Rank the top 5 cyclists from your country by palmares

[del1962]

Re: Re:

Belgium:

(The most difficult was to judge the palmares of Philippe Thys.)

1) Eddy Merckx
2) Rik Van Looy
3) Philippe Thys
4) Roger De Vlaeminck
5) Freddy Maertens

I guess Tom Boonen would be sixth? Quite surprising not to see him here.

Definitely not. For 5th and 6th I doubted between Maertens and Van Steenbergen. So Van Steenbergen (3x wc, 1x msr, 2x rvv, 1x p-r, 2x FW,...) is 6th. I also rate Museeuw and Schotte higher than Boonen. Then there are guys like Sylvere Maes and Lucien Buysse who both won the Tour twice (but not much else), Germain Derycke and Walter Godefroot who lack the world title but were certainly no worse one day racers than Boonen (in an era with more competition). So, in my opinion Boonen hovers around somewhere in the lower parts of the top10.

I don't get how people keep saying this. The level today is 1000 times higher.

Not the level per se, but the competition is much larger. It's become a global sport, something that still wasn't the case in the 70s. I still stand by my ranking (page 2 or 3). I also rate Boonen higher than Museeuw.

Where do you rate Gilbert?

 

[franic]

I'm not russian but i followed a lot russian cycling, especially in my teenage years. For the modern era, i would go with the following:

1. Denis Menchov (2 GT wins, TDF podium + other relevant wins, such as Itzulia, stages in all GT, stages in Dauphiné and Paris-Nice...)
2. Pavel Tonkov (Won Giro d'Italia and placed second in two more, he also podiumed in Vuelta. A bunch of GT stage wins and some other relevant wins).
3. Evgeni Berzin (Won Giro d'Italia)
4. Viacheslav Ekimov (Gold Medal in ITT in Sidney'00 and other lesser but relevant wins, such as De Panne, stage in La Vuelta)
5. Dimitri Konyshev

Zakarin would be a notable mention, not far from Konyshev.

Maybe not top 5, but not far from Konyshev I would add:
Kolobnev:
2x 2nd in WC
2nd LBL
Bronze at Olympics
1st at Strade Bianche

Bobrik:
1st Giro di Lombardia (stolen from Chiappucci and Richard, but still)

Both are better than Zakarin IMHO

 

[rghysens]

Re: Re:

Where do you rate Gilbert?

Mmmm... good question. He has fewer monuments than Boonen, but a more varied palmares. And 4x AGR, 2x P-T, CSS are impressive in their own right. I think I would rate him slightly under Boonen.
I also forgot about Fred De Bruyne, who won 6 TDF stages, MSR, RVV, P-R, 3x LBL, Paris-Tours, 2x Paris-Nice and became 2nd in Lombardy. I would also rank him around Boonen.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

Where do you rate Gilbert?

Here i agree with rghysens: below Boonen in any case. Gilbert had a few stellar years, but was bit of a late bloomer (already in his late 20's before becoming a true world beater), whereas Boonen was more steady throughout, and from a much earlier age. Boonen had 150 pro victories, Gilbert 72. As far as their biggest victories go, they might be close, but if i remember correctly, Gilbert had his best year in terms of victories, when Valverde was suspended. Imagine if Boonen could ride two years RVV/PR with Cancellara suspended.

For me, Gilbert might make the top 10. But below Boonen / Museeuw (even though i have little sympathy for the latter anymore). But if the ranking would be about charisma, i'd put Claude Criquielion above the three of them.

 

[tobydawq]

Boonen had 122 pro wins and I don't think the age at which results are obtained should matter in a comparison of palmareses.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Belgium must be the hardest country to judge. Ok, the number one is as obvious as you can get, but after that it’s legitimate arguments all the way down thorough the top 100.

 

[GenericBoonenFan]

Re:

Belgium must be the hardest country to judge. Ok, the number one is as obvious as you can get, but after that it’s legitimate arguments all the way down thorough the top 100.

Even I.... was doubting wether I should put Boonen on 5 because part of me wanted Philippe Thys there, if it hadn't been for WWI he would've won (for sure) 5 TDF's and he also had unfortunate accidents and mechanicals in many others. Keep in mind he won in 1913 and 1920! over 6 years apart!
Not only did he win GTs, but he won Lombardia and Paris-Tours aswell, served in the french air force during the war and was the Belgium CycloX champion in 1910. Those were the days when they had to climb a fence in the middle of the race! And! he won his last TdF stage in 1924, 11 years after his first overall GT victory in that race.

Long Live "the Basset"!

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re:

Boonen had 122 pro wins and I don't think the age at which results are obtained should matter in a comparison of palmareses.

Sorry, he had 150 elite wins and 123 UCI wins. Gilbert had 79 elite wins.

I never claimed age should matter when it comes to judging a palmares, i simply said Boonen was a very dependable performer, from an early age on. More so, than Gilbert even at a later age. But you can't deny that 2011 might have unfolded a bit differently for Gilbert, had Valverde not been suspended when Gilbert made a clean sweap from Brabantse Pijl to LBL.

 

[GenericBoonenFan]

Re: Re:

Boonen had 122 pro wins and I don't think the age at which results are obtained should matter in a comparison of palmareses.

Sorry, he had 150 elite wins and 123 UCI wins. Gilbert had 79 elite wins.

I never claimed age should matter when it comes to judging a palmares, i simply said Boonen was a very dependable performer, from an early age on. More so, than Gilbert even at a later age. But you can't deny that 2011 might have unfolded a bit differently for Gilbert, had Valverde not been suspended when Gilbert made a clean sweap from Brabantse Pijl to LBL.

If..If..If...If a potatoe was a fruit, americans wouldn't eat that many fries.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Re: Re:

Boonen had 122 pro wins and I don't think the age at which results are obtained should matter in a comparison of palmareses.

Sorry, he had 150 elite wins and 123 UCI wins. Gilbert had 79 elite wins.

I never claimed age should matter when it comes to judging a palmares, i simply said Boonen was a very dependable performer, from an early age on. More so, than Gilbert even at a later age. But you can't deny that 2011 might have unfolded a bit differently for Gilbert, had Valverde not been suspended when Gilbert made a clean sweap from Brabantse Pijl to LBL.

If..If..If...If a potatoe was a fruit, americans wouldn't eat that many fries.

I mean, I would because they are delicious.

Exactly it is hard to say what would happen if Valverde was there but he wasn't. It is the same thing if the rider in first gets disqualified and second place is awarded first. Who knows if without that first place rider second place would have won.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

If..If..If...If a potatoe was a fruit, americans wouldn't eat that many fries.

owwwkeeeej

The reason why i brought it up, was because Gilbert never had a winning streak like that prior or after. Which was related to my comment about Boonen being a more steady performer throughout his carreer.
But by all means, away.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Re: Re:

1. Bernard Hinault
2. Jacques Anquetil
3. Laurent Jalabert
4. Louison Bobet
5. Raymond Poulidor

Laurent Fignon over Raymond Poulidor.

Yes and Bobet ahead of Jalabert.

I took a closer look at their palmares and I think I overrated Jalabert, so:
1. Bernard Hinault
2. Jacques Anquetil
3. Louison Bobet
4. Raymond Poulidor
5. Laurent Fignon

I keep Poulidor ahead of Fignon but I understand that you rank him above if you look only at victories and not at podiums.

No Richard Virenque? 7 KOMs and 2 TDF podiums is noteworthy. And I'd keep JaJa on the list at #6.
1. Bernard Hinault
2. Jacques Anquetil
3. Louison Bobet
4. Raymond Poulidor
5. Laurent Fignon
6. Laurent Jalabert
7. Richard Virenque

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

1. Bernard Hinault
2. Jacques Anquetil
3. Laurent Jalabert
4. Louison Bobet
5. Raymond Poulidor

Laurent Fignon over Raymond Poulidor.

Yes and Bobet ahead of Jalabert.

I took a closer look at their palmares and I think I overrated Jalabert, so:
1. Bernard Hinault
2. Jacques Anquetil
3. Louison Bobet
4. Raymond Poulidor
5. Laurent Fignon

I keep Poulidor ahead of Fignon but I understand that you rank him above if you look only at victories and not at podiums.

No Richard Virenque? 7 KOMs and 2 TDF podiums is noteworthy. And I'd keep JaJa on the list at #6.
1. Bernard Hinault
2. Jacques Anquetil
3. Louison Bobet
4. Raymond Poulidor
5. Laurent Fignon
6. Laurent Jalabert
7. Richard Virenque

I would have Fignon ahead of Poulidor. He won the Tour two years in a row and won a Giro and had three podiums. Poulidor only won the Vuelta but had nine podiums.

 

[AnatoleNovak]

Poulidor also has 4 podiums at the worlds, 1st and 2nd in MSR, twice 3rd in Lombardia, 3rd in Liege, 1st and 2nd in Fleche Wallone and also 3rd in Paris-Tours. He also was 6 times on the podium at the Dauphiné (with 2 victories), 4 times at Paris-Nice (with 2 victories).

 

[rghysens]

Not my country, but for fun:

Luxemburg:
1) Francois Faber
2) Charly Gaul
3) Nicolas Frantz
4) Andy Schleck
5) Frank Schleck

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

Poulidor also has 4 podiums at the worlds, 1st and 2nd in MSR, twice 3rd in Lombardia, 3rd in Liege, 1st and 2nd in Fleche Wallone and also 3rd in Paris-Tours. He also was 6 times on the podium at the Dauphiné (with 2 victories), 4 times at Paris-Nice (with 2 victories).

Fignon also won Flech Wallone, Milan San Remo twice, Criterium International three times, GP Des Nations, Baracchi Trophy,Paris-Camembert, Paris-Nice but I agree that Poulidor had the better record outside Grand Tours. The four podiums at the Worlds is impressive.

 

[AnatoleNovak]

Re: Re:

Poulidor also has 4 podiums at the worlds, 1st and 2nd in MSR, twice 3rd in Lombardia, 3rd in Liege, 1st and 2nd in Fleche Wallone and also 3rd in Paris-Tours. He also was 6 times on the podium at the Dauphiné (with 2 victories), 4 times at Paris-Nice (with 2 victories).

Fignon also won Flech Wallone, Milan San Remo twice, Criterium International three times, GP Des Nations, Baracchi Trophy,Paris-Camembert, Paris-Nice but I agree that Poulidor had the better record outside Grand Tours. The four podiums at the Worlds is impressive.

Yes, their palmares are close.
Concerning the Criterium International, Poulidor won it 5 times and was 3 times 2nd.
Concerning the GP des Nations, Poulidor won it too (he was also once 2nd and once 3rd, and Fignon was also twice 2nd).