Reactions from the peloton

[thehog]

Nicolas Roche column in The Irish Independent today about it. Good read.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/oth...ne-else-its-your-choice-admit-it-3257272.html

It is. Very good.

While I wasn't really around the pro peloton during those early Armstrong years and maybe don't know what it was like, my team-mate at Ag2r-La Mondiale, Seb Hinault, was and he still races today, clean. Seb summed it up in a tweet yesterday saying: "These guys make me laugh, saying doping is global. It was only global in their team".

It p****s me off that eight or 10 years later, after winning the prize money, buying the big houses and the flashy cars, they decide to come clean when they're cornered into it and then still blame somebody else. If you dope, don't blame anyone else. It's your choice. Admit it

 

[BroDeal]

I will wait for Roche to convince his father to come clean.

 

[richwagmn]

Nicolas Roche column in The Irish Independent today about it. Good read.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/oth...ne-else-its-your-choice-admit-it-3257272.html

Really? Let's see. He's riding for an admitted doper, Riis who facilitated doping for Tyler Hamilton while running CSC.

He apparently isn't as troubled by dopers as he claims is he?

 

[thehog]

I will waith for Roche to convince his father to come clean.

...and just wait to hits the Saxo training camp!

 

[peterst6906]

Nicolas Roche column in The Irish Independent today about it. Good read.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/oth...ne-else-its-your-choice-admit-it-3257272.html

Yeah a really good read. Calls it like it should be called.

 

[pastronef]

let's have a drink over it!

@andrewmcquaid @nicholasroche looks Good but next time you are in belgium we gonna visit Leffe... My favorite Whiskey is Lagavuline !!! :-

https://twitter.com/RikBMC/status/256147788516179969

 

[Escarabajo]

Brain Smith goes even further in this article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...clist-hed-drugs-sacked.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Good read.

Everything was good until he said this:

But there are positives to come from all of this and we have a much cleaner sport today. I have no doubt that, in Bradley Wiggins, we have a clean Tour de France champion.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...d-cyclist-hed-drugs-sacked.html#ixzz296al0HAb
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

In fact, he can not be certain of it.

 

[hiero2]

It is. Very good.

Great quote from Roche! Excellent!

Canc has spoken out now, too.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-cancellara-critical-of-bruyneel-and-armstrong

He doesn't sound lame like some of these other guys. Sounds honest to me, but I'm sure there will be many who slam him.

 

[cineteq]

Nicolas Roche column in The Irish Independent today about it. Good read.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/oth...ne-else-its-your-choice-admit-it-3257272.html

Great read after a terrible interview on TV the day before. He's not very good at ad libbing.

 

[Dead Star]

Everything was good until he said this:


In fact, he can not be certain of it.

Brian Smith was always very supportive and Liggett/Sherwin-like when talking about Lance during his early cycling.tv commentary days. I guess with everything happening now, he feels liberated to highlight this moment in his career and nice of him to do so. Shame with the last comment as well, but he can't afford to p*** off Sky.

 

[ToreBear]

Nicolas Roche column in The Irish Independent today about it. Good read.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/oth...ne-else-its-your-choice-admit-it-3257272.html

I liked this quote:

What I hate about guys who are caught like this is that, first, it takes them 10 years to admit they doped and, second, they say they only did it because everybody did it and they did it to keep up. That's bulls**t. It's not true and it's not fair to the riders that didn't dope and never will dope.

The dopers probably convinced themselves everyone else did it to rationalize their doping. And now when they are coming "clean" they still havent figured out that they werent looking for the clean guys when racing, they were looking for who was on the best dope.

Convienently not remembering the clean and more talented guy struggeling beside them only to end up lower down on the results.

 

[Sarcastic Wet Trout]

The dopers probably convinced themselves everyone else did it to rationalize their doping.

You have to remember that we are dealing with a biased sample. Only the riders who could rationalize doping stayed with Lance, while those who couldn't walked away.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

It's a much better statement from Roche than those he made on TV and in many ways it's one of the strongest statements from a currently active pro in the higher echelons of the sport.

However, I think that he gets some things wrong. The truth lies somewhere in between the penitent's implication that "everyone was doing it" and Hinault's contention, approved of by Roche, that "it was just your team". There were clean riders and those riders were robbed. However, at the sharp end of the peloton, amongst the big names and their key workers, doping was indeed close to universal and, for those who wanted a career, sometimes it came dangerously close to mandatory.

I don't see how anyone can read, for instance, Hamilton's book or the affidavits of people like Zabriskie and simply cast the whole thing as the bad moral choices of bad people. It was a systematic and institutional problem, not in the sense that there was no free will involved but the context is crucial. Putting the boot into those who cooperated with USADA and demanding longer bans is a bad idea. Cooperation is necessary, and therefore limiting sanctions for cooperators is necessary.

Still it's good to see a top pro willing to put his opinions, in detail, in print on this. And the overall thrust of his comments is hard to disagree with.

By the way, there could be some disagreements over Christmas dinner in his clan. Dan Martin just gave an interview where he gives his backing to Zabriskie, Vande Velde and Danielson and says he looks forward to racing with them again as soon as possible.

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-...regardless-of-the-history-of-some-team-mates/

 

[Maxiton]

It's a much better statement from Roche than those he made on TV and in many ways it's one of the strongest statements from a currently active pro in the higher echelons of the sport.

However, I think that he gets some things wrong. The truth lies somewhere in between the penitent's implication that "everyone was doing it" and Hinault's contention, approved of by Roche, that "it was just your team". There were clean riders and those riders were robbed. However, at the sharp end of the peloton, amongst the big names and their key workers, doping was indeed close to universal and, for those who wanted a career, sometimes it came dangerously close to mandatory.

I don't see how anyone can read, for instance, Hamilton's book or the affidavits of people like Zabriskie and simply cast the whole thing as the bad moral choices of bad people. It was a systematic and institutional problem, not in the sense that there was no free will involved but the context is crucial. Putting the boot into those who cooperated with USADA and demanding longer bans is a bad idea. Cooperation is necessary, and therefore limiting sanctions for cooperators is necessary.

Still it's good to see a top pro willing to put his opinions, in detail, in print on this. And the overall thrust of his comments is hard to disagree with.

By the way, there could be some disagreements over Christmas dinner in his clan. Dan Martin just gave an interview where he gives his backing to Zabriskie, Vande Velde and Danielson and says he looks forward to racing with them again as soon as possible.

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-...regardless-of-the-history-of-some-team-mates/

I agree with all of this, especially the blue.

 

[ToreBear]

You have to remember that we are dealing with a biased sample. Only the riders who could rationalize doping stayed with Lance, while those who couldn't walked away.

Thats part of my point. They were biased observers when doping. Those who continued to dope even after leaving Lance, continued to be biased.

Landis and Hamilton, I think would be good examples of this. I think Vaughters has a deeper understanding.

Hamilton when he talks, gives the impression everyone was doping. I think coyle corrected this in the book, but I don't think Hamilton has yet to realy understand that not everyone was doping. Perhaps he might intelectually, but emotionally I think he still thinks everyone else was doing it.

On Landis, I'm not so sure, but I doubt he has really emotionally understood what he did.

I think this is perhaps part of the reason Vaughters left the sport early. He realized emotionally what he had been doing. My guess is that riding on a clean team for Legeay had this effect on him.

 

[ToreBear]

I agree with all of this, especially the blue.

That goes for me too. Especially the blue stuff.

 

[Von Mises]

It's a much better statement from Roche than those he made on TV and in many ways it's one of the strongest statements from a currently active pro in the higher echelons of the sport.

However, I think that he gets some things wrong.

True, but Roche was 15 when Armstrong won his first Tour and Roche turned pro at the same year when Armstrong retired. Roche joined Cofidis year after big cleanup in Cofidis. My point is, Roche does not have context, he has not seen and participated, he has not experienced these kind of situations, that why his opinions are bit naive maybe.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

True, but Roche was 15 when Armstrong won his first Tour and Roche turned pro at the same year when Armstrong retired. Roche joined Cofidis year after big cleanup in Cofidis. My point is, Roche does not have context, he has not seen and participated, he has not experienced these kind of situations, that why his opinions are bit naive maybe.

But he isn't some naive waif either. He is the son of a doper, he grew up in and around dirty cycling. He isn't fresh off the boat.

 

[Benotti69]

But he isn't some naive waif either. He is the son of a doper, he grew up in and around dirty cycling. He isn't fresh off the boat.

His agent is Darach McQuaid, bro of Fat Pat and has said nothing about Contador, Valverde or any current returned dopers has he? Contador rode for Bruyneel or did Roche forget?

 

[Arnout]

But he isn't some naive waif either. He is the son of a doper, he grew up in and around dirty cycling. He isn't fresh off the boat.

I doubt fathers want their kids to know what they're up to.

Sure, he might guess, but he might not want to guess.

 

[thehog]

His agent is Darach McQuaid, bro of Fat Pat and has siad nothing about Contador, Valverde or any current returned dopers has he? Contador rode for Bruyneel or did Roche forget?

He'll turn up to the Saxo training camp and announce himself "Hi guys, I'm the token clean guy. I'm here to make you look good. I'm just going for a coffee so see you in exactly 45 minutes. Remember I saw nothing"....

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

His agent is Darach McQuaid, bro of Fat Pat and has siad nothing about Contador, Valverde or any current returned dopers has he?

Actually he did address the Contador issue briefly and, interestingly, did so in terms at the very least implying that he thinks Contador was legitimately popped:

"Obviously Contador has had his troubles and he paid the price for what he did over the last two years." (From Roche's TV appearance last night).

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

He'll turn up to the Saxo training camp and announce himself "Hi guys, I'm the token clean guy. I'm here to make you look good. I'm just going for a coffee so see you in exactly 45 minutes. Remember I saw nothing"....

LOL... Anyway, i always liked him as a rider. Even after you told me his manager is one of the McQuaids. His father i liked too. And i guess his heroic 87-TdF ride wasn´t aided by transfusions/Epo.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I doubt fathers want their kids to know what they're up to.

Sure, he might guess, but he might not want to guess.

As a child there comes a point when you realise that Father Xmas is in fact your parents. I find it hard to believe that he would be that naive.

One of the things that strikes me about the USADA report is how open in the peloton doping was and how aware partners were. I find it hard to believe that he would not have been around or aware of what was going on.

 

[GJB123]

I liked this quote:


The dopers probably convinced themselves everyone else did it to rationalize their doping. And now when they are coming "clean" they still havent figured out that they werent looking for the clean guys when racing, they were looking for who was on the best dope.

Convienently not remembering the clean and more talented guy struggeling beside them only to end up lower down on the results.

That is true. Thanks for wording it so well.