Re: Re:
Sorry, want was the wrong word. Transmen competing against women is much more of an issue. to transition they are given testosterone which will almost certainly give them an advantage. The "birth certificate rule" as it gets called in places where it's enacted leads to things like this:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/25/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-wins-texas-girls-title
It would also lead to people like Chris Mosier, a trans man who made the US duathlon squad, competing against women. This would be unfair.
Similarly, transwomen suppress their testosterone, so forcing them to compete against men would be unfair.
You've even pointed out yourself why a binary division based on sex isn't possible. By population intersex people (as a general term, there are lots of genetic variations) are thought to occur about 3 times more often than trans people (1.6% intersex Vs. 0.6% trans). Many of these variations are not obvious at birth or even until later life. This division would require that everyone is genotyped. Intersex people have a much bigger impact on women's sport than trans people do if we're going to divide sport based on a binary definition.
In this discussion the "fair" part of the right to competition seems to have been lost. It is part of it.
This part I don't understand. You don't see transwomen dominating women's sport as a problem? That's pretty much where this discussion originated. I actually don't see it as a problem either.
frenchfry said:King Boonen said:frenchfry said:I don't see how requiring competition based on biological gender is denying anyone their "rights". That is not the criteria transgender athletes would normally prefer, but it doesn't keep them from competing. It is also anything but impossible to do. A real difficulty is how to classify intersex athletes (like Caster Semenya) who are so from birth, but that is a significantly different situation.King Boonen said:No one is conflating them. You wanted to divide people in competition on biological sex. I merely pointed out that this is either impossible, or you ban lots of people from competing. I don't like the idea of denying people their rights.
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So you want transmen to compete against cis-women? I would think that is much more likely to damage women’s sport.
I don't "want" anything. I am trying to understand the different points of view. It is a complicated subject, I had to google the term "cis-women" - life is a lot more complicated these days. If athletes are required to compete based on their "bioligical" gender, then I suppose that logically transmen would compete against cis-women.
Sorry, want was the wrong word. Transmen competing against women is much more of an issue. to transition they are given testosterone which will almost certainly give them an advantage. The "birth certificate rule" as it gets called in places where it's enacted leads to things like this:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/25/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-wins-texas-girls-title
It would also lead to people like Chris Mosier, a trans man who made the US duathlon squad, competing against women. This would be unfair.
Similarly, transwomen suppress their testosterone, so forcing them to compete against men would be unfair.
You say that "dividing" people based on their biological sex is either impossible or will lead to banning them from competing. I am not a doctor, but I don't think it is impossible to classify people by their biological sex (except for certain rare cases like intersex individuals) and in any case the trans individuals would not be banned from competition, they would have to compete based on their biological sex. This may not be acceptable to them, or yourself, but it wouldn't be impossible.I can understand the arguments from both sides, but I certainly don't agree with your statements of opinion as if they are facts. This is a complicated debate with, in my opinion, no obvious outcome.
You’ll have to point out where I’ve done this, it’s certainly not my intention and I don’t think I have, but I’ll happily clarify/retract where appropriate.
You've even pointed out yourself why a binary division based on sex isn't possible. By population intersex people (as a general term, there are lots of genetic variations) are thought to occur about 3 times more often than trans people (1.6% intersex Vs. 0.6% trans). Many of these variations are not obvious at birth or even until later life. This division would require that everyone is genotyped. Intersex people have a much bigger impact on women's sport than trans people do if we're going to divide sport based on a binary definition.
In this discussion the "fair" part of the right to competition seems to have been lost. It is part of it.
Because that’s what the problem is isn’t it? Or are you saying that they shouldn’t be allowed to compete against women at any level?I also don't see the relevance of constantly using examples of transgender athletes that don't succeed in dominating their sport.
I personally don't see that as the problem at all, but maybe I am missing something.
:Edited for quotes by KB. Hope you don't mind, it's just easier to follow.
This part I don't understand. You don't see transwomen dominating women's sport as a problem? That's pretty much where this discussion originated. I actually don't see it as a problem either.