Refreshing legendary climbs

[Gigs_98]

There are many threads in this forum which are about rather unknown climbs or threads which are about climbs which are known but the race organizers just don't use them. This isn't a thread like this. In this thread its all about legendary climbs, climbs which are often really great but most people here just don't like them. Sounds kind of strange but actually its logical. Nobody here wants to see how the aso uses Alp d Huez for the 30th time while Mont du Chat still isnt used since 1974. But although the complaining is comprehensible its completely worthless because race organizers wont change anyway. Its just more profitable when the tourmalet is included in the race because julyers will recognized this name and immediately know what to expect. So although personally I will still complain when climbs are used every year I think we should also just think about how legendary climbs could be used better to make the stages in which they are in, more interesting again.

With "legendary climbs" I don't mean that the climb has to be used 10 times in a gt or something like that. I simply mean climbs which every cycling fan knows (for example the ovaro side of the zoncolan has only been used 4 times but nobody would doubt that its already a legend) and of course if we discuss it in here it should be a climb which is either always used the almost same way although there are many possibilities or simply used bad.

I hope this can be a place where we can discuss how some giro/tour/vuelta/"any other cycling race" legends could be refreshed. I will soon post some longer texts about some climbs I really really like, but which are poorly used and maybe some of you will write something in here too.

 

[Netserk]

Tourmalet W - Bagnères-de-Bigorre

Bagnères-de-Bigorre has been a stage finish in 2008 (Aspin) and 2013 (Ancizan) and both times there were more (false) flat after the climbs than there'll be after Tourmalet (~16km after Gripp). As a comparison there were 13.5km of flat after Madeleine in '10. Of course the ascent of Tourmalet W is much harder than that of Aspin and Ancizan, so it should definitely be possible to see some proper GC action on it, though they might descent in pairs. I think a scenario comparable to that of Madeleine '10 is very likely if there isn't a MTF nor an ITT the day after.

Profiles of the descents of the three climbs into Bagnères-de-Bigorre:

 

[Jan the Man]

For the Tour de France

Does the Joux-Plane count? Has not been in the tour since 2006. I will accept the Joux Plane followed by a descent finish to Morzine.

An epic stage before the Alpe would also be good. Last couple of times the Alpe has been used with 110km of racing. One such mountain stage in a GT is fine as it encourages action early but would like to see an epic stage to include the Madeline and Glandon (hard side) before the descent into Alpe D'Huez (similar to 2001).

Mont Ventoux is great but it is always used as a MTF nowadays. A stage with the Ventoux followed by a descent to finish in Carpentras would be cool again.

 

[Gigs_98]

COLLE DELLE FINESTRE

Maybe its a little bit strange to start with a climb which was only used 3 times in the giro but I am already a little bit annoyed about how the giro organizers make stages with the finestre in it. However first of all I start with some data about the climb:
heigth: 2178m
length: 18.5 km
elevation gain: 1694
average gradient: 9.2%
maximum gradient: 14%

That alone makes a very very difficult climb but thats not all, because the last 7.8 km are on gravel roads. Btw, these 7,9 km's are still over 9% steep. Although this first little description sounds like one from a mtf the finestre is a pass with no possibility to make a mtf up there. However I still only have to describe this one side (the north side btw) because if you would come from the south you couldn't descent because of the gravel. To be honest thats not really a problem because the north side is by far more difficult anyway.

Now lets go over to the part which this thread is actually about. What is the problem of the climb and how could it be used better. Well, first of all you have to watch this three profiles to understand my problem:

Yep, the race designers of the giro managed to use a total of 2 different climbs in stages with the finestre included and all of them had the same finish. Until now that wasnt a real problem because these 3 stages were spread over 10 years but I think if we will have 6 more stages which look like this in 20 years we will already question why the hell there are no other climbs included in this stages. You can split the rest of this post into two parts. The one where I will write about possible climbs you could put in front of the finestre and the second one where I will write where you could finish stages with the finestre included.

1.) Which climbs to put in front of the Finestre
There are 4 main possibilities of climbs you could put in front of the finestre, but each of these climbs share the descent with another one of these possibilities.
The most obvious one (and also the only one which was already used) is Sestriere. If you ride from Pinerlo to Sestriere (you could also use Pramartino on the way up there) you have a very very long false flat ascent with some steeper sections at the end. 2005 it was rated 1st category in 2013 2nd category. Personally I think its more 1st because of the length. Although this opportunity is obvious I don't really like it because this climb is very unspectacular and you can't put many other hard climbs in front of it. Moreover the descent is very long and flat so any action on this climb will have hardly any impact on the finestre (maybe you can isolate someone but I think thats hardly possible and even if someone is isolated I think his teammates might come back on the descent).
The other climb which uses the same descent is the Col de Montgenevre. This is the easiest possibility, which means it is a 2nd category climb and the descent is still very flat. Moreover the west ascent of the climb is in france. At the first moment that sounds by far worse than sestriere but this time the climbs you can link to it makes montgenevre pretty great. To be honest this climb would only matter if the tour wants to pass the Finestre or if a giro stage starts inside france because otherwise I don't see a possibility to go from italy to france, over montgenevre to italy and then include the finestre. (I would see some but they would be too difficult). the two most obvious climbs you could put before montgenevre are the Galibier (the side with the telegraphe) or the south side of the izoard. Some people might say that a stage with the galibier would already be to difficult but I think it is okay.

The other descent is the descent of the Col du Mont Cenis. Obviously the first climb which uses it is also the Col du Mont Cenis. The climb has two problems IMO: 1.) its also a pass between france and italy and 2.) the descent is also very very long (but at least not very flat this time) In the tour the Col du Mont Cenis would be a 1st category climb from the north side. However the giro would rate it 2nd category I think. If you use the Col du Mont Cenis you can either come from the maurienne valley or you come over the great col de l'Iseran, the highest pass of the alps, and of course you can also put other passes before the l'Iseran like I did here.

The last serious climb you can put before the finestre is over Moncenisio. This would be a 1st category climb and completely in italy. Like sestriere you cannot put many hard climbs in front of it but the climb is pretty steep so you don't need much more before finestre. IMO not the best way but if you have a finestre stage and nothing before finestre you can actually always use Moncenisio so its great that this climb exists.
Btw, you could also use the Col de I'Echelle before the finestre but I don't see any scenario in which that would make sense

Which climbs to put after the Finestre
Lets start with the most obvious one, which is of course Sestriere. Easy flat mtf, hardly any flat after the descent. I don't want to say much more about this possibility because its the classical one and actually everyone should know it so lets go forward to the second one which is:
Montgenevre is a climb which is comparable to the climb to Sestriere. However you would need to climb first to Sestriere and after a short descent to montgenevre. I posted such a stage on the Race Design thread not long ago. I think it would make a very interesting finish because most people would be isolated after the Finestre. Now that the riders are isolated nobody would want to set the pace up sestriere, so there would be attacks and I think that there would be a possibility of some big gaps due to tactical skirmish. Btw, you could also make a downhill finish in Briancon directly after Montgenevre. If you go even further than Briancon you would have the chance to make a very hard mtf on the Col de Granon. To be honest I am not the biggest fan of that because the Finestre would become less important but it would definitely be interesting to see how such a stage would be ridden.
The most obvious finish besides Sestriere is a finish in Pinerolo. For that the riders first have to ride down the actual finestre descent and than a lot of false descent down to Pinerolo. However the route would probably go over Pramartino a 2nd category climb which was used in a giro stage with the equal finish in 2009. That stage also featured Moncenisio btw.

I am not the biggest fan of this finish but I other people here like the idea for example Libertine Seguros once wrote something like:

The Finestre is difficult enough that after the climb there would be people all over the place. However many riders could come together on the descent, but they would have to spend a lot of energy for that because it is a false descent and not a real one. So the race would completely explode on the Colle Pra Martino.

Of course there are numerous other possibilities to finish the stage after the Finestre but there is only one more I want to mention, which is a mtf in Jafferau. You could do that either with: Finestre - Sestriere - some flat - jafferau or with Finestre - Montgenevre - Col de I'Echelle - Jafferau. Not the biggest fan of both but I think that hardly anyone has ever thought about especially the second one, so I thought its worth mentioning (I know that the street of the Col de I'Echelle isnt always in good condition but according to quäl dich this bad street is only about 200 m long)

Sorry for spelling or grammar mistakes, but I really don't want to read through this a lot so I just hope everything is fine

 

[Brullnux]

For the Finestre, you could have Sampeyre-Agnello-Izoard-Mongenevre-Finestre-Sestriere. The stage will have to start at the base of the Sampeyre climb, though, otherwise the stage is way too long. There is a long piece of flat in the Val Susa which has no alternative but oh well

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

For the Finestre, you could have Sampeyre-Agnello-Izoard-Mongenevre-Finestre-Sestriere. The stage will have to start at the base of the Sampeyre climb, though, otherwise the stage is way too long. There is a long piece of flat in the Val Susa which has no alternative but oh well

Guess what I meant with

I don't see a possibility to go from italy to france, over montgenevre to italy and then include the finestre. (I would see some but they would be too difficult)

I know thats possible but that would mean 4 HC climbs + 1 2nd category climb + 1 3rd category climb. We shouldn't forget that the finestre is actually a HC climb with another 1st category combined and that the Agnello and the Sampeyre are absolute monsters. You could argue that it would be possible without the Sampeyre but even that would push the limits. A stage starting from Jausiers going over the Vars and the Izoard and then Montgenevre - Finestre - Sestriere is definitely more realistic.

 

[Netserk]

If you are going over Izoard and will finish the stage in Sestriere, there's no reason to go over Finestre. Agnello+Izoard+Montgenevre+Sestriere is just perfect, though Sampeyre added wouldn't hurt.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

We haven't seen Superbagnères in a GT since the 80s, and I don't think Catalunya has been there since 1996 either. That means that the natural perfect pair of Port de Balès - Superbagnères for two back to back Pyrenean HCs has never been used.

Aime-La Plagne is another - just four times in the Tour, but two of those are very famous climbs, one the destructive exhibition of Miguel Indurain in 1995 where in total serenity he ground the opposition completely into dust, and the other the legendary Stephen Roche comeback in 1987. It's not been seen since 2002, and a combination with Mont Bisanne and the Cormet de Roseland via Col du Pré would make a stupendously good triple-header although there is a bit of flat between Bourg-St-Maurice and Aime.

The Col de la Bonette has also only appeared four times, twice in the 60s, 1993 and 2008. Following on from the Col de la Lombarde (or leading into it, like in 1993 when they had an MTF at Isola 2000) it is brutal, but there are also the possibilities to make those perfect stages where the monolithic climb is penultimate and an easier climb is last, tempting attacks earlier: from Bonette north as in 1993, you could climb to Auron after the descent; from climbing Bonette south as in 2008 you could finish at Le Super-Sauze. A third, potentially awesome option would be a short stage from Guillestre to Sant'Anna di Vinadio, over the Col de Vars, Col de la Bonette and Col de la Lombarde with a punchy finish. For a longer stage you could go from Briançon and precede it with Izoard for one of the mightiest stages ever.

Esischie/Fauniera is obviously not seen often enough for most fans' liking, plus a great deal of climbs in the Valle d'Aosta - it is now a long time since we last saw Pila as a mountaintop finish. Monte Bondone is kept very rare as well, of course, plus though it's never been in a GT, the Rettenbachferner has developed its own mythos from two times in the Deutschlandtour and once in Suisse owing to its brutality.

The Vuelta doesn't use the Alto de Abantos at the moment as it's in pretty horrendous condition, however as one of the few mountaintops overlooking Madrid it has a certain legendary status to it that would be nice to see restored.

I would also like Jaizkibel to be restored to its rightful place as the key part of the San Sebastián parcours, which the new route takes away.

 

[ILovecycling]

Great idea to open a thread like this, Im an still an amateur in climbs knowledge but its my hobby so I like to read something about it.

e.g. I LOVE the idea of Brullnux, I always wanted to see Sestriers ridden with more tired riders, not only after solo finestre or some other 2 cat climb,... I really like those 'flat'climbs to be raced as a MTF after 2 or 3 tough mountains, always provides an interesting spectacle!

btw I dont know where to put that question, but you guys may know...
Im preparing myself to ride an Angliru next year in the fall :scared: (october or something like that, best form ), and I wanted to ask if you can provide me some help as for gears etc, if you have some personal experience? Im really trying to prepare for it and rip the uphill km into my legs, so an advice would be appreciated

edit: also wanted to share my thought abut Gigs_98 to be the best 2015 edition to this forum.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Oh, and Fedaia. It can never be used enough.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

Great idea to open a thread like this, Im an still an amateur in climbs knowledge but its my hobby so I like to read something about it.

e.g. I LOVE the idea of Brullnux, I always wanted to see Sestriers ridden with more tired riders, not only after solo finestre or some other 2 cat climb,... I really like those 'flat'climbs to be raced as a MTF after 2 or 3 tough mountains, always provides an interesting spectacle!

btw I dont know where to put that question, but you guys may know...
Im preparing myself to ride an Angliru next year in the fall :scared: (october or something like that, best form ), and I wanted to ask if you can provide me some help as for gears etc, if you have some personal experience? Im really trying to prepare for it and rip the uphill km into my legs, so an advice would be appreciated

edit: also wanted to share my thought abut Gigs_98 to be the best 2015 edition to this forum.

\o/
thanks

 

[Billie]

One that has always interested me is a stage finish in La Mongie coming over the Tourmalet from Luz Saint Saveur

 

[staubsauger]

I'd love to finally get back the Ballon d' Alsace after 2005. Maybe as (part of) a mtt instead of a mtf like back in the 70s.

Although-in 2005 of course, it has been a nice breakaway stage with a thrilling descent to Mulhouse. Eventually won by no one else than The Chicken.

 

[May0maniac]

COLLE DELLE FINESTRE

Maybe its a little bit strange to start with a climb which was only used 3 times in the giro but I am already a little bit annoyed about how the giro organizers make stages with the finestre in it. However first of all I start with some data about the climb:
heigth: 2178m
length: 18.5 km
elevation gain: 1694
average gradient: 9.2%
maximum gradient: 14%

That alone makes a very very difficult climb but thats not all, because the last 7.8 km are on gravel roads. Btw, these 7,9 km's are still over 9% steep. Although this first little description sounds like one from a mtf the finestre is a pass with no possibility to make a mtf up there. However I still only have to describe this one side (the north side btw) because if you would come from the south you couldn't descent because of the gravel. To be honest thats not really a problem because the north side is by far more difficult anyway.

Now lets go over to the part which this thread is actually about. What is the problem of the climb and how could it be used better. Well, first of all you have to watch this three profiles to understand my problem:

Yep, the race designers of the giro managed to use a total of 2 different climbs in stages with the finestre included and all of them had the same finish. Until now that wasnt a real problem because these 3 stages were spread over 10 years but I think if we will have 6 more stages which look like this in 20 years we will already question why the hell there are no other climbs included in this stages. You can split the rest of this post into two parts. The one where I will write about possible climbs you could put in front of the finestre and the second one where I will write where you could finish stages with the finestre included.

1.) Which climbs to put in front of the Finestre
There are 4 main possibilities of climbs you could put in front of the finestre, but each of these climbs share the descent with another one of these possibilities.
The most obvious one (and also the only one which was already used) is Sestriere. If you ride from Pinerlo to Sestriere (you could also use Pramartino on the way up there) you have a very very long false flat ascent with some steeper sections at the end. 2005 it was rated 1st category in 2013 2nd category. Personally I think its more 1st because of the length. Although this opportunity is obvious I don't really like it because this climb is very unspectacular and you can't put many other hard climbs in front of it. Moreover the descent is very long and flat so any action on this climb will have hardly any impact on the finestre (maybe you can isolate someone but I think thats hardly possible and even if someone is isolated I think his teammates might come back on the descent).
The other climb which uses the same descent is the Col de Montgenevre. This is the easiest possibility, which means it is a 2nd category climb and the descent is still very flat. Moreover the west ascent of the climb is in france. At the first moment that sounds by far worse than sestriere but this time the climbs you can link to it makes montgenevre pretty great. To be honest this climb would only matter if the tour wants to pass the Finestre or if a giro stage starts inside france because otherwise I don't see a possibility to go from italy to france, over montgenevre to italy and then include the finestre. (I would see some but they would be too difficult). the two most obvious climbs you could put before montgenevre are the Galibier (the side with the telegraphe) or the south side of the izoard. Some people might say that a stage with the galibier would already be to difficult but I think it is okay.

The other descent is the descent of the Col du Mont Cenis. Obviously the first climb which uses it is also the Col du Mont Cenis. The climb has two problems IMO: 1.) its also a pass between france and italy and 2.) the descent is also very very long (but at least not very flat this time) In the tour the Col du Mont Cenis would be a 1st category climb from the north side. However the giro would rate it 2nd category I think. If you use the Col du Mont Cenis you can either come from the maurienne valley or you come over the great col de l'Iseran, the highest pass of the alps, and of course you can also put other passes before the l'Iseran like I did here.

The last serious climb you can put before the finestre is over Moncenisio. This would be a 1st category climb and completely in italy. Like sestriere you cannot put many hard climbs in front of it but the climb is pretty steep so you don't need much more before finestre. IMO not the best way but if you have a finestre stage and nothing before finestre you can actually always use Moncenisio so its great that this climb exists.
Btw, you could also use the Col de I'Echelle before the finestre but I don't see any scenario in which that would make sense

Which climbs to put after the Finestre
Lets start with the most obvious one, which is of course Sestriere. Easy flat mtf, hardly any flat after the descent. I don't want to say much more about this possibility because its the classical one and actually everyone should know it so lets go forward to the second one which is:
Montgenevre is a climb which is comparable to the climb to Sestriere. However you would need to climb first to Sestriere and after a short descent to montgenevre. I posted such a stage on the Race Design thread not long ago. I think it would make a very interesting finish because most people would be isolated after the Finestre. Now that the riders are isolated nobody would want to set the pace up sestriere, so there would be attacks and I think that there would be a possibility of some big gaps due to tactical skirmish. Btw, you could also make a downhill finish in Briancon directly after Montgenevre. If you go even further than Briancon you would have the chance to make a very hard mtf on the Col de Granon. To be honest I am not the biggest fan of that because the Finestre would become less important but it would definitely be interesting to see how such a stage would be ridden.
The most obvious finish besides Sestriere is a finish in Pinerolo. For that the riders first have to ride down the actual finestre descent and than a lot of false descent down to Pinerolo. However the route would probably go over Pramartino a 2nd category climb which was used in a giro stage with the equal finish in 2009. That stage also featured Moncenisio btw.

I am not the biggest fan of this finish but I other people here like the idea for example Libertine Seguros once wrote something like:

The Finestre is difficult enough that after the climb there would be people all over the place. However many riders could come together on the descent, but they would have to spend a lot of energy for that because it is a false descent and not a real one. So the race would completely explode on the Colle Pra Martino.

Of course there are numerous other possibilities to finish the stage after the Finestre but there is only one more I want to mention, which is a mtf in Jafferau. You could do that either with: Finestre - Sestriere - some flat - jafferau or with Finestre - Montgenevre - Col de I'Echelle - Jafferau. Not the biggest fan of both but I think that hardly anyone has ever thought about especially the second one, so I thought its worth mentioning (I know that the street of the Col de I'Echelle isnt always in good condition but according to quäl dich this bad street is only about 200 m long)

Sorry for spelling or grammar mistakes, but I really don't want to read through this a lot so I just hope everything is fine

Great post, but there's another option for Finestre, a Pra Catinat MTF, it could be similar to the Giau - Tre Cime combination.
Pra Cantinat is a short steep climb, 5,9km at 9,7 that starts near Fenestrelle, right at the end of the Finestre descent. Maybe it's a little bit too hard and could hinder the action on Finestre, but with another climb before Finestre, the realistic option would be Moncenisio, it could be one hell of a stage.
A possible stage could look like this:

Pra Cantinat used to be a big sanatorium, today it's a wellness hotel and a congress center.
There is enough space and a big enough parking lot to host a MTF, that wouldn't be the problem.
Pra Cantinat:

 

[Bolder]

Re:

For the Tour de France

Does the Joux-Plane count? Has not been in the tour since 2006. I will accept the Joux Plane followed by a descent finish to Morzine.

An epic stage before the Alpe would also be good. Last couple of times the Alpe has been used with 110km of racing. One such mountain stage in a GT is fine as it encourages action early but would like to see an epic stage to include the Madeline and Glandon (hard side) before the descent into Alpe D'Huez (similar to 2001).

Mont Ventoux is great but it is always used as a MTF nowadays. A stage with the Ventoux followed by a descent to finish in Carpentras would be cool again.

The Morzine side of Joux Plan is closed because of a number of fairly severe washouts. You can ride it if you step carefully around them. JP is a great climb -- not too long, but starts pretty much straight up from the valley. There are a couple of nasty ramps in the middle then you either have a flat finish or (if the Morzine road is repaired) a gnarly descent leading right up to another climb (the road to Avoriaz). I'd love to see a stage that includes the ascent from Cluses down into Samoens, then up to JP, down to Morzine and up Avoriaz. That's about 30k of climbing, not necessarily otherwordly hard but difficult enough that I think you'd have pretty big gaps. Any finish on JP would be mobbed with specatators as it's less than an hour from Geneva.

 

[hrotha]

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[Netserk]

Re:

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How would you use that in a different way than it was used in 1996 or 2007? Do like in 2007 but finish at PSM?

In fantasy land where there would be a stage finish in Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port, you could do PSM+Larrau+Bagargui+Burdincurutcheta on the way (or some of those never to be used Basque climbs since this is fantasy land after all), but that side of Larrau is lame. I'm not really sure where the closest probable stage finish would be in Spain (for the Vuelta), but I think it'd be some distance away.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

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How would you use that in a different way than it was used in 1996 or 2007? Do like in 2007 but finish at PSM?

In fantasy land where there would be a stage finish in Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port, you could do PSM+Larrau+Bagargui+Burdincurutcheta on the way (or some of those never to be used Basque climbs since this is fantasy land after all), but that side of Larrau is lame. I'm not really sure where the closest probable stage finish would be in Spain (for the Vuelta), but I think it'd be some distance away.

I think someone has told me some time ago that he did a stage that finished on the Alto Laza. That would be a great finish indeed but I think there isnt enough space up there.

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

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How would you use that in a different way than it was used in 1996 or 2007? Do like in 2007 but finish at PSM?

In fantasy land where there would be a stage finish in Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port, you could do PSM+Larrau+Bagargui+Burdincurutcheta on the way (or some of those never to be used Basque climbs since this is fantasy land after all), but that side of Larrau is lame. I'm not really sure where the closest probable stage finish would be in Spain (for the Vuelta), but I think it'd be some distance away.

I think someone has told me some time ago that he did a stage that finished on the Alto Laza. That would be a great finish indeed but I think there isnt enough space up there.

Then we are right back to fantasy land

 

[ice&fire]

Re: Re:

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How would you use that in a different way than it was used in 1996 or 2007? Do like in 2007 but finish at PSM?

In fantasy land where there would be a stage finish in Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port, you could do PSM+Larrau+Bagargui+Burdincurutcheta on the way (or some of those never to be used Basque climbs since this is fantasy land after all), but that side of Larrau is lame. I'm not really sure where the closest probable stage finish would be in Spain (for the Vuelta), but I think it'd be some distance away.

Distance to the finish didn't matter in 1996. Watching PSM 2 weeks ago I recalled some of the Pyrenean stages in the 80's and early 90's when the first mountain stage had some hard climbs but finished in a town (Pau '86 and '87 and Jaca '91). This suggests me something like Burdincurutcheta+Larrau+PSM+Ichère+Marie Blanque. I'd prefer that over the _________/ we got served this year as the first mountain stage.

 

[Netserk]

So a beefed up Cambo-Les-Bains -> Pau ('06)?

Nowadays I think a stage like that would have as much action as the vanilla version^^ had.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

How about refreshing Alpe d'Huez by... not making it an MTF? Going instead for a stage over, say, Croix de Fer or Glandon, then up Alpe d'Huez, over Sarenne and finishing at Les-Deux-Alpes?

Also Galibier south could lead to a smaller finish at Valmeinier.

Something that's been intriguing me lately is that, with the Tour's love of doing the same climb twice and recent discovery of the Col de Chaussy, if they would consider doing one-and-a-half times the same climb - from different sides? My particular suggestion would be with perhaps my favourite of the Tour's overused Alpine climbs, the great Col de la Madeleine. You could climb it from the north, and descend down via the D76 into La Chambre, before climbing back up on the D213 to finish at the ski station at St-François-Longchamp. Even better, you could add the Col de Chaussy between the two sides of Madeleine (with the top of the second side cut off, meaning the course wouldn't criss-cross itself and saving distance to travel for buses etc.) for a run in with an HC climb 60km out, a long difficult descent, then two cat.1 climbs back to back, the penultimate cresting just 19km from the line. Given ASO's current behaviour this would seem a more likely way of adding in extra climbs than them to suddenly start using Grand-Naves or Valmorel...

 

[Gigs_98]

GROßGLOCKNER HOCHALPENSTRAßE

And again I am not sure if you can even call this a legendary climb but, I live in austria, and here its the most famous one . At least the giro featured this climb too sometimes so I think its at least arguable to put this climb in this thread.

IMO the Großglockner Höhenstraße is one of the best passes of europe if you only consider the climb itself and not which climbs you can link to it. (does anyone here know 5 alp passes which are more difficult than the Hochtor, if you consider both sides of the pass?) But the big problem of the pass is that you can only link it very poorly to other famous climbs. Thats mainly because on both sides the steep street is followed by a flat one with almost no crossroads so you have to use this flat sections if you want to use the Großglockner Hochalpenstraße. Of course there are still some passes behind these flat sections:
1.) The Dientner Sattel or the Filzensattel can be used after a descent of the north side. Both are 2nd category climbs which share big parts of their ascent. The most famous one is the combination Hochtor - Dientner Sattel - St. Johann Alpendorf, because it was used several times in the Österreich Rundfahrt. Of course there are also some other finishes you can put after these climbs but none of these are really good IMO
2.) The Pass Thurn is a pass between Mittersill and Kitzbühel so we already have two reasons why this climb (which is also 2nd category btw) is better than the Dientner/Filzensattel, because you can either make a downhill finish in Kitzbühel or a mtf on the Kitzbüheler Horn, which is brutal when you already have the Großglockner in your legs.
3.) The Felbertauern Pass starts almost on the same place where Pass Thurn starts. The good thing about it is that the Felbertauern is a 1st category climb and not only 2nd category. After the descent of the pass you can either make a downhill finish in Martrei or my personal favorite a uphill finish in Prägrarten.
4.) The only really good option in the south of the Großglockner is the Iselsbergpass. If you come from the south and ride the Großglockner after the Iselsberg it is a 2nd category climb, in the other direction its only 3rd category. However if you use the 3rd category climb you have the chance to make some interesting finishes. Either you make a downhill finish in Lienz or you use one of the many brutal HC mtf's from Lienz, which are all over 10% steep. The options are: Lienzer Dolomitenhütte (7km with 13.6%); the Hochstein (12km with 10.7%); and the Faschingalm, although I am not completely sure if you can make a finish up there (8.8km with 11.2%). Yep thats pure brutality. You can also use the Pustertaler Höhenstraße after the Iselsberg so you would have another 1st category climb but I am not completely sure where to finish after that. (Ofc there are some possibilities but nothing that immediately catched my eye)

Well the point is, that although there are some climbs you can put after the Großglockner the only ones that can create a really gc relevant stages are mtf's, so we wouldnt see much action on the Großglockner. So what can you do to change that? To be honest the answer is very simple. You just have to finish somewhere on the Großglockner Höhenstraße. The by far most obvious and IMO also best option is a mtf on the Franz-Josephs-Höhe. This ascent starts in the middle of the southern climb. This means you basically have to options how to get there. Either as a long mtf with the start of the climb Heiligenblut like in the Österreich Rundfahrt 2010, or a little bit like "finestre - Sestriere" like in the giro 1972.

this is IMO the by far greatest thing you can do with the Großglockner. First an absolute monster pass, then a short descent and as a final a short mtf with medium steepness. No doubt that this would be incredibly great. This is also something I would love to see in the giro again, but I think it will take some time until the giro visits austria for the next time.
Besides parking places on the Fuschertörl, and the Kasereck which could also be used as mtf's the second mtf I would love to see one day is a mtf on the Edelweißspitze, the highest point of the Großglockner Höhenstraße. This climb starts more or less at the Fuschertörl (the crossroad is about 100-200m before Fuschertörl) The best way to use this would probably be to come from the north. It doesn't really matters which climbs you put before that because this climb would be so difficult that there wouldnt be any action before the start of the ascent. This mtf would be 19.3 km long and over 8.8% steep. Moreover the last 1.4 kilometers are over 10 % steep and on cobbles. Thats brutality.

I think thats pretty much it. Maybe a downhill finish in heiligenblut is also possible but thats like making a finish in edolo after the mortirolo instead of an uphill finish in aprica.

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Which climbs to put after the Finestre
Lets start with the most obvious one, which is of course Sestriere. Easy flat mtf, hardly any flat after the descent. I don't want to say much more about this possibility because its the classical one and actually everyone should know it so lets go forward to the second one which is:
Montgenevre is a climb which is comparable to the climb to Sestriere. However you would need to climb first to Sestriere and after a short descent to montgenevre. I posted such a stage on the Race Design thread not long ago. I think it would make a very interesting finish because most people would be isolated after the Finestre. Now that the riders are isolated nobody would want to set the pace up sestriere, so there would be attacks and I think that there would be a possibility of some big gaps due to tactical skirmish. Btw, you could also make a downhill finish in Briancon directly after Montgenevre. If you go even further than Briancon you would have the chance to make a very hard mtf on the Col de Granon. To be honest I am not the biggest fan of that because the Finestre would become less important but it would definitely be interesting to see how such a stage would be ridden.
The most obvious finish besides Sestriere is a finish in Pinerolo. For that the riders first have to ride down the actual finestre descent and than a lot of false descent down to Pinerolo. However the route would probably go over Pramartino a 2nd category climb which was used in a giro stage with the equal finish in 2009. That stage also featured Moncenisio btw.

I am not the biggest fan of this finish but I other people here like the idea for example Libertine Seguros once wrote something like:

The Finestre is difficult enough that after the climb there would be people all over the place. However many riders could come together on the descent, but they would have to spend a lot of energy for that because it is a false descent and not a real one. So the race would completely explode on the Colle Pra Martino.

Of course there are numerous other possibilities to finish the stage after the Finestre but there is only one more I want to mention, which is a mtf in Jafferau. You could do that either with: Finestre - Sestriere - some flat - jafferau or with Finestre - Montgenevre - Col de I'Echelle - Jafferau. Not the biggest fan of both but I think that hardly anyone has ever thought about especially the second one, so I thought its worth mentioning (I know that the street of the Col de I'Echelle isnt always in good condition but according to quäl dich this bad street is only about 200 m long)

Sorry for spelling or grammar mistakes, but I really don't want to read through this a lot so I just hope everything is fine

There are actually some rumours about la Strada dell'Assietta. It is an unpaved former military road of 35 km. It starts after a short descent from Finestre. It seems like Sestriere contacted ASO with several planned routes for a finish in Sestriere or on Colle Basset. For that they would of course include Finestre and pave Strada dell'Assietta or the part from Sestriere to Colle Basset.

 

[Gigs_98]

@Max Rockatansky
Ive heard about such rumors some time ago but that didnt really call my attention because I thought it is quite unlikely that this will really be done. Now that I watched these routes more closly I have to say that maybe its really possible because they really only have to pave the last few kilometers of the road. The rest of these routes seem to be rideable. Would be a great addition to the Finestre.
I also forgot to mention a double sestriere mtf which would mean that the riders first go up sestriere the usual way, then descent to Cesana Torinese and then go up again via Sauze di Cesana
I just designed a the finish of such a stage which means:
Susa - Finestre - Strada dell'Assietta - Sestriere - Cesana Torinese - Sestriere