Reactions from the Pro Peloton to #USPSConspiracy (USADA) - post here

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Jul 10, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
How many times do we have to sit through another "cleanest peloton ever" speech only to find out the era was rife with doping? I've been reading them since 1985.

Riders aren't killing themselves any more, but everything about the culture is still pretty much there. The riders defending Armstrong's past is a strong clue little has changed.
The culture is still there. Hmmmm. Yeah. You know, I think you're right. But, one of the biggest lessons I ever learned was to listen to things and try to figure out how EVERYBODY could be correct - because almost always the "3 blind men describing the elephant" is the description of human interaction.

Ok - riders aren't dieing now, at least not directly. But Vaughters and VdV, and others, are saying that you can compete clean now, and win. Ok, how can that be true and the culture still be there? Oooh! I have an answer! If the doping is strictly limited to such as gets only marginal gains, and incurs a large risk.

Have we heard this before? Sh!t yeah. I know. And that is a problem. But, I think I have to try and believe SOMEBODY in current time, don't you? If I went around not believing ANYTHING I hear, wouldn't that make it extremely difficult to get through the day? I have chosen to believe Vaughters and VdV, so far as I can and so long as they keep up with the current path. I chose to believe that Evans has been riding clean, at least for the past few years. There are some suspicious little factoids around JV, but at the moment I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

But, all this said, this way I can see how Papp's racing buddy is right when he told us the peloton was still filled with needles. Do you remember that thread? Some rider that Joe used to ride with said the peloton was still full of needles. I forget where it was said. and JV, Ryder, and VdV can be right when they tells us a clean win is possible.

This way all those riders responses to the LA thing make sense. If you arbitrarily said that all the riders with a "--" rating are doping, or are willing to dope when the circumstances are right, then you see how YOU can be correct, Joe Papp's race friend could be correct, and all the people saying it is better could also be correct.

So, I DON'T think you are right when you say little has changed. I think a lot has changed. I don't think this is the end of it by any means. I think that culture has to change some, because the chemistry of medicine will continue to change too, and rapidly. As fast as they are finding ways to test for one thing, something else is coming available, perhaps faster. We have to develop a flexible oversight, and it HAS to be supported, actively, from the top. The only other way for it to succeed would be for a huge portion of the fan base provide the public energy to support the change. But, as all this comes out about LA, it is also daily more obvious how complicit the UCI has been. It seems like they would be happy to head a WWE-like entertainment "sport".

We learn from management professors that organizational change must be supported from above to be effective. We learned from Michael Porter (competitive advantage) that one of the 4 legs a competitive business stands on is a discerning set of consumers. The people on this forum are pretty demanding of a good product, but we are hardly the market. But, our message is spreading.

A lot has changed. A lot has to continue to change to protect what we have gained.
 
Jul 10, 2010
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The Valley said:
. . .
The fact that this article appeared in a major national newspaper gives me a modicum of hope that the tide is turning.

Linky: http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-plaschke-lance-armstrong-20120831-9,0,1276265.column
I particularly like his comments on McGwire. Mark McG literally saved baseball over a period of about 2 years. He was also fairly honest about his use of andro. He admitted it, fairly early, when asked. Although I think he later went into bunker cover mode, he eventually came clean again. As idiotic as the baseball commish is, they banned him from pretty much everything I guess. Which, unfortunately, is probably the right thing to have done, and the UCI should heed the example.

McGwire got pooped on pretty good. Which is a shame. I put a * next to his record in my mind, but that doesn't change that I think he was a good competitor, probably a decent guy, and a great baseball player. BECAUSE he admitted to using andro, my respect for him is higher, not less.

Now we have LA, who respects nobody, continues to lie, and whom the UCI seems not to want to penalize for cheating. What a difference.
 
Walkman said:
Classic BS!

Per Elofsson had an altitude apartment and he was at 15,0-15,4 I think, while smashing the opposition in Lathis 2001. Hard training actually lowers your HB value.
Perhaps. I know little of stuff like this.

Now how did I get this high? I trained quite a lot, and was top 6 in Norway at the time (junior - xc skiing).
 
Aug 1, 2009
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I have just lost any and every respect for Brian Holm :mad: :mad: :mad:

He was just interviewed on Danish Eurosport by Thomas Bay as part of the Vuelta coverage. He was asked to comment on Tyler Hamilton's book. He basically dismissed it all. Thinks that Tyler only wants revenge on Armstrong and that he is not credible because of the twin thing. Can not believe that Bjarne Riis would support doping on his team. Etc. etc.

The above is from memory and I have no link, since this was only just aired on tv. Basically all the omerta talking points were paraded. The statements from people involved in pro cycling are so similar that I am starting to think that there actually exists some sort of mailing list. It makes me mad as hell and I am now switching to Tv2's vuelta coverage. Not that Rolf Sørensen is not supporting omerta as well.

When omerta falls I hope it hits Brian Holm hard.
 
Apr 8, 2010
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HL2037 said:
I have just lost any and every respect for Brian Holm :mad: :mad: :mad:

He was just interviewed on Danish Eurosport by Thomas Bay as part of the Vuelta coverage. He was asked to comment on Tyler Hamilton's book. He basically dismissed it all. Thinks that Tyler only wants revenge on Armstrong and that he is not credible because of the twin thing. Can not believe that Bjarne Riis would support doping on his team. Etc. etc.

The above is from memory and I have no link, since this was only just aired on tv. Basically all the omerta talking points were paraded. The statements from people involved in pro cycling are so similar that I am starting to think that there actually exists some sort of mailing list. It makes me mad as hell and I am now switching to Tv2's vuelta coverage. Not that Rolf Sørensen is not supporting omerta as well.

When omerta falls I hope it hits Brian Holm hard.
He just said that Riis would be incredibly stupid if he organized doping on CSC and that he (Holm) stopped listening to Tyler after Tyler swore on Tugboat's grave.

Besides Holm already admitted doping so I don't know what should hit him 'When omerta falls'. As for Sørensen he has also admitted doping though a bit more tongue in cheek than other confessions (a bit like Riis' 2003 confession).
 
Apr 13, 2010
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Magnus said:
As for Sørensen he has also admitted doping though a bit more tongue in cheek than other confessions (a bit like Riis' 2003 confession).
Has he now? Not that I've followed him like glue, but the last I remember was that he continued to deny? You wouldn't happen to have any links to any non-confession, would you?
 
Aug 1, 2009
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Magnus said:
Besides Holm already admitted doping so I don't know what should hit him 'When omerta falls'. As for Sørensen he has also admitted doping though a bit more tongue in cheek than other confessions (a bit like Riis' 2003 confession).
Enabling doping on the teams he had DSed.

Also if Rolf Sørensen has admitted doping it is news to me and I would be interested to see a link.
 
Apr 13, 2010
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HL2037 said:
I have just lost any and every respect for Brian Holm :mad: :mad: :mad:

He was just interviewed on Danish Eurosport by Thomas Bay as part of the Vuelta coverage. He was asked to comment on Tyler Hamilton's book. He basically dismissed it all. Thinks that Tyler only wants revenge on Armstrong and that he is not credible because of the twin thing. Can not believe that Bjarne Riis would support doping on his team. Etc. etc.

The above is from memory and I have no link, since this was only just aired on tv. Basically all the omerta talking points were paraded. The statements from people involved in pro cycling are so similar that I am starting to think that there actually exists some sort of mailing list. It makes me mad as hell and I am now switching to Tv2's vuelta coverage. Not that Rolf Sørensen is not supporting omerta as well.

When omerta falls I hope it hits Brian Holm hard.
My impression of Holm is that he's pretty straight forward.

I wouldn't imagine him passing judgement on what Riss did or didn't do, especially based on relayed quotes from a yet-to-be-published book. If I remember correctly back in 07 when he had admitted and Riis was about to Holm was asked about Riis and said something along the lines of "If Riis has anything to admit, then I suggest he does it now".

In other words - while he's not going to beat up on Riis - and definitely not in public - he's far from protecting him or defending him. For him to say it would be stupid of Riis and for him to say he stopped listening to Tyler back when he had his silly excuses is basically just stating a fact (Riis would be very stupid) and a personal preference in not listening to Tyler for many years.

To me it doesn't speak anything other about Holm than he's not stepping into the fire for other people and their silliness neither is he their judge and jury. Trust me - if something happens to Riis on the basis of this Holm will be more than happy to shake his head and call him a giant idiot...

Rolf Sorensen said something along the same lines, although he clearly stated that Tyler was "aggressive and vengeful" - somewhat more apologetic and omerta like, but with his own doping still not admitted to I would actually have expected him to defend Riis like Liggett defends Armstrong... By the way - Sorensen had a season or two on Riis team before he quit the sport which was just around the time the EPO test came into use. Not at all an un-interesting coincidence...
 
Apr 8, 2010
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JPM London said:
Has he now? Not that I've followed him like glue, but the last I remember was that he continued to deny? You wouldn't happen to have any links to any non-confession, would you?
http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/jeg-siger-ikke-at-jeg-var-en-engel

Here is a transcription of the video-interview:
http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/tv-rolf-soerensen-afviser-nye-beskyldninger

He published a conversation book with Jørgen Leth this spring. They talk about doping and he say
"- Jeg er fandme stolt af den karriere, jeg har haft og står som meget respekteret indenfor de her rammer i cykelsporten. For mig er det lige så meget overfor mine gamle kolleger, at jeg ikke skal stå og sige, at ’det var kun de andre’. Jeg siger ikke, at jeg var en engel."

Which roughly translates as
" I'm damn proud of the career I've had and I'm very respected within cycling. For me it is also about not saying about my old colleagues that 'it was only the others'. I'm not saying that I was an angel."

In the video the reporter asks him about the bolded part @ 1:55. I find the fake-surprised facial expression quite telling. When he finally replies he says something like "I'll have to read that myself. I didn't even read the book yet." And then continues "You act within the rules of the law..."

In the book he still claims that if not for EPO, he would have won 100 races instead of 50 and that one of the big differences EPO made was that it allowed all riders to train 8 hours a day, something he (Sørensen) was able to do without the use of EPO (thus EPO removed some of the advantage that Sørensens natural talent for training a lot gave him).
 
Apr 8, 2010
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JPM London said:
Rolf Sorensen said something along the same lines, although he clearly stated that Tyler was "aggressive and vengeful" - somewhat more apologetic and omerta like, but with his own doping still not admitted to I would actually have expected him to defend Riis like Liggett defends Armstrong... By the way - Sorensen had a season or two on Riis team before he quit the sport which was just around the time the EPO test came into use. Not at all an un-interesting coincidence...
Sørensen continued at Landbouwkredit-Colnago after he rode for Riis (and got 6th at RvV iirc). He was supposed to have continued riding for Riis but they couldn't agree on the salary.
 
Aug 1, 2009
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"Rolf supports Riis: Tyler is a bitter man"

http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/rolf-stoetter-riis-tyler-en-bitter-mand

- For mig at se lyder de her beskyldninger ret underlige. Der er jo ikke andre, der har snakket om, at Bjarne kender ham her Fuentes-lægen, og Bjarne virker ikke som en mand, der ville sende folk sådan et sted hen. Det er jo et scenarie, hvor tingene er helt ude af kontrol. Det har jeg svært ved at se for mig på Bjarnes hold, siger Rolf Sørensen til sporten.dk.
(These accusations seem rather strange to me. Nobody else have mentioned Bjarne knowing this Fuentes-doctor, and Bjarne doesn't seem like a man who would send people to such a place. It's a scenario where things are completely out of control. I find that difficult to imagine on Bjarnes team, Rolf Sørensen says to sporten.dk)

For mig at se virker Tyler som en meget, meget bitter mand, der er ude på at skabe nogle aggressioner mod nogen andre mennesker, siger Rolf Sørensen.
(To me Tyler looks like a very very bitter man intended on creating agression against other people, Rolf Sørensen says.)
 
Jun 18, 2009
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Funny, because TH doesn't really sound all that "bitter and vengeful" to me?

These guys are frauds, pure and simple. Holm may come across as a "straight shooter" or whatever, but if you're defending a doping facilitator like Riis, you're as big a fraud as he is, period. They all want to desperately hang onto their little piece of the pie, so they'll continue to ignore the truth, and worse, castigate those who tell it.
 
May 19, 2010
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May 26, 2010
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neineinei said:
Leader of the Danish Cycling Association, Tom Lund: Riis is in deep trouble if there is proof of direct contact between him and Eufemiano Fuentes.

http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/dcu-formand-riis-faar-et-stort-problem (Danish)
http://translate.google.no/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http://www.sporten.dk/cykling/dcu-formand-riis-faar-et-stort-problem (Google Translate)
It would be brilliant if he told us all that Riis introduced him to Fuentes.
 
I think Holms comments were to be expected. Perhaps a bit more damming of Riis than expected too. I can't really blame anyone for not being willing to take a strong stand until they've read Tylers book. Also as more evidence from USADA comes out, it should be safer to say your mind.

I'm surprised regarding Arvesen. I've been watching the Vuelta on eurosport, and some days he's an expert commentator. Whenever questions and comments come in from viewers about Contador/valverde doping etc, he leaves it to the commentator to talk about that. He is just silent. Hence I figured he would not say anything. But when neineinei posted the VG article I became pleasantly surprised.
 
Feb 17, 2012
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Just to be clear here. One of the first things Brian Holm said today was; He was doubtful of Tyler's accusations based on his humorous lies a couple of years ago, but if it turns out that Bjarne had any link to Fuentes what so ever he should get kicked out immediately. He wasn't that 'protective' at all towards anyone.

Don't see any reason to lose 'any and every respect for Brian Holm'. The man is hilarious and a really honest guy.
 
Apr 8, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
It would be brilliant if he told us all that Riis introduced him to Fuentes.
Would it be brilliant if Tom Lund said that Riis introduced him to Fuentes:confused:

Anyways. The google translate is rather inaccurate in a critical quote. The "I can only say that there will be proof of a link" should be "I can only say that if there is proof of a link".
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Arvesen on Tyler

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/arvesen-understands-riis-and-csc-doubts

However, Arvesen, who rode for CSC (later Saxo Bank) from 2004 to 2009, said that it was difficult to imagine that his former teammate Hamilton had fabricated the story.

“I have the impression that he has taken issue with his past,” Arvesen said. “He was not honest a few years ago, but now I feel he has put everything on the table. I don’t know why he would say all this if it was not true.”

wow!
 
Apr 13, 2010
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Magnus said:
Thanks for that...

EDIT:
Wow, he's basically stopped denying and turned to non-concessions! It's fairly new as well - not more than a few months. The last I remember on the subject was a few years back where he stood to lose his telly-commentator job and had to promise the editor that he hadn't cheated... Kinda silly. He's really past it all now, isn't he? He's past caring...

Magnus said:
Sørensen continued at Landbouwkredit-Colnago after he rode for Riis (and got 6th at RvV iirc). He was supposed to have continued riding for Riis but they couldn't agree on the salary.
Ah - I should have checked. Just had in my head he stopped afterwards. They probably couldn't agree on the dope either :)
 
So Wiggins says in the cn article that "its bad for the sport."

Nothing else just "its bad for the sport".


Not clear whether he is talking about the case or Lance himself doping, but 2006-7 wiggo would have said " ‘You ******* Lance. You have tainted my achievement of being a Tour de France winner and part of cycling history. You and guys like you are ****ing on my sport"

Clear sign that he is a completely different person since he mysteriously became a gt rider.
 
Jun 13, 2009
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The Hitch said:
So Wiggins says in the cn article that "its bad for the sport."

Nothing else just "its bad for the sport".


Not clear whether he is talking about the case or Lance himself doping, but 2006-7 wiggo would have said " ‘You ******* Lance. You have tainted my achievement of being a Tour de France winner and part of cycling history. You and guys like you are ****ing on my sport"

Clear sign that he is a completely different person since he mysteriously became a gt rider.
So vague. Long live the omerta(!)
 
Apparently this is the original article:
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/952/Wielrennen/article/detail/1495040/2012/09/03/Wiggins-vanavond-in-Wetteren-Nog-geen-tijd-gehad-om-te-genieten.dhtml

"Het is jammer dat het allemaal zo loopt", wou Wiggins daarover nog kwijt. "Dit is niet goed voor de wielersport. Spijtig."

"It's unfortunate that everything's going like this", conceded (?) Wiggins about [Armstrong's case]. "This is not good for cycling. A shame".

Wow, my Dutch is pretty terrible. Corrections are welcome.
 
Your translation is pretty much spot on, for conceded I would use "Was all he wanted to say", although it's not perfect. It's basically an afterthought comment, he doesn't really wanted to talk about it but was ok with giving this sentence. At least, that's the picture this newspaper is painting about his comment.
 
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