Reactions from the Pro Peloton to #USPSConspiracy (USADA) - post here

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Jul 6, 2010
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Interestingly Johan Olav Koss thought it was immoral to take epo for the project, while Kaggestad thought it was a good thing since cycling had a doping problem.

I have been a little skeptical of Koss, but It makes more sense to me that he was clean than on EPO when I think about it in light of this article.


Koss clean? Really?

He went from top-ten to crushing all in time for Lillehammer.

Maybe the study was more fruitful than expected. Well timed to say the least...
 
Huge unexpected performances in speed and long-distance work from a muscular athlete who later turned totally to charity. Ring a bell? Oh, and he was a med student at the time. Come on!
I really, really like Koss, but whatever he says will just be spin to me. It just doesn't make sense. So what WOULD he have skated on non-clap skates while on a proper blood/epo program a la Ferrari? We know the difference in performance is HUGE. Surely a second a lap. Get real.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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In Lillehammer he was on fixed skates.

The clap-skates should never have been allowed re ISU rules. But, the Dutch had them first and the ISU is run by the Dutch. They had a boat-load of WRs and medals for a bit, and then the rest of the world got them.

NEVER should have been allowed.
 
May 19, 2010
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ToreBear said:
Are Gustav Larsson and Armstrong "friends"? Are Kristoff and Armstrong "friends"? Is them speaking their mind more likely or less likely to illicit a response from an enraged Armstrong compared to his "friend" Hushovd?

He starts of the lines you mentioned with: Lance has never tested positive thats why this is difficult.

Meaning if there had been a positive test this would have been much easier. Well it would wouldn't it? Perhaps it becomes easier for Hushovd when more evidence comes out?

If you interpret his very diplomatic answers with the worst possible intention, then you could possibly say he is defending armstrong and attacking the witnesses. But few people unless they want to make others look bad read statements like that way.
I haven't said Kristoff have said anything about Armstrong. I don't know that he has. Kristoff has said things about his BMC soigneur and his Katusha team mate Galimzjanov. He has said that he knows them and that he is disapointed. He has been consistent. He isn't flying of his rocker when some Spanish, Kazakstan or Italian cyclist on some other team has been caught, and then saying the process of the anti-doping authority is fishy when someone close to him gets caught. Larsson, who is a fellow Scandinavian cyclist living in Monaco, says no one in the cycling world belives Armstrong was clean. What are the chances that Hushovd has heard less about it than Larsson, and what are the chances that Hushovd hasn't spoken with Larsson about it? Slim.

Hushovds "diplomatic respons" is alleging that the USADA proof is based on hearsay and dodgy witnesses and that Armstrongs case is less serious than one positive doping test.
 
neineinei said:
I haven't said Kristoff have said anything about Armstrong. I don't know that he has. Kristoff has said things about his BMC soigneur and his Katusha team mate Galimzjanov. He has said that he knows them and that he is disapointed. He has been consistent. He isn't flying of his rocker when some Spanish, Kazakstan or Italian cyclist on some other team has been caught, and then saying the process of the anti-doping authority is fishy when someone close to him gets caught. Larsson, who is a fellow Scandinavian cyclist living in Monaco, says no one in the cycling world belives Armstrong was clean. What are the chances that Hushovd has heard less about it than Larsson, and what are the chances that Hushovd hasn't spoken with Larsson about it? Slim.

Hushovds "diplomatic respons" is alleging that the USADA proof is based on hearsay and dodgy witnesses and that Armstrongs case is less serious than one positive doping test.
I think I made it clear. I think Hushovd is less willing to talk because he has a relationship with Armstrong. Armstrong is not someone who is forgiving or takes critizism easy. Potential cost for Hushovd to say the same as Larsson is much higher.



We read the VG article differently. There is nothing in that article relating to hearsay or dodgy witnesses. You are inserting those words to make your point. You are doing the same with the less serious statement. He said difficult.
 
Jun 18, 2012
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Phil Liggett

Phil interviewed on SA radio again. I'd say he almost scores max on fanboy bingo. Be warned, you may want to stab your speakers after a while listening to this garbage.

Some highlights ;
"Why are they doing this when federal case dropped due to lack of evidence"
"politically motivated not doing it to clean up the sport"
"why are USADA pursuing offences in foreign country" (he then back tracks and adds alleged !
"Doubts USADA authority to suspend him for life"
"No evidence" apparently, all the witnesses are liars
"over 500 drug tests"
"Eddy Merckx nobbled by mafia, never a hint of a positive"
"can't turn a donkey into a racehorse with a shot of EPO"
"can't prepare for OOC testing"
"LA, WADA or UCI can take the case to CAS"
Then cancer shield deployed
LANCE CURES CANCER WITH THE INTENSITY OF HIS WORDS !!!!
"USADA is a nefarious local drugs agency"

He then relates a tale of someone in Boulder who told him that an unnamed US agency offered money for them to say Armstrong used EPO.

http://www.ballz.co.za/sport/ballz-speak-to-phil-liggett-about-lance-armstrong-being-stripped-of-ti/649

What a colossal tool.
 
Jun 3, 2010
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Northern rider said:
Phil interviewed on SA radio again. I'd say he almost scores max on fanboy bingo. Be warned, you may want to stab your speakers after a while listening to this garbage.

Some highlights ;
"Why are they doing this when federal case dropped due to lack of evidence"
"politically motivated not doing it to clean up the sport"
"why are USADA pursuing offences in foreign country" (he then back tracks and adds alleged !
"Doubts USADA authority to suspend him for life"
"No evidence" apparently, all the witnesses are liars
"over 500 drug tests"
"Eddy Merckx nobbled by mafia, never a hint of a positive"
"can't turn a donkey into a racehorse with a shot of EPO"
"can't prepare for OOC testing"
"LA, WADA or UCI can take the case to CAS"
Then cancer shield deployed
LANCE CURES CANCER WITH THE INTENSITY OF HIS WORDS !!!!
"USADA is a nefarious local drugs agency"

He then relates a tale of someone in Boulder who told him that an unnamed US agency offered money for them to say Armstrong used EPO.

http://www.ballz.co.za/sport/ballz-speak-to-phil-liggett-about-lance-armstrong-being-stripped-of-ti/649

What a colossal tool.
Holy ****. This is insane. How do they so easily say something they know is complete bull****. Should be impossible to say with a straight face.
 
Ingenerius said:
Holy ****. This is insane. How do they so easily say something they know is complete bull****. Should be impossible to say with a straight face.
What's sad is regardless of one thinks of the Armstrong case USADA conduct anti-doping for a majority of the sports in the US. What Phil is doing is undermining all future testing and anti-doping cases. It's shameless.*

I actually didn't even bother to listen to the link as there's good reason why he's making the statements in South Africa and not elsewhere.
 
There is no way I could listen to that tripe...
He is getting worse.

I can't believe that he would trash talk USADA and in actuality Travis like that!
...and I wonder who this person in Boulder might have been....?
 
Trond Vidar said:
in 2001 Norwegian Skiiers still had access to Altitude tents. A couple of years later they were banned. I am pretty sure the values were high because of that.

Hell, my hemoglobin level has been in the 17's. Probably dehydrated.
Classic BS!

Per Elofsson had an altitude apartment and he was at 15,0-15,4 I think, while smashing the opposition in Lathis 2001. Hard training actually lowers your HB value.
 
thehog said:
What's sad is regardless of one thinks of the Armstrong case USADA conduct anti-doping for a majority of the sports in the US. What Phil is doing is undermining all future testing and anti-doping cases. It's shameless.*

I actually didn't even bother to listen to the link as there's good reason why he's making the statements in South Africa and not elsewhere.
I listened as well Hog. The final bit was one of the most barefaced I've ever heard. Last Saturday a guy walked up to him in Boulder. Liggett didn't name names. The guy said the Feds approached him two years ago and said if you testify that you saw Lance using EPO, you will never need work again.

Phil has always lied but that claim is the worst I've seen from him by a mile. i can't understand how he can get away with that. It's the Feds he's talking about!!
 
Jun 18, 2012
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mewmewmew13 said:
There is no way I could listen to that tripe...
He is getting worse.

I can't believe that he would trash talk USADA and in actuality Travis like that!
...and I wonder who this person in Boulder might have been....?
It was someone he met on Saturday, at the USAPro presumably. The alleged visit by the mysterious agents was two years ago.
 
Jul 13, 2009
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Northern rider said:
Phil interviewed on SA radio again. I'd say he almost scores max on fanboy bingo. Be warned, you may want to stab your speakers after a while listening to this garbage.

Some highlights ;
"Why are they doing this when federal case dropped due to lack of evidence"
"politically motivated not doing it to clean up the sport"
"why are USADA pursuing offences in foreign country" (he then back tracks and adds alleged !
"Doubts USADA authority to suspend him for life"
"No evidence" apparently, all the witnesses are liars
"over 500 drug tests"
"Eddy Merckx nobbled by mafia, never a hint of a positive"
"can't turn a donkey into a racehorse with a shot of EPO"
"can't prepare for OOC testing"
"LA, WADA or UCI can take the case to CAS"
Then cancer shield deployed
LANCE CURES CANCER WITH THE INTENSITY OF HIS WORDS !!!!
"USADA is a nefarious local drugs agency"

He then relates a tale of someone in Boulder who told him that an unnamed US agency offered money for them to say Armstrong used EPO.

http://www.ballz.co.za/sport/ballz-speak-to-phil-liggett-about-lance-armstrong-being-stripped-of-ti/649

What a colossal tool.
Am I missing something about Liggett saying the Federal case being dropped. I thought that was looking into whether Government funds had been used to buy/administer doping methods and products. It could have been possible for the federal case to have uncovered evidence of doping but no evidence of government money being involved. Liggett and others using the argument that the Federal case was dropped surely has no relevance to the USADA investigation.
 
Jul 10, 2010
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While this is not a specific reaction to the USADA judgement on LA, I just happened to go to the thread today, and I think the interview is useful in light of the USADA/LA judgement.

I originally referred to it in the forum here:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=17361

The link there is to here:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/06/news/qa-vande-velde-we-won-the-giro-with-chip-on-our-shoulders-inside-hesjedals-historic-giro-win_222184

VdV starts his clock of change in 2008 - saying
When we started in 2008, at that point in time, we didn’t even think it was possible to win a grand tour. This is really a litmus test for clean sport and how far the sport has come. It’s a great thing for our team and for our sport in general. We never would have thought this would have been possible. That’s how far our sport has come.
Given that many people here are questioning riders who have said anti-doping things in the past, but not come out against LA, this may not be the right link in this thread. But, to me, it is useful when trying to think about all that has been said, and all that has happened.
 
hiero2 said:
...
The link there is to here:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/06/news/qa-vande-velde-we-won-the-giro-with-chip-on-our-shoulders-inside-hesjedals-historic-giro-win_222184

it is useful when trying to think about all that has been said, and all that has happened.
How many times do we have to sit through another "cleanest peloton ever" speech only to find out the era was rife with doping? I've been reading them since 1985.

Riders aren't killing themselves any more, but everything about the culture is still pretty much there. The riders defending Armstrong's past is a strong clue little has changed.
 
The Valley said:
This is a good article from Bill Plaschke in the LA Times this morning:

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-plaschke-lance-armstrong-20120831-9,0,1276265.column

He pretty much rips Armstrong up. It'll be articles like this that begin to turn the tide against the fanboys.
I particularly like this comment:
"Do people really believe that contributions to society should allow one to circumvent the rules — such as fair play?"

An article comment: "Marion Jones' biggest mistake was that she didn't create a charity"
 

the big ring

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Jul 28, 2009
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Not directly vs the conspiracy, but Bridie ODonnel made a very supportive comment to Mike Anderson's recent article.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/road-biking/My-Life-With-Lance-Armstrong.html?page=11

Not directly linkable, so I am C&P'ing it here:

Bridie_OD 7 pts

Thanks, Mike, for sharing this detailed story. I first knew of your role as mechanic for Armstrong after reading Daniel Coyle's excellent book "Lance Armstrong's War' about the 2004 TdF.

It was interesting that Armstrong had been given the right to edit/look over any chapters in that book to ensure they were' correct' (as stated by Coyle) and that he still came across as a megalomaniacal, aggressive bully.

So, I'm not surprised by your version of events (sadly), but I can understand how working with and around an extraordinary character would have been both intoxicating, difficult and ultimately heartbreaking.

New Zealand is a great country, and a wonderful place to mtb. I hope you and your family feel settled there and you are relieved to finally be able to give your side of the story.
 
Though he's not a part of the peloton proper, I'd like to congratulate Daniel Benson on his honest, thoughtful, and unflinching exploration of omerta in that recent editorial piece. Seems like this is a suitable thread for that.

Good work, Benson! :) If, as you suggest, more broadcasters and journalists would start asking--and answering--these questions, then we may actually witness a change in the cycling world.
 
Mar 26, 2009
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ToreBear said:
It's still a fact though. It would have been a lot easier convincing people if there had been a positive test. Non analytical positives and witnesses are a new way of thinking about anti doping. People are still used to athletes testing positive.
In a criminal case 10 eyewitnesses would be more than enough for any jury to send someone to the electric chair, yet Armstrong defenders continue to simultaneously cry out "innocent until proven guilty" while shrugging off those 10 witnesses as not being real evidence. They will accept nothing less than the "smoking gun", which in this case is an official positive test. Keeping with my Hollywood murder-mystery analogy, the difficulty is that all of Armstrong's smoking guns were either "thrown in the river" by the UCI or explained away with a backdated "license to kill" that allowed him to use drugs in 1999.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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cineteq said:
I particularly like this comment:
"Do people really believe that contributions to society should allow one to circumvent the rules — such as fair play?"

An article comment: "Marion Jones' biggest mistake was that she didn't create a charity"
I like this bit:

"My name is Lance Armstrong. I am a cancer survivor. I'm a father of five. And, yes, I won the Tour de France seven times."

The first part of his introduction is an honorable legacy. The last part is a lie. The real sadness here is that Armstrong no longer seems to understand the difference. And, frankly, you have to wonder if America does, either.


And this bit:

Armstrong gave up this fight because he was guilty. He was facing evidence of drug cheating offered by 10 former teammates plus test results that USADA said were "consistent" with blood doping. While Armstrong never actually flunked a drug test, this "enough is enough" reasoning flunked the smell test.

He quit fighting the charges because they were true. He is Barry Bonds. He is Roger Clemens. He is Sammy Sosa.


And this:

As long as Armstrong keeps his cycling charade alive, the cancer message will be slowly drowned out, The sooner Armstrong admits he is a cheater, the sooner he can resume the business of being an inspiration.

The fact that this article appeared in a major national newspaper gives me a modicum of hope that the tide is turning.

Linky: http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-plaschke-lance-armstrong-20120831-9,0,1276265.column
 

the big ring

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Jul 28, 2009
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the big ring said:
Not directly vs the conspiracy, but Bridie ODonnel made a very supportive comment to Mike Anderson's recent article.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/road-biking/My-Life-With-Lance-Armstrong.html?page=11

Not directly linkable, so I am C&P'ing it here:
PS. Bridie O'Donnell is a pro female cyclist - I think she deserves a +:

https://twitter.com/Bridie_OD

https://twitter.com/Bridie_OD/status/241312472882085888
https://twitter.com/Bridie_OD/status/241225150312353792
https://twitter.com/Bridie_OD/status/240100895214415872

Can't find anything directly relating to her opinion on Lance, but the above are positive remarks about Ashenden's rebuttal to Phil or smacking Phil down for being a dink.

ETA: or maybe not: https://twitter.com/Bridie_OD/status/213040487777574912
 
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