Rant about amature dopers

[shawnrohrbach]

Oh, now while taking me to the gallows, be sure to write Douchebag on my head for all to see.

Seriously folks, it is cycling nothing more nothing less.

Yes, you're right. It's just a game, an amusement, something fun to do to keep fit. That's it. Nothing more nothing less. So, if you dope, why do you ratchet it up? What is the compelling need to win if it is nothing more than an amusement? I am asking an honest question here. The ethics found in a Judeo-Christian, or a Muslim, or a Hindi or even a Taoist culture suggests this type of activity lacks integrity at the very least, and the psychologists I know have some theories about people who have a need to win that is so compelling they cheat, and their prognosis is not pretty. Finally, and I alluded to this in a thread last year sometime, I gained personal access to some cyclists in Seattle, Los Angeles, San Diego, Denver and Salt Lake City who race at the amateur to professional level while researching my novel and while I gained insight into their desire to dope, to a person I despise them all. One of them was so aggressive, insulting and told so many blatant lies as I got to know him, I just told him I couldn't talk to him anymore. It must be a frightful world, indeed a scary one, that a guy has to cheat to win a little medal and get mentioned on cyclingnews.com to make him feel better.

 

[Oldman]

Yes, you're right. It's just a game, an amusement, something fun to do to keep fit. That's it. Nothing more nothing less. So, if you dope, why do you ratchet it up? What is the compelling need to win if it is nothing more than an amusement? I am asking an honest question here. The ethics found in a Judeo-Christian, or a Muslim, or a Hindi or even a Taoist culture suggests this type of activity lacks integrity at the very least, and the psychologists I know have some theories about people who have a need to win that is so compelling they cheat, and their prognosis is not pretty. Finally, and I alluded to this in a thread last year sometime, I gained personal access to some cyclists in Seattle, Los Angeles, San Diego, Denver and Salt Lake City who race at the amateur to professional level while researching my novel and while I gained insight into their desire to dope, to a person I despise them all. One of them was so aggressive, insulting and told so many blatant lies as I got to know him, I just told him I couldn't talk to him anymore. It must be a frightful world, indeed a scary one, that a guy has to cheat to win a little medal and get mentioned on cyclingnews.com to make him feel better.

If you're going to be a journalist you'll need a stronger subject detachment and more objectivity. If people performing in sport prompt a reaction so extreme you might want to look at your motivations. I agree with you on all ethical transgressions these folks commit but each person's reasons and mindset are different and deserve individual justice, somewhere. I can't say where it will come.

 

[Berzin]

If you're going to be a journalist you'll need a stronger subject detachment and more objectivity. If people performing in sport prompt a reaction so extreme you might want to look at your motivations. I agree with you on all ethical transgressions these folks commit but each person's reasons and mindset are different and deserve individual justice, somewhere. I can't say where it will come.

Excellent post. I've tried to delve into this and got hammered for it. The types of people that engage in this behavior on an amateur level run the gamut from the nicest of guys to the biggest of a-holes. If we want understand why it occurs, then it would good not to paint them all with the same brush. We're not going to get anywhere by calling them names and despising them.

One thing we need to come to grips with is the hypocritical Puritan work ethic that is espoused by some of these bozos. This is what offends me the most. How some of these guys constantly berate and criticize other riders for not working hard enough and blah blah blah, for not going out in the pouring rain to do seven hours when they themselves are doping and have the ability to train harder than the average ham-and-egger because of the 'roids.

For some of these guys, cycling is no longer a sport. It is an obsession fueled by insecurity and a desire to be known for something, even if it's on a local level. You have the guys who have no real talent at cycling but surround themselves with these constant critics and think that PEDs are the way to improve so that they can belong in the exclusive club of local "hammerheads". So when they stroll into the bike shop their name rings out, and it gives them a lift.

Does this sound pathetic? Maybe. But if we can spare ourselves the judgmental, self-righteous vitriol for a moment maybe we can understand how and why people resort to using drugs in the amateur ranks.

 

[Bobby700c]

Excellent post. I've tried to delve into this and got hammered for it. The types of people that engage in this behavior on an amateur level run the gamut from the nicest of guys to the biggest of a-holes. If we want understand why it occurs, then it would good not to paint them all with the same brush. We're not going to get anywhere by calling them names and despising them.

One thing we need to come to grips with is the hypocritical Puritan work ethic that is espoused by some of these bozos. This is what offends me the most. How some of these guys constantly berate and criticize other riders for not working hard enough and blah blah blah, for not going out in the pouring rain to do seven hours when they themselves are doping and have the ability to train harder than the average ham-and-egger because of the 'roids.

For some of these guys, cycling is no longer a sport. It is an obsession fueled by insecurity and a desire to be known for something, even if it's on a local level. You have the guys who have no real talent at cycling but surround themselves with these constant critics and think that PEDs are the way to improve so that they can belong in the exclusive club of local "hammerheads". So when they stroll into the bike shop their name rings out, and it gives them a lift.

Does this sound pathetic? Maybe. But if we can spare ourselves the judgmental, self-righteous vitriol for a moment maybe we can understand how and why people resort to using drugs in the amateur ranks.

I think it's quite simple - people who dope at amateur level are insecure, and need to appear superior in the eyes of others to feel good about themselves. They couldn't gain any personal satisfaction from results gained through doping, because obviously they know that they have cheated. At pro level obviously money becomes a motivating factor to dope, but certainly I can think of quite a few pro riders who I can imagine needed results to give their ego a boost.

 

[shawnrohrbach]

If you're going to be a journalist you'll need a stronger subject detachment and more objectivity. If people performing in sport prompt a reaction so extreme you might want to look at your motivations. I agree with you on all ethical transgressions these folks commit but each person's reasons and mindset are different and deserve individual justice, somewhere. I can't say where it will come.

I have never aspired to be a journalist. I write fiction and creative non-fiction and I have no problem taking strong positions in my work. My work is not meant to be objective, but rather creative and hopefully interesting and entertaining enough to motivate readers to read more. But thanks for the comments.

 

[Oldman]

I have never aspired to be a journalist. I write fiction and creative non-fiction and I have no problem taking strong positions in my work. My work is not meant to be objective, but rather creative and hopefully interesting and entertaining enough to motivate readers to read more. But thanks for the comments.

My mistake on the nature of your journalism. Certainly your passion should be part of the work. Hopefully you don't have as strong a reaction to people as your post implied as that is alot of wasted energy in my long experience. There is no shortage of ignorant and manipulative people.

 

[Oldman]

Excellent post. I've tried to delve into this and got hammered for it. The types of people that engage in this behavior on an amateur level run the gamut from the nicest of guys to the biggest of a-holes. If we want understand why it occurs, then it would good not to paint them all with the same brush. We're not going to get anywhere by calling them names and despising them.

One thing we need to come to grips with is the hypocritical Puritan work ethic that is espoused by some of these bozos. This is what offends me the most. How some of these guys constantly berate and criticize other riders for not working hard enough and blah blah blah, for not going out in the pouring rain to do seven hours when they themselves are doping and have the ability to train harder than the average ham-and-egger because of the 'roids.

For some of these guys, cycling is no longer a sport. It is an obsession fueled by insecurity and a desire to be known for something, even if it's on a local level. You have the guys who have no real talent at cycling but surround themselves with these constant critics and think that PEDs are the way to improve so that they can belong in the exclusive club of local "hammerheads". So when they stroll into the bike shop their name rings out, and it gives them a lift.
Does this sound pathetic? Maybe. But if we can spare ourselves the judgmental, self-righteous vitriol for a moment maybe we can understand how and why people resort to using drugs in the amateur ranks.

Very much agree. It is a seems to be a societal thing present in most sporting countries that have media. I wonder what the likelihood of PED mischief or cheating would be out of the limelight, say in a more isolated culture? Cycling has always had it's press but your characterization clearly suggests acceptance among a group is the motivation when; even financial reward is potentially a negative. Is this more of a modern societal influence?

 

[shawnrohrbach]

Excellent post. I've tried to delve into this and got hammered for it. The types of people that engage in this behavior on an amateur level run the gamut from the nicest of guys to the biggest of a-holes. If we want understand why it occurs, then it would good not to paint them all with the same brush. We're not going to get anywhere by calling them names and despising them.

One thing we need to come to grips with is the hypocritical Puritan work ethic that is espoused by some of these bozos. This is what offends me the most. How some of these guys constantly berate and criticize other riders for not working hard enough and blah blah blah, for not going out in the pouring rain to do seven hours when they themselves are doping and have the ability to train harder than the average ham-and-egger because of the 'roids.

For some of these guys, cycling is no longer a sport. It is an obsession fueled by insecurity and a desire to be known for something, even if it's on a local level. You have the guys who have no real talent at cycling but surround themselves with these constant critics and think that PEDs are the way to improve so that they can belong in the exclusive club of local "hammerheads". So when they stroll into the bike shop their name rings out, and it gives them a lift.
Does this sound pathetic? Maybe. But if we can spare ourselves the judgmental, self-righteous vitriol for a moment maybe we can understand how and why people resort to using drugs in the amateur ranks.

This is the impression I had coming away from my research interviews. The only things I would add would be the blatant narcicism and the negative personalitiy disorders found in every single cyclist I interviewed who freely admitted to doping.

 

[zealot66]

It surely is an issue of ego and the need to be recognized even in a small way. I encountered this in my former life as a professional mixed martial artist and trainer. You have young men with no real prospects in life, they see sport as a way to manifest themselves and their 'itness'. Many of the people I trained with used juice and prided themselves on their build, their aggression but it didnt always translate into wins but if they wore the right clothes fought in the right events, hung with the famous crowd, they were incredibly satisfied with themselves and believed that people 'knew who they were'. At the end of the day, almost all individual sports are a pursuit of inner passion and limits. Competing againts yourself. If you've lost that or never had it then everything else is hollow. And personally, if you aint up for a pro contract, its just a hobby.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

It surely is an issue of ego and the need to be recognized even in a small way. I encountered this in my former life as a professional mixed martial artist and trainer. You have young men with no real prospects in life, they see sport as a way to manifest themselves and their 'itness'. Many of the people I trained with used juice and prided themselves on their build, their aggression but it didnt always translate into wins but if they wore the right clothes fought in the right events, hung with the famous crowd, they were incredibly satisfied with themselves and believed that people 'knew who they were'. At the end of the day, almost all individual sports are a pursuit of inner passion and limits. Competing againts yourself. If you've lost that or never had it then everything else is hollow. And personally, if you aint up for a pro contract, its just a hobby.

Very well said.

 

[Oldman]

It surely is an issue of ego and the need to be recognized even in a small way. I encountered this in my former life as a professional mixed martial artist and trainer. You have young men with no real prospects in life, they see sport as a way to manifest themselves and their 'itness'. Many of the people I trained with used juice and prided themselves on their build, their aggression but it didnt always translate into wins but if they wore the right clothes fought in the right events, hung with the famous crowd, they were incredibly satisfied with themselves and believed that people 'knew who they were'. At the end of the day, almost all individual sports are a pursuit of inner passion and limits. Competing againts yourself. If you've lost that or never had it then everything else is hollow. And personally, if you aint up for a pro contract, its just a hobby.[/QUOTE]

+1111

 

[bobbins]

I've ridden as a pro and elite amateur and can testify that amateur and masters racing has some blatent charging going on. There are rarely any tests caried out and as such very little to discourage people from cheating. There are obviously still some pros that are on the program but amateur racing in countries such as America, Australia, Italy and to a lesser extent France and Belgium it is still rife. The costs of tests are very expensive so to cheat is just a matter of choosing the 'right' races to go to. I think that the national federations need to shoulder some of the responsibility - as far as I am aware, and I may be wrong, there is no way of highlighting concerns about people cheating to the federations - surely it wouldn't be too hard to target these individuals based on tips??

 

[Deagol]

... if you aint up for a pro contract, its just a hobby.

I’ve been saying and thinking this for many years- one reason I would rather “ride” than “train” is that this has always only been a hobby. I don’t need to win, but do enjoy the competition. I’m sure glad I’m not the only one to feel that way. I used to enjoy racing because I could come into it with my laid-back fun attitude and get along well with the other racers and still do OK (not great, but not so bad that it became demoralizing). I noticed that there was a gradual increase in the super high-strung and aggressive attitudes over the last several years and the amount of fun seemed to go down correspondingly. Doping at this level seems ridiculous to me- regardless of the motivation/rationalization/excuse that the amateur dopers would use. If I knew for a fact (instead of just acknowledging the possibility) that a good numbers of guys in my category were actually doping, I would just quit racing…. Not quit riding, but no more racing. The thing is, I have other great hobbies too, so if this bike racing thing gets to be too much, I’ll bail on the whole thing and do something else.

 

[Oldman]

I've ridden as a pro and elite amateur and can testify that amateur and masters racing has some blatent charging going on. There are rarely any tests caried out and as such very little to discourage people from cheating. There are obviously still some pros that are on the program but amateur racing in countries such as America, Australia, Italy and to a lesser extent France and Belgium it is still rife. The costs of tests are very expensive so to cheat is just a matter of choosing the 'right' races to go to. I think that the national federations need to shoulder some of the responsibility - as far as I am aware, and I may be wrong, there is no way of highlighting concerns about people cheating to the federations - surely it wouldn't be too hard to target these individuals based on tips??

There's been much discussion on how to manage testing without witch hunting. I still think that any upgrade from Cat2 to Cat 1 should require tests for several of the races that confirm the upgrade. Adding a minor amount to licenses could cover that testing as there shouldn't be that many upgrades. You'd have to leave Masters testing to bigger regional or National events that could include additional fees to pay for it. If lower catagory riders are jacking and still not winning...there shouldn't be a problem there. Those guys usually fade away.

 

[the big ring]

I've ridden as a pro and elite amateur and can testify that amateur and masters racing has some blatent charging going on. There are rarely any tests caried out and as such very little to discourage people from cheating. There are obviously still some pros that are on the program but amateur racing in countries such as America, Australia, Italy and to a lesser extent France and Belgium it is still rife. The costs of tests are very expensive so to cheat is just a matter of choosing the 'right' races to go to. I think that the national federations need to shoulder some of the responsibility - as far as I am aware, and I may be wrong, there is no way of highlighting concerns about people cheating to the federations - surely it wouldn't be too hard to target these individuals based on tips??

Huh?

I have no idea how much it costs to dope up - but it costs something.

It sounds like you are saying pros (who can afford to and need to perform to keep their jobs and hence have good reason to dope) are maybe doing it, and amateurs (who do not earn money from racing, win much less prize money and do not need to dope to perform to keep their jobs) are ALL (rife = many of them) doing it?

How does your omniscience cover such a large geographical area? Are you constantly on the move and in touch with all these amateurs (ie unpaid racers) and somehow able to get them to admit their guilt?

I race in Aus (masters champs but elite club level) and ... well ... if the guys I race are doping they're doing a shoddy job of it.

 

[Berzin]

I think it's quite simple - people who dope at amateur level are insecure, and need to appear superior in the eyes of others to feel good about themselves. They couldn't gain any personal satisfaction from results gained through doping, because obviously they know that they have cheated. At pro level obviously money becomes a motivating factor to dope, but certainly I can think of quite a few pro riders who I can imagine needed results to give their ego a boost.

It's not quite as simple as you put it, and some things are not as obvious as they may seem.

It is true that to gain access to a certain peer group one must do as they do. One must follow their rules and swallow the hypocrisy of the lifestyle, if in this case it involves doping in cycling.

But what exactly is gained, what has been made clear to those who seek to understand this by your seemingly self-righteous and judgmental tone?

As a matter of fact, I've met more self-centered, overly self-assured and hyper-confident riders who dope and take great pride in the hard work they put into their training regimens without the slightest hint of moral contradiction.

This doesn't really sound like the insecure mopes you categorically dismiss en masse.

 

[Bobby700c]

It's not quite as simple as you put it, and some things are not as obvious as they may seem.

It is true that to gain access to a certain peer group one must do as they do. One must follow their rules and swallow the hypocrisy of the lifestyle, if in this case it involves doping in cycling.

But what exactly is gained, what has been made clear to those who seek to understand this by your seemingly self-righteous and judgmental tone?

As a matter of fact, I've met more self-centered, overly self-assured and hyper-confident riders who dope and take great pride in the hard work they put into their training regimens without the slightest hint of moral contradiction.

This doesn't really sound like the insecure mopes you categorically dismiss en masse.

My post wasn't supposed to come accross as judgemental and self-righteous - that's not really my attitude towards them. Many people do things to fit in, or appear better in the eyes of others - I've been guilty of it many times. I don't think it's a desirable quality though, and so I try to avoid it.

I find it interesting though that you decribe some of these people as 'self-centred, overly self-assured and hyper-confident'. What are you basing this conclusion on? The fact that they appear outwardly to rate themselves very highly? Appearing confident outwardly doesn't necessarily mean that someone isn't insecure - indeed, I believe that many insecure people compensate (and often over-compensate), resulting sometimes in the aggressive and unpleasant demeanour that has been mentioned in this thread.

The bottom line in my opinion is that there are several reasons for doping at amateur level, such as peer pressure / wanting to 'fit in', or wanting to appear superior in the eyes of other people, which I believe are linked to insecurity. Being comfortable with yourself, enjoying a challenge and the satisfaction from overcoming that challenge, and enjoying healthy competition are not reasons for doping.

 

[CycloErgoSum]

There's more than one reason why riders dope, I think. I think Bobby700c is right when he states insecurity and the need to fit in is one of them, while the desire to succeed and win and acheive status is another. Berzin also has apoint that some people are egocentric enough to believe they're entitled to dope and that it doesn't diminish their integrity. As Bobby rebutted here, such egomania may be a 'reaction formation' as psychologists call it to compensate for perceived inabilities.

I have some semi-personal experience of my own with 'doping': my husband rides for fitness and for peace of mind (like I do) and is a mad-keen procycling fan (like me also). Last year he was diagnosed with a pituitary gland tumor and he produces very little testosterone as a result. After trying a few unsuccessful methods to boost his T, his doctor prescribed patches. Instantly he reported feeling stronger whilst riding and recovering quicker. So this could be another reason amateurs dope, doping makes cycling easier and more enjoyable (actually, if you're not competing then it's probably not really doping, although it is potentially very dangerous and a bit stupid without supervision).

 

[Berzin]

I have some semi-personal experience of my own with 'doping': my husband rides for fitness and for peace of mind (like I do) and is a mad-keen procycling fan (like me also). Last year he was diagnosed with a pituitary gland tumor and he produces very little testosterone as a result. After trying a few unsuccessful methods to boost his T, his doctor prescribed patches. Instantly he reported feeling stronger whilst riding and recovering quicker. So this could be another reason amateurs dope, doping makes cycling easier and more enjoyable (actually, if you're not competing then it's probably not really doping, although it is potentially very dangerous and a bit stupid without supervision).

+1 on the highlighted sentence. Now we're getting somewhere. Excellent observation.

 

[tubularglue]

can someone post a link to the cem doping forum, referenced at the beginning of the thread.

thanks

 

[Oldman]

There's more than one reason why riders dope, I think. I think Bobby700c is right when he states insecurity and the need to fit in is one of them, while the desire to succeed and win and acheive status is another. Berzin also has apoint that some people are egocentric enough to believe they're entitled to dope and that it doesn't diminish their integrity. As Bobby rebutted here, such egomania may be a 'reaction formation' as psychologists call it to compensate for perceived inabilities.

I have some semi-personal experience of my own with 'doping': my husband rides for fitness and for peace of mind (like I do) and is a mad-keen procycling fan (like me also). Last year he was diagnosed with a pituitary gland tumor and he produces very little testosterone as a result. After trying a few unsuccessful methods to boost his T, his doctor prescribed patches. Instantly he reported feeling stronger whilst riding and recovering quicker. So this could be another reason amateurs dope, doping makes cycling easier and more enjoyable (actually, if you're not competing then it's probably not really doping, although it is potentially very dangerous and a bit stupid without supervision).

Really good point. It is still hard to fathom that a rider would seek out similar treatment because they are older or hormone deficient and still race with that treatment. I have seasonal allergies that trigger total asthma when I try to go into the red zone; I usually need to get off the bike and sit down. I went to an allergist that prescribed Advair, a daily-use low level steroid. He justified it to me as an "equalizer" giving me no advantage; in his opinion. I started taking it in the off season until it just bugged me...why take anything you don't require in daily life to justify racing? I quit it, suffer through the part of the season that sucks and enjoy the rest of the year. What stuck with me was how quick the Doctor presented me with a built-in justification. At some point you need to quit the competition.

 

[hollywood]

I think Oldman has the right idea here...

If you get sick and need to use a corticosteroid, you shouldn't race for at least 6 months until it completely clears your system. It's just wrong.

If you need an inhaler to breathe properly, just suck it up and stop competing because you were born with defects.

If you take pseduoephedrine for a cold, give yourself an automatic 2yr suspension because it's now illegal to use.

Advair. Holy crap, that is so freaking unfair to the rest of the cat 5's and 50+ riders, you have GOT to stop using that.

We all need to clean up the sport, and it starts right here. No drugs. No supplements. Nothing but vegetables (unless they have performance enhancing properties like beet root), meat (unless they have excess creatine like beef), and nothing other than water or hormone free milk products. (Wine has anti-aging properties so that's a no go as well).

 

[Oldman]

I think Oldman has the right idea here...

If you get sick and need to use a corticosteroid, you shouldn't race for at least 6 months until it completely clears your system. It's just wrong.

If you need an inhaler to breathe properly, just suck it up and stop competing because you were born with defects.

If you take pseduoephedrine for a cold, give yourself an automatic 2yr suspension because it's now illegal to use.

Advair. Holy crap, that is so freaking unfair to the rest of the cat 5's and 50+ riders, you have GOT to stop using that.

We all need to clean up the sport, and it starts right here. No drugs. No supplements. Nothing but vegetables (unless they have performance enhancing properties like beet root), meat (unless they have excess creatine like beef), and nothing other than water or hormone free milk products. (Wine has anti-aging properties so that's a no go as well).

No wine? That's just crazy talk.
My point was I didn't need Advair to do everything else in life but gain some minor relief for racing. It also has enough health risks to eliminate it as a practical matter like so many other prescribed and unprescribed aids.
When doctors sell HGH for rejuvenation make no mistake they are selling something. If someone has legitimate health concerns it shouldn't be our business. If they take it to race to a level they think is their fair level,then it is everyone's business that has to race with them.