RE: transgender women racing against women.

[Biggut]

Reading much of this thread I think the debate is being misrepresented. There are several key points that I would like to put forward. Before I do I would like to clearly stare that anybody should be allowed to identify as any gender they wish or none. Nobody should misgender intentionally. In most social situations trans women can be treated as if they are women. However in some circumstances, such as sport, sex is more relevant than gender. This is not to say that sex is the be all and end all, it’s actually about sex based advantage and there are males with intersex conditions who do not have advantage from their male biology (for example through CAIS) and others who do (through conditions like 5-ARD. In addition the argument is not about dominance it’s about out if category advantage:

1) Nobody is suggesting barring somebody from a category for being trans. Trans women are being excluded for being male not for being trans.

2) The female category exists to exclude male advantage It does not exist due to gender.

3) It is known that male advantage exists. As such the burden is on those who claim that it is removed to evidence that this is the case.

4) It is clearly not the case for anybody who has purely socially transitioned and not undertaken any medical transition. This is the case with the majority of the publicised high school athletes that are impacted by the legislation that is being proposed in many US states

5) In terms of hormone treatment there is no good evidence that demonstrates that male advantage is removed. If you have such evidence then please provide it.

6) The existence of trans men on T doesn’t invalidate the rules. They can be fairly accommodated in the male category rather than competing whilst using powerful PEDs and no amount of T will overcome the advantage of male development.

I completely understand that transwomen wish to be validated as women by competing in women’s sport. But the word woman means adult human female. Sex is highly relevant and sex based advantage is the only reason that segregation is legal. If there were no advantage then there would be no legitimate purpose in segregating.

 

[Biggut]

Re:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

Just to be clear Chris Mosier is absolutely nowhere near elite standard in any sport. His 5km walk time is literally 2 hours outside of the Olympic qualifying standard. He’s the equivalent of a rider who can clock a 70 min 25 Mile TT.

 

[jmdirt]

Off from the OP, but in line with were the conversation has gone: the significant other of a friend's daughter was identified at birth as a male but has live virtually her entire life as a female. She prefers to be identified with female (she/her), but doesn't care if someone uses male (he/his) because it doesn't change her day. She does however dislike "it". IMO she's fortunate that she just looks like a slightly masculine woman so she doesn't have too many issues I don't think. Obviously if you know someone's name its just best to use their name.

I might have posted this earlier in this thread but there is some interesting research about the XY-XX continuum that might be of interest for this discussion.

I'll reply to myself:
Some people see it male or female, XX or XY. But in reality its much more of a continuum. XX_______________________XXXY__________________________XY
Obviously the endocrine system plays a huge role in this discussion.
The difference between XX and XY in the middle is minute and can even be overlapping.

 

[Biggut]

I'll reply to myself:
Some people see it male or female, XX or XY. But in reality its much more of a continuum. XX_______________________XXXY__________________________XY
Obviously the endocrine system plays a huge role in this discussion.
The difference between XX and XY in the middle is minute and can even be overlapping.

Karyotypes are not sexes. There are several atypical variations but even then there are people who have XX but are male , for example. In the case of De La Chappelles syndrome translocation of the SRY gene onto an Chromosome leads to Wolffian development including testes. As such although chromosomes map very accurately to sex they aren’t a perfect match and are not what sex is. Much like most characteristics that people associate with a sex they are purely typically aligned.
In every species that has sexes the defining factor is whether the organism developed toward production of the small or the large gamete. Where somebody has unambiguous gonads then this is clear. Where they do not then further investigation is needed.
As such it should be clear that individual characteristics of sexual development may exist on a spectrum, gonads, karyotype, phenotype, hormone levels, however sex itself is purely male or female.
I’d also point out that if you are arguing that trans women should be allowed to compete in the female class because there is an overlap then you are not making an argument that supports trans women in the female class, you are making one that supports males in the female class and thus that supports getting rid of sex classes altogether and the virtual eradication of elite females in sport.

 

[jmdirt]

Karyotypes are not sexes. There are several atypical variations but even then there are people who have XX but are male , for example. In the case of De La Chappelles syndrome translocation of the SRY gene onto an Chromosome leads to Wolffian development including testes. As such although chromosomes map very accurately to sex they aren’t a perfect match and are not what sex is. Much like most characteristics that people associate with a sex they are purely typically aligned.
In every species that has sexes the defining factor is whether the organism developed toward production of the small or the large gamete. Where somebody has unambiguous gonads then this is clear. Where they do not then further investigation is needed.
As such it should be clear that individual characteristics of sexual development may exist on a spectrum, gonads, karyotype, phenotype, hormone levels, however sex itself is purely male or female.
I’d also point out that if you are arguing that trans women should be allowed to compete in the female class because there is an overlap then you are not making an argument that supports trans women in the female class, you are making one that supports males in the female class and thus that supports getting rid of sex classes altogether and the virtual eradication of elite females in sport.

^^^^^^^^^^^^
IF you are ignoring other points in my post to conclude an IF...

 

[jmdirt]

I'm not going to read through the entire thread to refresh my memory, but it is in the "Enthusiast" section so we aren't talking about top level pro, Olympics, etc. We are talking about people just doing sport for fun. Also we are talking about a very small number of people.

We are making rules/laws about something that negatively affects very few people when we could instead do things that positively affect many people. To answer your question before you ask it: no politicians/governing bodies can't do both for some reason.

 

[Biggut]

I'm not going to read through the entire thread to refresh my memory, but it is in the "Enthusiast" section so we aren't talking about top level pro, Olympics, etc. We are talking about people just doing sport for fun. Also we are talking about a very small number of people.

We are making rules/laws about something that negatively affects very few people when we could instead do things that positively affect many people. To answer your question before you ask it: no politicians/governing bodies can't do both for some reason.

I was replying directly to your mischaracterising karyotype as sex. Do you have any response in that matter? I was replying by explaining why the categories are split this way.

 

[jmdirt]

I was replying directly to your mischaracterising karyotype as sex. Do you have any response in that matter? I was replying by explaining why the categories are split this way.

I didn't, and you weren't, and aren't, so no.

EDIT: You assumed an IF.

But since you replied to THIS post, what does it have to do with the price of tea in China?

 

[Biggut]

Oh but you were. Do you agree that chromosomal variations are not what sexes are and that they aren’t a continuum.

I’d also like to point out that variations in development are nothing whatever to do with transgender issues.

 

[Netserk]

Some transgender adolescents receive blocking/stopping hormones early enough, so that they don't go through their normally expected puberty. I don't see the problem for transwomen to compete with other women, if they haven't been through male puberty.

Or rather, if they haven't acquired any clear male advantages (I'm not sure what it'd take for that).

In general, I think the World Rugby Guidelines are sensible and persuasively argued by Ross Tucker.

 

[BlueRoads]

I think the hormone levels are at least a better decider of who should compete in which category than the looks of one's genitals. But of course this is a very emotional topic and hardly anybody who defines as male or female would like to have to compete in the other section. In my eyes it would be best to define some categories like testosterone level and then just name the categories Category A, B, C, D. No "men" or women" anymore. But that is a "revolution" that seems hard / impossible to get through.

Although I feel for transgender women or intersex people who do not fit into the current system, I still think it's unfair to let transgender women compete in the women's category without looking at certain hormone levels and physics, because women born as women just don't stand a chance against transwomen unless the latter have to adapt certain levels. So basically women born as women would not have a chance to win any sportive competitions anymore.

It would be good if the emotional and identity level could be left out as much as possible in this discussion and solutions could be found which make competitive sport for many people possible. In the end it's always just categories, they will never tell you who you are.

 

[jmdirt]

Oh but you were. Do you agree that chromosomal variations are not what sexes are and that they aren’t a continuum.

I’d also like to point out that variations in development are nothing whatever to do with transgender issues.

Oh, but I wasn't because I didn't establish that science, it's not my field.

PS: Its strange that an 'expert' has so many "look over there" add-ons...

EDIT: The answer to that question is in the crude representation chart above (originally developed by someone who does this research for a living).

 

[The GCW]

Netserk, quoted:

“Some transgender adolescents receive blocking/stopping hormones early enough, so that they don't go through their normally expected puberty. I don't see the problem for transwomen to compete with other women, if they haven't been through male puberty.”

How would that work? What would the cutoff date be, then, in order to make it fair for transgender women to race against women. A 10 year old boy would qualify but an 11 year old boy would not?

Would that need to be legally documented or what transgender women identify with?

It seems a male, becoming a transgender female, reducing testosterone through pharmacology and on top of that stopping puberty from taking place, still does not a woman make.

Women are so much more than that.

& I’m wondering, are there women who’ve become transgender men and wish to race bicycles? & I’m wondering is it unfair that a transgender man may not be able to fairly compete against someone always man? Can transgender man make an argument, a legal argument, for men to lower their testosterone in order to make transgender men racers more able to compete fairly?

The original poster.

 

[jmdirt]

Netserk, quoted:

“Some transgender adolescents receive blocking/stopping hormones early enough, so that they don't go through their normally expected puberty. I don't see the problem for transwomen to compete with other women, if they haven't been through male puberty.”

How would that work? What would the cutoff date be, then, in order to make it fair for transgender women to race against women. A 10 year old boy would qualify but an 11 year old boy would not?

Would that need to be legally documented or what transgender women identify with?

It seems a male, becoming a transgender female, reducing testosterone through pharmacology and on top of that stopping puberty from taking place, still does not a woman make.

Women are so much more than that.

& I’m wondering, are there women who’ve become transgender men and wish to race bicycles? & I’m wondering is it unfair that a transgender man may not be able to fairly compete against someone always man? Can transgender man make an argument, a legal argument, for men to lower their testosterone in order to make transgender men racers more able to compete fairly?

The original poster.

Wait, all of your know it all above, and you don't even understand puberty? LMAO!

Strike 10 you're out!

 

[Gigs_98]

I have absolutely no clue about how "supressing puberty" by taking hormones works exactly but if it indeed takes away the biological advantage of men I see the point.

That said, pushing kids at that age into making the decision of whether they ever want to be allowed to compete in women's sports, seems problematic on a completely different level.

 

[Red Rick]

Some transgender adolescents receive blocking/stopping hormones early enough, so that they don't go through their normally expected puberty. I don't see the problem for transwomen to compete with other women, if they haven't been through male puberty.

Or rather, if they haven't acquired any clear male advantages (I'm not sure what it'd take for that).

In general, I think the World Rugby Guidelines are sensible and persuasively argued by Ross Tucker.

Does data support that boys that age category don't have a physical advantage over girls?

 

[Red Rick]

I have absolutely no clue about how "supressing puberty" by taking hormones works exactly but if it indeed takes away the biological advantage of men I see the point.

That said, pushing kids at that age into making the decision of whether they ever want to be allowed to compete in women's sports, seems problematic on a completely different level.

Yeah not sure about the ethics of providing an arbitrary external motivator to rush such life changing decisions. Wouldn't know the data on what% of MtFs even transition at that age. Best guess it's a tiny%?

 

[The GCW]

Save Women’s Sports.

UCI, British Cycling block transgender athlete from track championships https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uc...transgender-athlete-from-track-championships/

Emily Bridges: UCI can stop transgender cyclist from competing even if she meets eligibility criteria https://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/60969663

There has been great progress in promoting women’s cycling through years of hard work. Women who have always been women benefit from that progress. Women who have always been women do not benefit from racing against women who were men. - and in this case, a year ago.

At what point do women who have always been women find protection to keep from having to race against women who were born as men?

Are women who’ve always been women, not to be protected against racing against women who were men?

After centuries of women being treated unfairly,

People of the world have been moving forward making life fair for women; the UCI should protect women who have always been women from racing against women who were men. To do otherwise is a movement in the opposite direction.

Women’s cycling is dependent on being fair to women who have always been women.

& This isn’t just cycling. It’s all women’s sports.

 

[The GCW]

To add:

From pool to track: disputes over trans athletes mustn’t make everyone a loser
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...rans-athletes-must-not-make-everyone-a-looser

 

[Izzyeviel]

the 'save womens sport' peeps make it sound like theres hordes of men deliberately changing their gender just to spite female athletes.

And theres a reason anti-trans politicians love the 'save womens sport' peeps.

 

[Red Rick]

the 'save womens sport' peeps make it sound like theres hordes of men deliberately changing their gender just to spite female athletes.

And theres a reason anti-trans politicians love the 'save womens sport' peeps.

It does go against fairness for a majority of athletes competing, even at lower levels. And you only need a tiny amount of trans athletes to dominate to really sour the mood on this.

 

[Izzyeviel]

It does go against fairness for a majority of athletes competing, even at lower levels. And you only need a tiny amount of trans athletes to dominate to really sour the mood on this.

Its all part of the culture war nonsense we see going on. Its targeting a whole group of people based solely on the hypothetical notion that mtf people are flooding women's sports and thus are destroying women's sport. And it all feeds the same narrative: women's sport will never be worthwhile because they aren't as good as men.

We all want a level playing for athletes, but theres' better ways to do it than by supporting the right wing culture nonsense.

 

[Red Rick]

Its all part of the culture war nonsense we see going on. Its targeting a whole group of people based solely on the hypothetical notion that mtf people are flooding women's sports and thus are destroying women's sport. And it all feeds the same narrative: women's sport will never be worthwhile because they aren't as good as men.

We all want a level playing for athletes, but theres' better ways to do it than by supporting the right wing culture nonsense.

Well that is a heap of leaps right there. But if you think completely falsifying my position helps the cause in the long term good luck with that.

 

[Izzyeviel]

Do you support the group 'save womens sport'?

 

[Unchained]

I really really struggle with all of this..as a young racer I was in some of the federation hotbeds and saw that just officiating races, TTs, road,crit and velodrome races was extremely difficult. And now there is a seemingly sudden wild card as to what sex a racer is..your racing license has sex indicated as male or female..and I don't think that cycling federations are paying close attention on the initial offering. So if you write back saying I want to be a female racers when I was previously licensed as a male, or the other way around..I hope that they have processes that sort that out in an office,not at the registration table and God forbid at the podium..
I think that the medical qualifications for what level of what..I guess primarily testosterone or estrogen should be determined someplace other than the race course..
I personally have not encountered this as a racer or race official..I really don't want to..I have as a licensed male racer been beaten by a female racer participating in the male event..anything w more than 30,40ft of climbing O consider to be hilly .I have races and trained a many female riders who were capable of extraordinary things on a bicycle..I am unsure how I would feel about a racer that recently changed from male to female racing status..from what I have read,age is enormous and parents of young female racers appear to have strong opinions about who is a junior female,and adult female racers look to be aggravated about an unclear path as to who qualifies to race as a female.
As a racer, I think I can handle whatever..but as an official this looks scary..if you have ever been part of a protest,unsafe line,cut the course,took 10 mechanical laps, held on to a car,didn't have junior gears, the list is endless..people get angry and really ugly..I have never had a protest over sexual identity at the start finish..