Rant about amature dopers

[GCguy5]

FRS published a study that said drinking quercetin raised the ftp of RATS 10%, not humans. Human studies have shown nothing more than a placebo.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/07/phys-ed-will-drinking-make-you-do-it/

 

[BikeCentric]

FRS published a study that said drinking quercetin raised the ftp of RATS 10%, not humans. Human studies have shown nothing more than a placebo.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/07/phys-ed-will-drinking-make-you-do-it/

Oh no, you mean Lance is selling snake oil?! I'm shocked! And to think he was just trying to help all those people who were "tired of being tired."

Now, I disagree with Hollywood's absolutist viewpoint given above (for example, I take a mutli-vitamin a few times a week, drink coffee before my weekend rides, and don't think that puts me in the same category as a blood doper thank you very much) but he does raise a valid point: the majority of suplements are utter trash and complete snake oil.

 

[Kennf1]

FRS published a study that said drinking quercetin raised the ftp of RATS 10%, not humans. Human studies have shown nothing more than a placebo.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/07/phys-ed-will-drinking-make-you-do-it/

This is why it's hard to win the rat race.

 

[hollywood]

So are you trying to say that a study showing no positive performance benefits for humans gives you a clear conscious in using quercetin? Or are you merely pointing out that it's 'snake oil' (along with 99% of the other products out there)?

Oh I love this argument - if you take anything to give you an edge, you have the same mentality as a doper. If you drink coffee for any kind of performance improvement (even getting up and getting going), you are the same as an EPO user. Take a vitamin for athletes or drink Cytomax rather than water ... you might as well blood dope. This sort of absolutist thinking can seem OK when it is what fits your world view, otherwise it's complete bullsh*t.

Just saying that my opinion of your opinion is that your opinion is BS.

Ok Mr. My-Avatar-Says-PHArmstrong. That's EXACTLY what I'm saying.

There's a difference between EARNING money legitimately and STEALING money, would you agree? There is however no difference between stealing $1000 and stealing $10,000, aside from the amount. You stole something that wasn't yours, and you went above and beyond what you could earn legitimately, and you did it for the same reason, with the same mentality.

When you walk into a GNC and say "I need to ride my bike faster and have more endurance", it's done for the same reason a cat 2 cyclist takes a 4000iu shot of EPO every Monday and Friday for a month leading up to the state road race. It's for the same reason, done with the same mentality.

I'm not saying they are the 'same degree' of performance enhancement (because test and epo will get you WAY further than anything from GNC could), but it's this idea of getting ahead with a pill or substance that gets EPO/test/hgh/corticos users to the point they are at!

"All I use is coffee, cytomax, and vitamins."

What do you want, a reward for having a clear conscious and being the 'cleanest' cat 3 in the peloton?

I'll end with this, and this is directed at anyone who has taken anything for any performance benefit. Why did you do it? Did you not think you perform well enough on your own? Did you want to do better than what you could do on your own? What gives you the clear conscious in using it?

 

[Hugh Januss]

So are you trying to say that a study showing no positive performance benefits for humans gives you a clear conscious in using quercetin? Or are you merely pointing out that it's 'snake oil' (along with 99% of the other products out there)?



Ok Mr. My-Avatar-Says-PHArmstrong. That's EXACTLY what I'm saying.

There's a difference between EARNING money legitimately and STEALING money, would you agree? There is however no difference between stealing $1000 and stealing $10,000, aside from the amount. You stole something that wasn't yours, and you went above and beyond what you could earn legitimately, and you did it for the same reason, with the same mentality.

When you walk into a GNC and say "I need to ride my bike faster and have more endurance", it's done for the same reason a cat 2 cyclist takes a 4000iu shot of EPO every Monday and Friday for a month leading up to the state road race. It's for the same reason, done with the same mentality.

I'm not saying they are the 'same degree' of performance enhancement (because test and epo will get you WAY further than anything from GNC could), but it's this idea of getting ahead with a pill or substance that gets EPO/test/hgh/corticos users to the point they are at!

"All I use is coffee, cytomax, and vitamins."

What do you want, a reward for having a clear conscious and being the 'cleanest' cat 3 in the peloton?

I'll end with this, and this is directed at anyone who has taken anything for any performance benefit. Why did you do it? Did you not think you perform well enough on your own? Did you want to do better than what you could do on your own? What gives you the clear conscious in using it?

Why stop there? Training is performance enhancing too. Don't let anyone workout during the week then when race day rolls around it will be a true contest of natural ability.

 

[Oldman]

Why stop there? Training is performance enhancing too. Don't let anyone workout during the week then when race day rolls around it will be a true contest of natural ability.

Believe it or not I've heard Master's racers complain because someone had more time to train than they did. As if they merited another sub-catagory because the had kids, etc. Hollywood's absolutist attitude is extreme, to say the least. There is a measure of truth about supplements and some of the attitudes that come from it. The inflammation level is getting a little high for this subject as you have noted.

 

[mitchman]

If some dude wants to drink rocket fuel to beat me in the 40+ more power to them........I could careless!

Do I race to win? Yes, but I also race because I love it....

I look at it like racing my mtb 1x1.......when I pass the guy on the latest $6500 full on carbon FS MTB, it just makes it more fun.

So it you want to spend your $$ on EPO/Test or whatever, GO FOR IT!!! I'll still beat you A$$ to the line! and you can take that to the bank!

 

[Oldman]

If some dude wants to drink rocket fuel to beat me in the 40+ more power to them........I could careless!

Do I race to win? Yes, but I also race because I love it....

I look at it like racing my mtb 1x1.......when I pass the guy on the latest $6500 full on carbon FS MTB, it just makes it more fun.

So it you want to spend your $$ on EPO/Test or whatever, GO FOR IT!!! I'll still beat you A$$ to the line! and you can take that to the bank!

I tend to agree but have been avoiding National level Master's events because of the clear evidence of juicing. I'm spending real money for a result at those venues and it's not worth the investment of time and money. Otherwise; those morons make racing faster which can be OK. It's hard to consider those type of amateur riders as friends or peers, though. They're delusional cheaters. Hopefully we particpate for some of the social benefits as well.

 

[BikeCentric]

I tend to agree but have been avoiding National level Master's events because of the clear evidence of juicing. I'm spending real money for a result at those venues and it's not worth the investment of time and money. Otherwise; those morons make racing faster which can be OK. It's hard to consider those type of amateur riders as friends or peers, though. They're delusional cheaters. Hopefully we particpate for some of the social benefits as well.

Agreed; I think for those of us with day jobs the regional events are kind of our own special category.

 

[Escarabajo]

...

I'll end with this, and this is directed at anyone who has taken anything for any performance benefit. Why did you do it? Did you not think you perform well enough on your own? Did you want to do better than what you could do on your own? What gives you the clear conscious in using it?

I do it because of my health. As a by-consequence I get the good recovery. I just don't feel that taking EPO would be healthy for me. Somehow I feel that whenever I need a doctor to get a product it might be dangerous or have some detriment to my health. Even though it might help me to cure a disease or illness the sole purpose of needing a doctor for obtaining the product is like a warning sign that there could be some bad side effects, otherwise we would not need the doctor in the first place.

This gets into the gray area discussion I believe.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Oldman]

I do it because of my health. As a by-consequence I get the good recovery. I just don't feel that taking EPO would be healthy for me. Somehow I feel that whenever I need a doctor to get a product it might be dangerous or have some detriment to my health. Even though it might help me to cure a disease or illness the sole purpose of needing a doctor for obtaining the product is like a warning sign that there could be some bad side effects, otherwise we would not need the doctor in the first place.

This gets into the gray area discussion I believe.
Just my 2 cents.

But you're mindset about your health seems solidly in the spirit of good competition. If this is as gray as the discussion gets it's a healthy middle ground. Hollywood draws a hard line but seems to get to the point that, if you expect to get an unearned advantage; that is where you cross the line. Your view looks in line with that and others and is realistic.

 

[GCguy5]

When you walk into a GNC and say "I need to ride my bike faster and have more endurance", it's done for the same reason a cat 2 cyclist takes a 4000iu shot of EPO every Monday and Friday for a month leading up to the state road race. It's for the same reason, done with the same mentality.

It is not the same mentality at all. One person is trying to improve themselves within the rules of the game and the other is trying to improve themselves outside the rules of the game. Like the other guy said, if it were up to you training would be banned too because it will improve your performance.

 

[Bobby700c]

So are you trying to say that a study showing no positive performance benefits for humans gives you a clear conscious in using quercetin? Or are you merely pointing out that it's 'snake oil' (along with 99% of the other products out there)?



Ok Mr. My-Avatar-Says-PHArmstrong. That's EXACTLY what I'm saying.

There's a difference between EARNING money legitimately and STEALING money, would you agree? There is however no difference between stealing $1000 and stealing $10,000, aside from the amount. You stole something that wasn't yours, and you went above and beyond what you could earn legitimately, and you did it for the same reason, with the same mentality.

When you walk into a GNC and say "I need to ride my bike faster and have more endurance", it's done for the same reason a cat 2 cyclist takes a 4000iu shot of EPO every Monday and Friday for a month leading up to the state road race. It's for the same reason, done with the same mentality.

I'm not saying they are the 'same degree' of performance enhancement (because test and epo will get you WAY further than anything from GNC could), but it's this idea of getting ahead with a pill or substance that gets EPO/test/hgh/corticos users to the point they are at!

"All I use is coffee, cytomax, and vitamins."

What do you want, a reward for having a clear conscious and being the 'cleanest' cat 3 in the peloton?

I'll end with this, and this is directed at anyone who has taken anything for any performance benefit. Why did you do it? Did you not think you perform well enough on your own? Did you want to do better than what you could do on your own? What gives you the clear conscious in using it?

Using vitamin and protein supplements cannot be compared to using EPO. Good nutrition is an essential part of training, and supplements are only concentrated versions of things that can be obtained through eating natural food products.

EPO, blood doping, steroids etc. are banned because they artificially enhance your body's ability. Proper nutrition, whether through supplements or natural food, simply maximises one's natural potential. Caffeine is, to me, a borderline case, but let's face it, lots of people drink coffee, it's not harmful in moderation, and it's not going to make anyone a world beater, so I don't see much harm in allowing its usage. That said, if it was banned I would avoid it, but I'm glad it's not as I do like a cup of coffee!

 

[Willy_Voet]

There is a chemical/biochemical distinction to be made between vitamins/supplements and EPO/hGH. These are often clear-cut differences, but in some case (like caffeine) not so clear.

On the one hand you have metabolic substrates that can be found in the grocery store. On the other hand, you have potent signaling agents that shift the body's natural equilibrium.

I started to write out an explanation, but it's late and I have some more important work to do. Use Wikipedia to figure out the difference between using Endurox R4 to recover versus injecting hGH or testosterone.

While two cyclists may both want to recover, the one drinking Endurox is not going at it the same way as the one injecting hGH. The fact that one of these routes can easily be accessed by walking into GNC and the other requires illegal activities can be absolutely correlated with their effects on the body and inherent risk.

Morality? One route is feeding your body, the other route is manipulating it into doing something it wouldn't do naturally. You judge which is more reprehensible.

 

[Ripper]

There's a difference between EARNING money legitimately and STEALING money, would you agree? There is however no difference between stealing $1000 and stealing $10,000, aside from the amount. You stole something that wasn't yours, and you went above and beyond what you could earn legitimately, and you did it for the same reason, with the same mentality.

I'm not even sure how far off the rails you are going here, but doing something within rules is hardly considered cheating.

When you walk into a GNC and say "I need to ride my bike faster and have more endurance", it's done for the same reason a cat 2 cyclist takes a 4000iu shot of EPO every Monday and Friday for a month leading up to the state road race. It's for the same reason, done with the same mentality.

Not even close to the same mentality.

I'm not saying they are the 'same degree' of performance enhancement.

That's good, because that would be stupid.

"All I use is coffee, cytomax, and vitamins." What do you want, a reward for having a clear conscious and being the 'cleanest' cat 3 in the peloton?

Well, I used those as examples. I actually do not use Cytomax. In fact I use pretty much dextrose. I do drink coffee ... I love coffee. And I take calcium and a multi (it makes me feel less guilty when I don't eat my veggies).

Um, I'm not in Cat 3, but glad I can make the claim you suggest!

 

[BigBoat]

do you rely on the usada or wada to be your conscious?
Dope, or don't. Supplement or don't. Buy bling aero wheels that a select few can afford, or don't. Buy a tt bike and spend 3 hours with john cobb, or don't. Let a corrupt agency make the decisions for you, or don't. Remain sheltered on a forum of that believe everyone should conform to the way you think, or don't. Your choice

There's a difference between the Tour de France and a cat 2 race. Its been discussed by now I'm sure. While it might be appropriate to dope on the Pro Tour, there's a difference when it comes to a small race. That was the original point made by the thread starter.

Personally, I find the bling aero equipment amusing but cool. Using acto or doing cycles of epo can be dangerous even for a well off intelligent young man who has the money for the HED wheels. There's moral boundries that society wishes it could control but cannot. Religion to law. There are certainly drug enforcers that sell drugs. The vast majority (I'm talking about cat 1-5 and many U.S. based pros) live under the social contract of not using drugs.

Doping is not good or right. But we do not live in a perfect world. Having a conscious allows most people to easily pick right from wrong. Put yourself in the shoes of a great bike rider who is not willing to use acto (a Deproteinized Hemoderivative of Calf Blood that is obtained by ultra-filtration) or shoot IGF-1 and EPO which can become expensive and stressful to monitor.

 

[Ripper]

There's a difference between the Tour de France and a cat 2 race. Its been discussed by now I'm sure. While it might be appropriate to dope on the Pro Tour, there's a difference when it comes to a small race. That was the original point made by the thread starter.

Good point BigBoat.

In my previous comment, I just roll my eyes rolleyes at the thought of lumping together someone who has clearly juiced/jacked himself up and is finally winning the local crit, to another person who is using Gatoraide Endurance (gasp) and takes a Powergel with ... caffeine (no, don't do it!!)

 

[montel]

I always harp on my riding friends who use "bling aero wheels" in cat 4-5 races and such. I tell them there equipment is beyond category...

 

[Oldman]

I always harp on my riding friends who use "bling aero wheels" in cat 4-5 races and such. I tell them there equipment is beyond category...

But I like getting mine from a sponsor or other subsidized source. If slow racers and tri-geeks don't buy them at retail, train/race proudly on them and then buy some more; I will have to pay more. Like any rider that has a few years of wasted equipment in the inventory: cheap is good for me.

Not in the same catagory as PED's and should be a different subject anyway. Your point is well taken.

 

[mitchman]

Thats so funny b/c here in CO every Cat 4 is roll'n full on carbon wheels, SRM's and all the goodies......if you go to a cross race they'll have a full on SRAM red pit bike. Gives me bike envy when I pull up for the 1/2 race with a bike I pulled out of the trash.......

 

[Oldman]

Thats so funny b/c here in CO every Cat 4 is roll'n full on carbon wheels, SRM's and all the goodies......if you go to a cross race they'll have a full on SRAM red pit bike. Gives me bike envy when I pull up for the 1/2 race with a bike I pulled out of the trash.......

Note who the pack fodder is and buy the stuff next season for nothing. They'll be on to Extreme Bowling or whatever their next big thing is.

 

[Deagol]

Thats so funny b/c here in CO every Cat 4 is roll'n full on carbon wheels, SRM's and all the goodies......if you go to a cross race they'll have a full on SRAM red pit bike. Gives me bike envy when I pull up for the 1/2 race with a bike I pulled out of the trash.......

Not me, I've had the same bike for 5 years now and have no plans to "upgrade" ....
My bike works fine and I can't imagine buying a new one until it no longer functions.
No carbon wheels, no carbon frame, no SRM, not even a heart rate monitor. I think you are right, for the most part, though. It's very competitive mindset for what is (for me, atleast) a hobby. Some of the Cat 4's in CO take this very seriously.

 

[mitchman]

Their so Cat 4 Pro.......

 

[Oldman]

Isn't this s'posed to be spelled Amateur? Otherwise we've been discussing the wrong topic. What would the rant be about A Mature doper?

 

[D Avoid]

Quercetin is recommended for the treatment of hay fever, I've never had it, though people I know got some relief from using it during the summer peak months. I told them about it having read about it in the Observor newpaper magazine section in about 2002.It was in the section for natural remedy's.

I use a number things, best one being, even quantities of Cod liver/hemp/flax and sunflower oils( all organic, forget the shop ****e), if Cod liver not liked then double up on the sunflower. One table spoon daily is all that's required and leads to remarkable increase in both concentration and improved mood. More evenly keeled, I would say if I were not nautically challenged. Pretty much kills off the so called ADHD cycle of play. If you are now thinking I've digressed, you'd have loved me before I started using the 'ead oils.