Rate the 2012 Vuelta a España route

[airstream]

Explain me, please, what a balanced route means? What with what are you gonna balance? As for ITT, there's no regrets for me. Most of the Vuelta contenders are not very good in this discipline and it wouldn't influence drastically. Regardingly mountanious part, it is clearly not the worst route over the last 10 years.

6

 

[just some guy]

Maybe you meant Fleche Wallonne type of racing because no way AGR and especially LBL boils down to only a final ascent's action. Your statement is a bit of insult for these races...

I would argue that AGR often comes down to the last climb in the same way FW does - therefore Ardennes type racing - sprint up hill finish group of Favorites

LBL is different yes

 

[Kvinto]

Explain me, please, what a balanced route means? What with what are you gonna balance? As for ITT, there's no regrets for me. Most of the Vuelta contenders are not very good in this discipline and it wouldn't influence drastically. Regardingly mountanious part, it is clearly not the worst route over the last 10 years.

6

Easily, the Balance measures by correlation between different types of stages (ie stages that suit different riders), if the one type of stages prevails - it's a fail, because i means you create 'hothouse conditions' to the only one type of rider, while this rider (type of rider) won't use all the chances you gave him (in the parcours) because of no need (a an example Schlecks in Pyrenees 2011, they thought no way they gonna lose the race with these quantity of mountains, so did nothing there)

 

[roundabout]

Nah, there's usually some sort of a selection on the Keutenberg while Fleche will have a much larger group sprinting in the end.

 

[Kvinto]

I would argue that AGR often comes down to the last climb in the same way FW does - therefore Ardennes type racing - sprint up hill finish group of Favorites

LBL is different yes

the action in AGR starts well ago the final climb, and it's the main difference

 

[just some guy]

the action in AGR starts well ago the final climb, and it's the main difference

You could if you wanted argue sprint stages also can have action early but you get my point

 

[Kvinto]

You could if you wanted argue sprint stages also can have action early but you get my point

and yet when you look at the size of main group at the bottom of Cauberg and compare it to the group (in a GT) that reaches the final climb with mtf (the only climb of the day or just a climb after 60km of flat) you'll get my point

 

[airstream]

Easily, the Balance measures by correlation between different types of stages (ie stages that suit different riders), if the one type of stages prevails - it's a fail, because i means you create 'hothouse conditions' to the only one type of rider, while this rider (type of rider) won't use all the chances you gave him (in the parcours) because of no need (a an example Schlecks in Pyrenees 2011, they thought no way they gonna lose the race with these quantity of mountains, so did nothing there)

It is far-fetched a bit. A stage with a descent, for instance, can affect on GC, but more often can not. The Schlecks situation can happen for any parcours. Even though there were 2 MTF's, it wouldn't guarantee that the best climbers could be good enough to fire on a particular day.

 

[Kvinto]

It is far-fetched a bit. A stage with a descent, for instance, can affect on GC, but more often can not. The Schlecks situation can happen for any parcours. Even though there were 2 MTF's, it wouldn't guarantee that the best climbers could be good enough to fire on a particular day.

Not quite so, every stage with huge amount of climbing but without a mtf can affect and will affect but it requires much more efforts than on a mtf and that is the case. They (climbers) just don't want to take a risk on such stages because of the huge amount of mtfs where they can gain absolutely the same but with less efforts.

 

[Descender]

It is far-fetched a bit. A stage with a descent, for instance, can affect on GC, but more often can not.

Prove that of I'm calling bull****.

And since you can't prove it no matter how hard you try, I'm calling bull**** now already.

The Schlecks situation can happen for any parcours.

But it's more likely to happen on balanced, varied routes. Is it really that difficult to grasp?

Not quite so, every stage with huge amount of climbing but without a mtf can affect and will affect but it requires much more efforts than on a mtf and that is the case. They (climbers) just don't want to take a risk on such stages because of the huge amount of mtfs where they can gain absolutely the same but with less efforts.

Hear, hear!

 

[airstream]

Hm, I don't get what you are getting at. Anyway, all battles in the mountains no matter what MTF or finish after descent come down to contention in pure climbing strength. Yea, descent itself can give some gaps, but it always happens rather due to some concatenation of circumstances.
I'm sure 95% of stage like that are doomed to have very conservative riding, inspite of Bale'10 or Gap and the other cases.

Its not about to grasp or not. Probably, I just disagree with that theory of balance of parcours.

 

[Kvinto]

Hm, I don't get what you are getting at. Anyway, all battles in the mountains no matter what MTF or finish after descent come down to contention in pure climbing strength. Yea, descent itself can give some gaps, but it always happens rather due to some concatenation of circumstances.
I'm sure 95% of stage like that are doomed to have very conservative riding, inspite of Bale'10 or Gap and the other cases.

Its not about to grasp or not. Probably, I just disagree with that theory of balance of parcours.

Yeah, you don’t get. Of course it’s all about the pure climbing strength. But the issue is that having the only mountain along the stage and this mountain being a mtf and especially if the profile of this mountain has the steepest part on the last km you get a massive 5min of excitement . Why is it so? Just because the route offered the only place to actually attack (I hope you get what a place it is). I want the route to offer several places to attack, as Descender told earlier in this thread I want an hour of action instead of 15min. Downhill finishes are just one of methods of doing so (not an absolute truth). No offence to MTFs at all, for instance, I’d like to have a profile of a stage (with mtf) where a penultimate climb is a lot harder than the final mtf, I want to make the climber attack 40km to go (but not 2km to the line). Why the hell is it so hard to get?!

And (about the balance) tbh, in the end I have no idea what are you disagree with…

 

[Descender]

Hm, I don't get what you are getting at. Anyway, all battles in the mountains no matter what MTF or finish after descend come down to contention in pure climbing strength. Yea, descent itself can give some gaps, but it always happens rather due to some concatenation of circumstances.
I'm sure 95% of stage like that are doomed to have very conservative riding, inspite of Bale'10 or Gap and the other cases.

You are wrong. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but that's just the way it is.

Actually, you're getting it all backwards. You are saying mountain stages that finish on a descent are more doomed to conservative riding than MTFs? How, by forcing the riders to attack from farther out???

About your 95%, let's look at great stages with a finish after the descent in the last 5 years:

La Thuile 2006, Morzine 2006, Granada 2006, Briançon 2007, Loudenville 2007, Bagneres-de-Bigorre 2008, Le Gran Bornand 2009, Grappa 2010, Madeleine 2010, Balès 2010, Gap 2011, Pinerolo 2011, Cordoba 2011.

Now if you feel like it, do the math relative to the total number of mountain stages finishing after a descent in GTs in those years. Then do the same math with MTFs. And then come back and tell me with a straight face 95% of those stages are doomed to conservative riding.

 

[Descender]

And it is NOT all about the climbing strength.

Where exactly did Vincenzo Nibali break loose from his companions in the Grappa stage in 2010, or the Liquigas team in the Cordoba stage in this past Vuelta? Where did David Arroyo bring back the time lost in the Mortirolo-Aprica stage of 2010? Where did the great Paolo Savoldelli earn his name? Where did Andy Schleck lose most of his chances to win the last TdF? Where did Peter Sagan catch Damiano Cunego in the last Tour de Suisse's queen stage?

Am I the only one seeing this??

 

[Señor_Contador]

And it is NOT all about the climbing strength.

Where exactly did Vincenzo Nibali break loose from his companions in the Grappa stage in 2010, or the Cordoba stage in this past Vuelta? Where did David Arroyo bring back the time lost in the Mortirolo-Aprica stage of 2010? Where did the great Paolo Savoldelli earn his name? Where did Andy Schleck lose most of his chances to win the last TdF? Where did Peter Sagan catch Damiano Cunego in the last Tour de Suisse's queen stage?

Am I the only one seeing this??

I concur.

I think that some people seem to overestimate big-climb stages and miss the forest for the trees.

 

[Parrulo]

You are wrong. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but that's just the way it is.

Actually, you're getting it all backwards. You are saying mountain stages that finish on a descent are more doomed to conservative riding than MTFs? How, by forcing the riders to attack from farther out???

About your 95%, let's look at great stages with a finish after the descent in the last 4 years:

La Thuile 2006, Morzine 2006, Granada 2006, Briançon 2007, Loudenville 2007, Bagneres-de-Bigorre 2008, Le Gran Bornand 2009, Grappa 2010, Madeleine 2010, Balès 2010, Gap 2011, Pinerolo 2011, Cordoba 2011.

Now if you feel like it, do the math relative to the total number of mountain stages finishing after a descent in GTs in those years. Then do the same math with MTFs. And then come back and tell me with a straight face 95% of those stages are doomed to conservative riding.

And it is NOT all about the climbing strength.

Where exactly did Vincenzo Nibali break loose from his companions in the Grappa stage in 2010, or the Cordoba stage in this past Vuelta? Where did David Arroyo bring back the time lost in the Mortirolo-Aprica stage of 2010? Where did the great Paolo Savoldelli earn his name? Where did Andy Schleck lose most of his chances to win the last TdF? Where did Peter Sagan catch Damiano Cunego in the last Tour de Suisse's queen stage?

Am I the only one seeing this??

quoted for the absolute truth.

 

[hfer07]

And it is NOT all about the climbing strength.

Where exactly did Vincenzo Nibali break loose from his companions in the Grappa stage in 2010, or the Cordoba stage in this past Vuelta? Where did David Arroyo bring back the time lost in the Mortirolo-Aprica stage of 2010? Where did the great Paolo Savoldelli earn his name? Where did Andy Schleck lose most of his chances to win the last TdF? Where did Peter Sagan catch Damiano Cunego in the last Tour de Suisse's queen stage?

Am I the only one seeing this??

I'm with you as well - It's a pity indeed the Vuelta didn't include that kind of stage finish...

 

[Kvinto]

And it is NOT all about the climbing strength.

You're right,

But in this certain case i'm trying to get to the guy, that The Route offers places where the rider can use his climbing strength and the more such places are along the route, the better it is and if i try to argue that climbing strength is not the only method of creating gaps in mountain stages, i'd probably go mad

 

[airstream]

Basso cut the opponents into two halves on that stage. In terms of GC the decent factor had only a nominal meaning. As well as Evans would never let Nibali go on the decent from Monte Grappa if it had his primarily goal. He just donated the stage. In 2007 very likely they would have finished together in Briancon if there hadn't appeared a happy chance to kill Vinokourov. In short, I agree with you from the spectacle view point, but not as for over importance of a descent in GC and descents definitely don't provoke attacks in advance, though it's debatable. Probably, Nibali's move on the descent from Giau is a real attack for you, for me it was a slight probing with no tension.

Thanks for expanded explanations, guys.

 

[Descender]

Basso cut the opponents into two halves on that stage. In terms of GC the decent factor had only a nominal meaning. As well as Evans would never let Nibali go on the decent from Monte Grappa if it had his primarily goal. He just donated the stage. In 2007 very likely they would have finished together in Briancon if there hadn't been appear a happy chance to kill Vinokourov. In short, I agree with you from the spectacle view point, but not as for over importance of a descent in GC and descents definitely don't provoke attacks in advance, though it's debatable. Probably, Nibali's move on the descent from Giau is a real attack for you, for me it was a slight probing with no tension.

Thanks for expanded explanations, guys.

Obviously I completely disagree. I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this discussion.

 

[LaFlorecita]

A 7. A few real mountain stages, and I might have given it an 8, or maybe even a 9.

 

[TheEnoculator]

I'm quite excited about this year's Vuelta. I haven't looked at the detailed parcours yet, but with so many summit finishes, Rodriguez might finally win it all. And Andy Schleck thinks he can win the TT-heavy Tour and disses mountainous Vuelta. What a fool.

 

[Parrulo]

Obviously I completely disagree. I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this discussion.

ofc not, after all you are discussing with airstream . . .

now airstream did you just said on your last post that evans let nibali go on the monte grappa stage and pretty much "offered" him the stage win? because if thats actually what you are trying to say than that's one of the most hilarious things ever posted on this forum

 

[hfer07]

by looking more & more the Vuelta parcours I just realized............................




this 2012 edition is the Ideal for an 100% in shape VALVERDE

 

[airstream]

ofc not, after all you are discussing with airstream . . .

now airstream did you just said on your last post that evans let nibali go on the monte grappa stage and pretty much "offered" him the stage win? because if thats actually what you are trying to say than that's one of the most hilarious things ever posted on this forum

Yeah, in my mind, it was a little tactical concession for the sake of a big strategical benefit, considering the next stage. I don't know any other GT rider, who would try to close such attack, being in the situation Evans turned out to be. Very smart riding by him.