Katusha.

but the one you had issue with was Rabo Hint of bias? Maybe you could have hidden this by saying for example, " how can Lampre possibly list higher than Garmin"

Acf learned this when complaining that lack of tts in the TDF will kill chances for Cuddles and Menchov(as if he cares about Menchov)

Secondly, its an opinion. Its not like i rated Androni above HTC ffs.

For me gts and classics are worth a lot. Wins and podiums are worth a lot. Euskatel wont perform on cobbles but they have, in my eyes 2 of the best 5 gters. + with no Contador or Valverde, i see good chances for Samu in Paris Nice, Pais Vasco and Burgos. Also in ardennes with Anton and Samu, and in Lombardy, and in San Sebastian.

The Lampre team i mentioned (which it turns out isnt going to exist, so yes, Rabo move up one place) had Gters and classic specialists in abundance. Geox has a rider who is used to winning gts in odd years and a tdf winner who in my eyes, still has a great performance in him. They have 1 or 2 decent young riders as well.


Rabo on the other hand won not one gt stage last year. Their best performer in gts has left. I dont see Freire repeating MSR. Hell get stages though. LLS is good but welll see. I dont know that Breschel will be up there in classics. Gesink can challenge for gts and monuments but in my eyes not on the Samu and Anton level.

Oh and if you want to base a team on more than 1 or 2 leders as you say, then surely you will have to rate Movistar above Rabo, no? Rabo have Gesink, a gt contender, but Movistar so many 2nd tier gt guys.
Xavier Tondo, Rubén Plaza, Marzio Bruseghin, Beñat Intxausti, David Arroyo, Juan Mauricio Soler. + good domestiques, very strong squad.

 

[theyoungest]

First of all, you had to say Rabobank. I rated Lampre above Garmin, Lux Geox, Movistar, Op Lotto, Astana Euskatel and Katusha.

but the one you had issue with was Rabo Hint of bias? Maybe you could have hidden this by saying for example, " how can Lampre possibly list higher than Garmin"

Acf learned this when complaining that lack of tts in the TDF will kill chances for Cuddles and Menchov(as if he cares about Menchov)

Secondly, its an opinion. Its not like i rated Androni above HTC ffs.

For me gts and classics are worth a lot. Wins and podiums are worth a lot. Euskatel wont perform on cobbles but they have, in my eyes 2 of the best 5 gters. + with no Contador or Valverde, i see good chances for Samu in Paris Nice, Pais Vasco and Burgos. Also in ardennes with Anton and Samu, and in Lombardy, and in San Sebastian.

The Lampre team i mentioned (which it turns out isnt going to exist, so yes, Rabo move up one place) had Gters and classic specialists in abundance. Geox has a rider who is used to winning gts in odd years and a tdf winner who in my eyes, still has a great performance in him. They have 1 or 2 decent young riders as well.


Rabo on the other hand won not one gt stage last year. Their best performer in gts has left. I dont see Freire repeating MSR. Hell get stages though. LLS is good but welll see. I dont know that Breschel will be up there in classics. Gesink can challenge for gts and monuments but in my eyes not on the Samu and Anton level.

Oh and if you want to base a team on more than 1 or 2 leders as you say, then surely you will have to rate Movistar above Rabo, no? Rabo have Gesink, a gt contender, but Movistar so many 2nd tier gt guys.
Xavier Tondo, Rubén Plaza, Marzio Bruseghin, Beñat Intxausti, David Arroyo, Juan Mauricio Soler. + good domestiques, very strong squad.

I suggest you reread his comment. Also, what's up with this Rabo/Gesink/Dutch mafia obsession you have? Get over it.

 

[The Hitch]

I suggest you reread his comment. Also, what's up with this Rabo/Gesink/Dutch mafia obsession you have? Get over it.

specifically what bit. there is a lot of stuff covered.

 

[Moondance]

Yeah, good analysis. Although it might be better to do a weighted calculation, because now the ability to win TTs is rated equally to winning GTs.

But he's looking at which team has the ability to compete in the most races, not the quality of the wins they produce. For instance Luxembourg, Rabobank and Garmin (to take the top-3) have the roster to be competive (at least) in almost every race of the year. HTC, ranked 9th, on the other hand (based on who they've lost and gained) have only 3, or so, proven winners outside Cav, Goss and their trains. They'll still win big races & stages no doubt, but wont always compete in every race....

 

[theyoungest]

specifically what bit. there is a lot of stuff covered.

He asks how Euskaltel, Geox, and Movistar can possibly be rated higher than Rabo. Not why all these teams are rated below Lampre. And he's right, whatever bias you have. These three teams are focused almost solely on the GTs, so how can they ever be among the best allround teams?

 

[auscyclefan94]

this is hardly a 3rd strongest team. Unless this is the clutching at straws list... cause that's basically this is?
I also struggle to see how euskatel (I seriously cannot understand this... Were talking whole teams.. not a couple of euskatels best rider vs the couple of best riders elsewhere) and even geox and movistar (best list of domestiques maybe) can possibly list higher than rabobank. And katusha is way to low.
lol @ bmc being 7th.

1 TEAM LUXEMBOURG
2 LIQUIGAS-DOIMO
3 RABOBANK
4 GARMIN - CERVELO
5 HTC
6 TEAM KATUSHA
7 OP LOTTO
8 LAMPRE-ISD
9 GEOX
10 MOVISTAR
11 EUSKALTEL
12 SKY
13 TEAM SAXO BANK
14 BMC RACING TEAM
15 VACANSOLEIL
16 QUICKSTEP
17 TEAM RADIOSHACK
and yeah the rest are more or less pretty close.

Well if you look at my points rankings rabobank is higher than movistar and geox and is in = 7th place! With my rankings, BMC was 9th and I was fair and unbisaed as possible.

 

[The Hitch]

He asks how Euskaltel, Geox, and Movistar can possibly be rated higher than Rabo. Not why all these guys are rated below Lampre.

Im puzzled. Thats exactly what i answered.

Read my post. I explained individually for each team just why i rated Euskatel, Geox and Movistar higher than Rabo.

And he's right, whatever bias you have. These three teams are focused almost solely on the GTs, so how can they ever be among the best allround teams

Yes but for me GTs are more important. Here is the OP

From strongest to weakest, rank all the teams 2011 lineups

ACF asks you to rate the strongest to weakest teams in your own opinion. It doesnt specify a ranking system.

For me GTs are most important. And as you say "These three teams are focused almost solely on the GTs". So i rate them highly.

Besides Eusk arent focused solely on gts. Samu is the ORR. He has 2nd in Lombardy. Anton has high placing in FW. Samu is a burgos champion and as i said is looking good for Paris Nice and Pais Vasco as well.

And for me wins are big. If other people want to reward teams for placing top 10 in every race and win nothing, thats their choice. My choice is to reward teams who i think will get podiums and wins.

 

[theyoungest]

Im puzzled. Thats exactly what i answered.

Read my post. I explained individually for each team just why i rated Euskatel, Geox and Movistar higher than Rabo.



Yes but for me GTs are more important. Here is the OP


ACF asks you to rate the strongest to weakest teams in your own opinion. It doesnt specify a ranking system.

For me GTs are most important. And as you say "These three teams are focused almost solely on the GTs". So i rate them highly.

Besides Eusk arent focused solely on gts. Samu is the ORR. He has 2nd in Lombardy. Anton has high placing in FW. Samu is a burgos champion and as i said is looking good for Paris Nice and Pais Vasco as well.

And for me wins are big. If other people want to reward teams for placing top 10 in every race and win nothing, thats their choice. My choice is to reward teams who i think will get podiums and wins.

Wins are big? And then you mention Anton as being one of the five best GT riders in the world? So that would be Contador, Schleck, Samuel Sanchez, Menchov,... and Anton? That's quite the assumption, right there.

That's just one of the inconsistencies in your argument. Let's just say I disagree with you completely