Valverde is sometimes contempt with keeping his place. He is a classy rider but I hate his mentality at times. Perhaps Nairo's cowardice is related?
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Nibali was very conservative in his first GTs. He was even considered a wheelsucker on this forum up until 2012.hrotha said:
8 out of the top 10 GC on that penultimate stage "showed no ambition" when they had narrow time gaps. They all assessed the risks vs the likely outcome and they all came to the same conclusion.
But, hey, what would they know. They didn't have the view you had from your sofa
But, hey, what would they know. They didn't have the view you had from your sofa
Eshnar
Moderator
Re:
Not really, it was just a meme from D_T (iirc) who complained about him never attacking in the Vuelta he won in 2010. Which was already very debatable since Nibali was already very aggressive in the Giro 2010.
Bulls*. The risk and the likely outcome was not the same for everyone. Froome was in yellow, Bardet and Quintana had their podium, Porte was too far from the podium to take it with just a descent attack. The only one with a realistic shot at it was Yates. If you can't see it I suggest you change your sofa instead. Or do you think Bardet hallucinated on stage 19 and saw no risk and all rewards? He just went for it. And surprise surprise, he got what he wanted and more.kwikki said:8 out of the top 10 GC on that penultimate stage "showed no ambition" when they had narrow time gaps. They all assessed the risks vs the likely outcome and they all came to the same conclusion.
But, hey, what would they know. They didn't have the view you had from your sofa
.SafeBet said:
Not really, it was just a meme from D_T (iirc) who complained about him never attacking in the Vuelta he won in 2010. Which was already very debatable since Nibali was already very aggressive in the Giro 2010.
Sky wasn't riding to control every attack on the Joux-Plane. They only had to ride a decent pace to make sure Froome wouldn't lose 4 minutes. That's why they were there with 5 guys.
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But Yates didn't have the form for it. From my sofa (very comfortable, thank you for asking) I didn't see the white jersey on Froome's wheel for the entire race, with a malevolent grin playing across his face as he thought how best to irritate the CN forum. I daw him at the back of the group of favourites every time, yo-yoing, getting dropped quite often but making his way back on gradually - with basically no team support. It doesn't seem to take that much imagination to consider that he might just have been cooked - too cooked for the flat after the descent. Riders sometimes are just tired. (Also, I love the idea of him getting a gap on the descent just by sheer force of will, when he's not an especially good descender and Valverde and Bardet - who are - would have been working to draw them back.)
Hrotha's right on the sofa cliché, though.
Eshnar said:Bulls*. The risk and the likely outcome was not the same for everyone. Froome was in yellow, Bardet and Quintana had their podium, Porte was too far from the podium to take it with just a descent attack. The only one with a realistic shot at it was Yates. If you can't see it I suggest you change your sofa instead. Or do you think Bardet hallucinated on stage 19 and saw no risk and all rewards? He just went for it. And surprise surprise, he got what he wanted and more.kwikki said:8 out of the top 10 GC on that penultimate stage "showed no ambition" when they had narrow time gaps. They all assessed the risks vs the likely outcome and they all came to the same conclusion.
But, hey, what would they know. They didn't have the view you had from your sofa
.SafeBet said:
Not really, it was just a meme from D_T (iirc) who complained about him never attacking in the Vuelta he won in 2010. Which was already very debatable since Nibali was already very aggressive in the Giro 2010.
But Yates didn't have the form for it. From my sofa (very comfortable, thank you for asking) I didn't see the white jersey on Froome's wheel for the entire race, with a malevolent grin playing across his face as he thought how best to irritate the CN forum. I daw him at the back of the group of favourites every time, yo-yoing, getting dropped quite often but making his way back on gradually - with basically no team support. It doesn't seem to take that much imagination to consider that he might just have been cooked - too cooked for the flat after the descent. Riders sometimes are just tired. (Also, I love the idea of him getting a gap on the descent just by sheer force of will, when he's not an especially good descender and Valverde and Bardet - who are - would have been working to draw them back.)
Hrotha's right on the sofa cliché, though.
Re: Re:
Calling somebody's post bullsh^t isn't very conducive to polite discussion. We can have different opinions without being insulting.
As Cannibal has pointed out to you the likely outcome of a Yates attack would have been nothing. But the risks on a rainy descent were considerable, especially considering the fatigue from 3 weeks of racing, and having just raced up a mountain.
Eshnar said:Bulls*. The risk and the likely outcome was not the same for everyone. Froome was in yellow, Bardet and Quintana had their podium, Porte was too far from the podium to take it with just a descent attack. The only one with a realistic shot at it was Yates. If you can't see it I suggest you change your sofa instead. Or do you think Bardet hallucinated on stage 19 and saw no risk and all rewards? He just went for it. And surprise surprise, he got what he wanted and more.kwikki said:8 out of the top 10 GC on that penultimate stage "showed no ambition" when they had narrow time gaps. They all assessed the risks vs the likely outcome and they all came to the same conclusion.
But, hey, what would they know. They didn't have the view you had from your sofa
.SafeBet said:
Not really, it was just a meme from D_T (iirc) who complained about him never attacking in the Vuelta he won in 2010. Which was already very debatable since Nibali was already very aggressive in the Giro 2010.
Calling somebody's post bullsh^t isn't very conducive to polite discussion. We can have different opinions without being insulting.
As Cannibal has pointed out to you the likely outcome of a Yates attack would have been nothing. But the risks on a rainy descent were considerable, especially considering the fatigue from 3 weeks of racing, and having just raced up a mountain.
Eshnar
Moderator
Re: Re:
Isn't the sofa cliche' insulting tho? We all have eyes to see, regardless of our athleticism or how many watts we can make on a bike.kwikki said:
Yes there was a risk and being ambitious means what it means. As much as the risk was I do not think attacking would have been foolish by any means. And I repeat there's no way he couldn't have held any kind of gap in 1.6 km. Yates had the legs to sprint with Valverde. He was not totally spent at all.kwikki said:
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Yates was dropped by Purito and others the day before on St. Gervais - Mt. Blanc / Le Bettex. It would have been a dumb move for him to attack with so many other riders close by.Eshnar said:
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Good for him then that the end of the stage wasn't only uphill.18-Valve. (pithy) said:
Eshnar
Moderator
Re: Re:
But so many riders close to him...? Only Porte was at less than a minute from him. Aru was nowhere to be seen and Valverde was at 1'40''... Basically the risk (barring injuries) was arriving 5th.
It would be dumb to try and go for 3rd while risking to drop to 5th? Seems a pretty fair trade to me.
And again... my problem is that it beats me how can anybody say it showed ambitiousness.
*** I forgot he was dropped18-Valve. (pithy) said:
But so many riders close to him...?
Only Porte was at less than a minute from him. Aru was nowhere to be seen and Valverde was at 1'40''... Basically the risk (barring injuries) was arriving 5th.It would be dumb to try and go for 3rd while risking to drop to 5th? Seems a pretty fair trade to me.
And again... my problem is that it beats me how can anybody say it showed ambitiousness.
Re: Re:
I already covered that in a previous post. The descent was wet and dangerous - no point in taking big risks when you're 4th and have little chance of overtaking the next guy. Quintana isn't a sh*t descender.Netserk said:
Eshnar
Moderator
Re: Re:
Did Quintana ever chase anybody on a descent? I remember him letting AC go at the Ruta del Sol and Froome go down the Aspin. Never even tried. On dry descents.18-Valve. (pithy) said:
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Did every single one in the break (and Purito), who were faster on the descent than the Sky safety car, take risk in an amount that it was dangerous for them?18-Valve. (pithy) said:
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I don't know about your sofa, but from mine it's really hard to feel how slippery the road is. It's really hard to gauge how dangerous going down the mountain on my sofa might be given that I haven't got 3 weeks of exhaustion affecting my judgement, and vision. But it is really easy to see that every single rider before me sought fit to descend in a superb cautious manner.
So no, I don't think the sofa analogy is insulting...in fact it isn't an analogy, it's the reality for all of us (unless you've got an armchair).
My last word on this topic is this....I'll see you in a year and draw you back to this thread
In the meantime, Shane Stokes is worth a read:
http://cyclingtips.com/2016/07/adam-yates-superb-tour-de-france-aiming-high-with-feet-on-the-ground/
Eshnar said:
I don't know about your sofa, but from mine it's really hard to feel how slippery the road is. It's really hard to gauge how dangerous going down the mountain on my sofa might be given that I haven't got 3 weeks of exhaustion affecting my judgement, and vision. But it is really easy to see that every single rider before me sought fit to descend in a superb cautious manner.
So no, I don't think the sofa analogy is insulting...in fact it isn't an analogy, it's the reality for all of us (unless you've got an armchair).
My last word on this topic is this....I'll see you in a year and draw you back to this thread
In the meantime, Shane Stokes is worth a read:
http://cyclingtips.com/2016/07/adam-yates-superb-tour-de-france-aiming-high-with-feet-on-the-ground/
I voted 2. I found the race extremely boring. Nothing happened, day after day. No attacks, no mano a mano fights. Just Sky, Sky, Sky. My husband and I watched every stage together and I think our most discussed topic during the race was, "Wow, there's yet another abbey! Who know there were so many nuns in the past in France!" And I'm not joking - that was our most common comment on each stage. I felt like we were waiting, waiting, waiting for attacks, for something interesting to happen.
Froome running was a small blip of interest. But worth watching 50+ hours of bike racing for? No. We had NBC Sports Gold and watched every hour. Toward the end I took to reading a book while the race was on in the background.
I hope next year the race is better. We enjoyed this year's Giro far more than this year's Tour. Now time to hope for a good Vuelta.
Froome running was a small blip of interest. But worth watching 50+ hours of bike racing for? No. We had NBC Sports Gold and watched every hour. Toward the end I took to reading a book while the race was on in the background.
I hope next year the race is better. We enjoyed this year's Giro far more than this year's Tour. Now time to hope for a good Vuelta.
Eshnar
Moderator
Re: Re:
As for the article, wow a journalist praising a rider. Never saw this kind of stuff.
Who exactly? Izagirre for example didn't look that cautious. And he won the stage thanks to that. I guess the sensible thing was to just ride with Nibali and Pantano and try to beat them at the sprint right?kwikki said:I don't know about your sofa, but from mine it's really hard to feel how slippery the road is. It's really hard to gauge how dangerous going down the mountain on my sofa might be given that I haven't got 3 weeks of exhaustion affecting my judgement, and vision. But it is really easy to see that every single rider before me sought fit to descend in a superb cautious manner.
So no, I don't think the sofa analogy is insulting...in fact it isn't an analogy, it's the reality for all of us (unless you've got an armchair).
My last word on this topic is this....I'll see you in a year and draw you back to this thread
In the meantime, Shane Stokes is worth a read:
http://cyclingtips.com/2016/07/adam-yates-superb-tour-de-france-aiming-high-with-feet-on-the-ground/
As for the article, wow a journalist praising a rider. Never saw this kind of stuff.
Re: Re:
Eshnar - the Route du Sud descent wasn't televised AFAIK. In any case, it was most likely a case of not taking risks with the Tour in mind. Peyresourde is not a proper descent and no comparison. Once Froome had a gap, Quintana was done (on his own). There should have been an organized chase.
As to the time Yates could have lost on the climb - it could have been a couple minutes for him and Dan Martin. If anyone could have made up some time it was probably Porte (although he was also dropped the day prior, but he had to put in a big effort just before Le Bettex) -- but I'm guessing he had team orders not to attack.
What are you arguing? That if any rider had descended as fast as say, Purito, that Quintana would have been in trouble? He's a good descender.Netserk said:
Eshnar - the Route du Sud descent wasn't televised AFAIK. In any case, it was most likely a case of not taking risks with the Tour in mind. Peyresourde is not a proper descent and no comparison. Once Froome had a gap, Quintana was done (on his own). There should have been an organized chase.
As to the time Yates could have lost on the climb - it could have been a couple minutes for him and Dan Martin. If anyone could have made up some time it was probably Porte (although he was also dropped the day prior, but he had to put in a big effort just before Le Bettex) -- but I'm guessing he had team orders not to attack.
Eshnar
Moderator
Re: Re:
yes, I meant Route du Sud and Peyresourde, not Ruta del Sol or Aspin...
But my point is not that Quintana is a bad descender. It's that a guy who let his main direct opponent for the yellow (at the time he was fighting for it) get away on an easy, dry descent without moving a finger was not likely to suddenly wake up and chase Yates for a podium on a much trickier descent.
wtf did I write18-Valve. (pithy) said:
yes, I meant Route du Sud and Peyresourde, not Ruta del Sol or Aspin... But my point is not that Quintana is a bad descender. It's that a guy who let his main direct opponent for the yellow (at the time he was fighting for it) get away on an easy, dry descent without moving a finger was not likely to suddenly wake up and chase Yates for a podium on a much trickier descent.
When Froome attacked, or Quintana was directly in his wheel and stopped the moment froome stopped.
Or he would look back to see where piti is. That was his tour.
He does nothing else, i wonder what he'll do when piti retires.
Yates is a *** for not trying anything, how can you not? Even when you feel pain in your legs, just try it, even if you blow up. Then do it in the last km orso, you never know. Maybe he'll never podium the tour again.
Or he would look back to see where piti is. That was his tour.
He does nothing else, i wonder what he'll do when piti retires.
Yates is a *** for not trying anything, how can you not? Even when you feel pain in your legs, just try it, even if you blow up. Then do it in the last km orso, you never know. Maybe he'll never podium the tour again.
Re: Re:
I don't think Quintana would just give up on a podium spot in a more typical descent finish in an important race.
Come on now. You know he made a mistake at the top and actually tried to chase him down at first. He just gave up after a few seconds when it was clear that he couldn't keep up with a Froome in full TT-mode and that it was a better bet to wait for the rest. That's what it seemed like to me at least. It's true that he doesn't act like a leader at all - but that whole episode was just a mistake, IMO.Eshnar said:wtf did I write
But my point is not that Quintana is a bad descender. It's that a guy who let his main direct opponent for the yellow (at the time he was fighting for it) get away on an easy, dry descent without moving a finger was not likely to suddenly wake up and chase Yates for a podium on a much trickier descent.
I don't think Quintana would just give up on a podium spot in a more typical descent finish in an important race.
Re: Re:
Slightly confused why only Quintana could possibly chase when Valverde, a much better descender than Yates or Quintana, was still in the group, and Bardet was just 35 seconds up on Yates.
Eshnar said:wtf did I write18-Valve. (pithy) said:
But my point is not that Quintana is a bad descender. It's that a guy who let his main direct opponent for the yellow (at the time he was fighting for it) get away on an easy, dry descent without moving a finger was not likely to suddenly wake up and chase Yates for a podium on a much trickier descent.
Slightly confused why only Quintana could possibly chase when Valverde, a much better descender than Yates or Quintana, was still in the group, and Bardet was just 35 seconds up on Yates.
Eshnar
Moderator
Re: Re:
Ofc he can also fail, everybody jumps on his wheel at the same time like it never happened in recent history and he achieves nothing. But he f'n TRIED.
Valverde is the same guy who didn't follow Nibali in Lombardia. Being a good descender doesn't really say much when the most important thing is being tactically aware. Say Yates attacks, Quintana looks at Valverde, Valverde looks at Froome, Froome says "lol why should I risk anything" and in the meantime Bardet is already gone with Yates. All the better for the australian, who only needed to gap Quintana, Bardet can follow.Cannibal72 said:
Ofc he can also fail, everybody jumps on his wheel at the same time like it never happened in recent history and he achieves nothing. But he f'n TRIED.
Re: Re:
Yeah, Valverde is a singularly atrocious tactician, but I don't think it comes down to anyone following Yates, but to the fact that he'll simply be swept up if Valverde decides to lead the chase down - on the descent or, quite possibly, the flat. My attitude is that Yates, who isn't a great descender and had been fighting to stick with the lead group all Tour, was simply spent - physically, mentally, everything. I think he was just trying to cling on.
(Also, Yates is British, not Australian. )
Eshnar said:
Yeah, Valverde is a singularly atrocious tactician, but I don't think it comes down to anyone following Yates, but to the fact that he'll simply be swept up if Valverde decides to lead the chase down - on the descent or, quite possibly, the flat. My attitude is that Yates, who isn't a great descender and had been fighting to stick with the lead group all Tour, was simply spent - physically, mentally, everything. I think he was just trying to cling on.
(Also, Yates is British, not Australian.
)
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And what happened to eshnar? Aspin, ruta del sol, Australian?
Didn't yates attack on the aspin descent?Cannibal72 said:Eshnar said:
Yeah, Valverde is a singularly atrocious tactician, but I don't think it comes down to anyone following Yates, but to the fact that he'll simply be swept up if Valverde decides to lead the chase down - on the descent or, quite possibly, the flat. My attitude is that Yates, who isn't a great descender and had been fighting to stick with the lead group all Tour, was simply spent - physically, mentally, everything. I think he was just trying to cling on.
(Also, Yates is British, not Australian.
And what happened to eshnar? Aspin, ruta del sol, Australian?
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