Giro d'Italia Rate the 2023 Giro d'Italia Route

[Gigs_98]

Blockhaus is brutal, but let me tell you something, Campo Imperatore shall cause more damage.

I'd really like to hear your rationale behind your thoughts on Campo Imperatore. I just don't see how you are so confident in that finish.

Firstly, no it's not new, it was last used in the Giro just 4 years ago, and even when it was completely new back then it led to boring racing. It's an ultra long climb without any tough gradients before the final 4 km, even then it never reaches the gradients of Blockhaus and it has a pretty long relatively flat section before those final few km's. It's a climb that constantly encourages riders to wait with attacking until later which imo just makes it completely unsuited for a mtf.

 

[yaco]

Interesting that Matt White of BEX says there is nil chance of taking Groenewegen to the Giro - It's interesting because it seems to be a fairly friendly route for sprinters, however the teams usually know more about the specifics of the route. Will be interesting to see the TDF route.

 

[Escarabajo]

There are only 5 "pure" sprinting stages at the Giro. from those 5 you can argue that Groenewegen could be dropped in two of those early depending on how is raced. So I don't know if there is some sarcasm in your post, but if there is not, I have to agree with Matt White. Two of the pure sprinting stages happen at the time when he could be very well eliminated because of time limit.

The days of the pure sprinters are numbered in GTs. Television along with the new competition are driving the pure sprinters to extinction. IMHO.

 

[Extinction]

I'd really like to hear your rationale behind your thoughts on Campo Imperatore. I just don't see how you are so confident in that finish.

Firstly, no it's not new, it was last used in the Giro just 4 years ago, and even when it was completely new back then it led to boring racing. It's an ultra long climb without any tough gradients before the final 4 km, even then it never reaches the gradients of Blockhaus and it has a pretty long relatively flat section before those final few km's. It's a climb that constantly encourages riders to wait with attacking until later which imo just makes it completely unsuited for a mtf.

Because I raced up both Blockhaus and Campo Imperatore, and while, as you say, the two can't be compared in terms of gradients, Campo Imperatore never ends and it's position in 2023 should make for more critical racing. Plus the last 4 Ks after circa 40 of climbing should offer the fireworks we all like to see, like 1999 (especially if the weather is foul). And those last 4 Ks are ugly. Let's wait and see.

 

[Billie]

I voted 7.

The 4 big mountain finishes are obviously all well designed stages with good climbs in sequence. All these stages are up there with the best MTF stages of the last years which is obviously great

But the bigger picture, it's quit easy to find some faults in the route. The pacing is obviously nog great with Tre Cime and the MTT at the end. The lack of descent finishes is obviously a shame, especially for il Giro which recently has been the only GT to still take these type of finishes seriously. And I also would like to have seen another nice hilly stage next to Fossombrone.

Anybody that thinks this is a timetrialers route is definately mistaken though. This is for the climbers. That final TT is 13 minutes on the flat and 35 minutes uphill.

 

[Extinction]

I voted 7.

The 4 big mountain finishes are obviously all well designed stages with good climbs in sequence. All these stages are up there with the best MTF stages of the last years which is obviously great

But the bigger picture, it's quit easy to find some faults in the route. The pacing is obviously nog great with Tre Cime and the MTT at the end. The lack of descent finishes is obviously a shame, especially for il Giro which recently has been the only GT to still take these type of finishes seriously. And I also would like to have seen another nice hilly stage next to Fossombrone.

Anybody that thinks this is a timetrialers route is definately mistaken though. This is for the climbers. That final TT is 13 minutes on the flat and 35 minutes uphill.

The Giro is always a climbers route, except when a certain Francesco Moser is riding it with help from a helicopter.

 

[Big Doopie]

i was going to give it a 10.

then i saw the dumb-a$$ gimmick of an MTT and wanted to give it a 0.

but there is no zero possibility in the poll.

 

[Extinction]

i was going to give it a 10.

then i saw the dumb-a$$ gimmick of an MTT and wanted to give it a 0.

but there is no zero possibility in the poll.

While unnecessarily steep and poorly placed, it's merely like a shorter version of the Zoncolon, which in any case becomes like an ITT among those fighting for the Giro. The Corsa Rosa deserved a MTT, but I'd prefer it to be at the start of week three and on a less severe gradient (ranging from say 7-10 percent) of about 15 ks.

 

[SafeBet]

Because I raced up both Blockhaus and Campo Imperatore, and while, as you say, the two can't be compared in terms of gradients, Campo Imperatore never ends and it's position in 2023 should make for more critical racing. Plus the last 4 Ks after circa 40 of climbing should offer the fireworks we all like to see, like 1999 (especially if the weather is foul). And those last 4 Ks are ugly. Let's wait and see.

I'm a fanboy of Campo Imperatore, mainly because of the scenery, but I too believe you're overestimating it.
Unless a team decides to go berserk on the slopes to Calascio (which is unlikely in the first week), no way anything happens before the final 4km. Those gradients are just too easy for a pro.

 

[Extinction]

I'm a fanboy of Campo Imperatore, mainly because of the scenery, but I too believe you're overestimating it.
Unless a team decides to go berserk on the slopes to Calascio (which is unlikely in the first week), no way anything happens before the final 4km. Those gradients are just too easy for a pro.

I probably am overestimating it, however, mainly because it's the first real test for the Bigs, I foresee fireworks in the end. Now I could be wrong, but if I were wagering on which stage delivered more bang for the buck entertainment wise, last Blockhaus or this Campo Imperatore, I'd put my money on the latter. You can take the piss out of me next year if I'm wrong.

 

[Tour de Berghem]

well, you can say that Castellano's Giros sometimes had a bit to many sprint stages, but in general those routes were quite interesting. Especially if you compare to Tour and Vuelta in the same period.

If I think that your opinion is true for Giro 2004 (11 sprinters stage :-OO ) but in general the sprinter's stage were in my opinion the correct number and furthermore well alternated with other interesting stages.

 

[Nick2413]

i was going to give it a 10.

then i saw the dumb-a$$ gimmick of an MTT and wanted to give it a 0.

but there is no zero possibility in the poll.

Why is this MTT bad? Seems like a solid 20+ min of steep climbing would be good to me.

 

[OlavEH]

Why is this MTT bad? Seems like a solid 20+ min of steep climbing

First of all because it comes the day after the potentially toughest mountain stage. And because the MTT ridiculously steep, the top GC riders may be worried that if they use too much energy the day before, they could really crack on the MTT, which means they will be more hesitant to attcack on the Tre Cime stage.

And secondly, it is a matter of opinion if one likes to see long 15+ % climbs like this. I think it's so steep that it isn't real cycling anymore. The riders are just stomping up the climb.

 

[Andy schleck]

Why is this MTT bad? Seems like a solid 20+ min of steep climbing would be good to me.

The MTT is great. My concern about this route, is that it's gonna be a boring giro until stage 13 on crans montana. A lot of bad designed stages, and almost no mountain until stage 13. Lago laceno and campo imperatore will not make differences.

 

[houtdffan]

The MTT is great. My concern about this route, is that it's gonna be a boring giro until stage 13 on crans montana. A lot of bad designed stages, and almost no mountain until stage 13. Lago laceno and campo imperatore will not make differences.

Huh? This giro is going to force riders to be on top of their games for the full 3 weeks. UNless they want to be behind the 8 ball after stages 1 and 9

 

[Extinction]

First of all because it comes the day after the potentially toughest mountain stage. And because the MTT ridiculously steep, the top GC riders may be worried that if they use too much energy the day before, they could really crack on the MTT, which means they will be more hesitant to attcack on the Tre Cime stage.

And secondly, it is a matter of opinion if one likes to see long 15+ % climbs like this. I think it's so steep that it isn't real cycling anymore. The riders are just stomping up the climb.

I agree completely with the first part of your argument and it's shocking that that dimwit Vegni doesn't realize the position of this MTT will all but kill bold attacking on the Tre Cime di Lavaredo stage, which kinda renders a Queen Stage lame and useless. I hope the riders prove us wrong, however.

The second part of your argument, however, I'm less in agreement with, even if I understand your notion that excessively steep climbs "isn't cycling anymore." However, since the 90s, with the introduction of the Mortirolo ascent at the Giro and in the early 2000s Monte Zoncolon (and Angrilu at the Vuelta), serving up a super steep ramp has become a fixture of modern GT racing. So I see it simply as an evolution, however ploy oriented this may be, as race organizers are looking for new climbs to avoid the monotony of going up the same ones year in and year out, while playing on the novelty and toughness aspects to generate interest and TV shares. In this sense, I'm not completely adverse to these new horribly steep introductions, as it actually is interesting to see how the pros tackle them, but the placement of this one in this MTT should have been at the start, not the end, of week three.

 

[OlavEH]

The second part of your argument, however, I'm less in agreement with, even if I understand your notion that excessively steep climbs "isn't cycling anymore." However, since the 90s, with the introduction of the Mortirolo ascent at the Giro and in the early 2000s Monte Zoncolon (and Angrilu at the Vuelta), serving up a super steep ramp has become a fixture of modern GT racing. So I see it simply as an evolution, however ploy oriented this may be, as race organizers are looking for new climbs to avoid the monotony of going up the same ones year in and year out, while playing on the novelty and toughness aspects to generate interest and TV shares. In this sense, I'm not completely adverse to these new horribly steep introductions, as it actually is interesting to see how the pros tackle them, but the placement of this one in this MTT should have been at the start, not the end, of week three.

Mortirolo is less steep than Zoncolan and Lussari, and it also serves as a point for long range attacks. That doesn't apply to neither a MTT or Zoncolan when it is a MTF. And I also think it is a difference between 10-12 % like Mortirolo (okay, it also has a short steeper section, but most of it is 10-12 %) and the last 5k on Fedaia and 15+ % like Zoncolan and Lussari.

 

[gavia88]

Mortirolo is less steep than Zoncolan and Lussari, and it also serves as a point for long range attacks. That doesn't apply to neither a MTT or Zoncolan when it is a MTF. And I also think it is a difference between 10-12 % like Mortirolo (okay, it also has a short steeper section, but most of it is 10-12 %) and the last 5k on Fedaia and 15+ % like Zoncolan and Lussari.

it's actually a pity that those ultra steeps climbs always are the MTF. Zoncalon 60k from the finish would be great to see. Like it would be interesting to see Col de la Loze as second last climb in the tour.

 

[Red Rick]

Lussari would be great as like a stage 9 MTF.

 

[Big Doopie]

Why is this MTT bad? Seems like a solid 20+ min of steep climbing would be good to me.

hate bike changes in TTs.

I also think 5 km at 15% is just dumb. It makes the sport look like a circus, a freak show, pro-wrestling, a gimmick. I don’t like it.

 

[gavia88]

hate bike changes in TTs.

I also think 5 km at 15% is just dumb. It makes the sport look like a circus, a freak show, pro-wrestling, a gimmick. I don’t like it.

are you not exaggerating a bit here? it's not as if those pro-cyclist have to walk here (or jumb over obstacles). It's perfectly doable for them. They only will climb at the speed at which I climb the col da la Schlucht. I don't like this MTT neither (more because of the placement in the route and also the fact that I'm not a big fan of MTT's), but not because I think it's a circus.

 

[Extinction]

Come to think of it riding 250+ k races and GTs seems like a circus to all but the initiated.

 

[OlavEH]

it's actually a pity that those ultra steeps climbs always are the MTF. Zoncalon 60k from the finish would be great to see. Like it would be interesting to see Col de la Loze as second last climb in the tour.

Must admit that I don't care much about Zoncolan. Would rather see them fix Fauniera. And with Mortirolo, Finestre, Stelvio, Fedaia, Colle San Carlo, Giau, etc., in addition, there are a lot of excellent climbs in Italy well suited for aggressive racing.

 

[gavia88]

Must admit that I don't care much about Zoncolan. Would rather see them fix Fauniera. And with Mortirolo, Finestre, Stelvio, Fedaia, Colle San Carlo, Giau, etc., in addition, there are a lot of excellent climbs in Italy well suited for aggressive racing.

I didn't mean to say Zoncolan especifically. But those ultra steep climbs (like in the Vuelta as well) are always the final climb. But we mean to say the same. We would like to see stages that forces attacks than waiting for the steep last kilometers.

 

[OlavEH]

I didn't mean to say Zoncolan especifically. But those ultra steep climbs (like in the Vuelta as well) are always the final climb. But we mean to say the same. We would like to see stages that forces attacks than waiting for the steep last kilometers.

Yep. I agree. Especially in the Vuelta. For the Giro I can't really think of any other climbs than Zoncolan is this category.