Remco Evenepoel

[Blobs]

He's been killing everyone since he got on a bike. Now that's a doper I can tolerate. The clowns who were nothings then became world beaters and tried to convince everyone how clean they are, that bugs.

People can't seriously think anyone at the sharp end is clean still, can they? Come on folks. The pretense ended when they suppressed Froome's positive. They just weren't having any more bad pub. It's been another level for years now.

If you start doping early and to an extreme degree, you're fine by me. It's those clowns who are hesitant to start, and don't do it to the same absurd degree, who are the disgraceful cheats.

That seems to be a common opinion here. I'm not quite on board with that.

 

[pastronef]

If you start doping early and to an extreme degree, you're fine by me. It's those clowns who are hesitant to start, and don't do it to the same absurd degree, who are the disgraceful cheats.

That seems to be a common opinion here. I'm not quite on board with that.

and Dacooley's wise words come hand

"i'm more baffled about drawing the line between acceptable and unacceptable doping depending on sentiments to one or another athlete"

 

[Krzysztof_O]

The guy's skin is more aerodynamic than suits. He's a bullet. Soon sports cars producers will draw inspiration from Remco. Get ready for 60+ kph TTs soon and winning GTs on flat stages.

 

[ppanther92]

If you start doping early and to an extreme degree, you're fine by me. It's those clowns who are hesitant to start, and don't do it to the same absurd degree, who are the disgraceful cheats.

That seems to be a common opinion here. I'm not quite on board with that.

I think the common opinion is rather - doping is less widespread and less professional in junior racing, so riders that show talent early on are more likely "naturally" talented. To what degree thats true - who knows? But I have to admit I find myself in this thought process sometimes.

 

[Blobs]

I think the common opinion is rather - doping is less widespread and less professional in junior racing, so riders that show talent early on are more likely "naturally" talented. To what degree thats true - who knows? But I have to admit I find myself in this thought process sometimes.

Right, but that would also mean there would be more of an advantage to be gained if you do dope in juniors. We know doping does exist in juniors as positives there are not unheard of.

 

[ppanther92]

Right, but that would also mean there would be more of an advantage to be gained if you do dope in juniors. We know doping does exist in juniors as positives there are not unheard of.

I know, so its not trivial.

 

[red_flanders]

If you start doping early and to an extreme degree, you're fine by me. It's those clowns who are hesitant to start, and don't do it to the same absurd degree, who are the disgraceful cheats.

That seems to be a common opinion here. I'm not quite on board with that.

Sure, that makes sense. He’s not actually talented, it’s just magic doping from day 1. FFS.

 

[Netserk]

He's been killing everyone since he got on a bike. Now that's a doper I can tolerate. The clowns who were nothings then became world beaters and tried to convince everyone how clean they are, that bugs.

People can't seriously think anyone at the sharp end is clean still, can they? Come on folks. The pretense ended when they suppressed Froome's positive. They just weren't having any more bad pub. It's been another level for years now.

If you are now absolutely sure that Evenepoel dopes (I am too), when did you first think it was more likely to be the case than not? Or rather, when would that be in retrospect? 2019? 2018?

 

[Netserk]

and Dacooley's wise words come hand

"i'm more baffled about drawing the line between acceptable and unacceptable doping depending on sentiments to one or another athlete"

Don't make me tap the sign:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1648060549174001665

View: https://twitter.com/omarali50/status/1648060549174001665

 

[Blobs]

Sure, that makes sense. He’s not actually talented, it’s just magic doping from day 1. FFS.

Of course he's talented. All the riders that reach the pinnacle of the sport are. The point is if a rider starts doping a couple years before an equally talented rider, he's going to look more naturally talented because his success came earlier.

 

[red_flanders]

Of course he's talented. All the riders that reach the pinnacle of the sport are. The point is if a rider starts doping a couple years before an equally talented rider, he's going to look more naturally talented because his success came earlier.

Your point wasn’t subtle or complicated, we all got it.

You’re of course free to think that the guy who‘s been trouncing the field since the day he threw his leg over a bike is somehow comparable to everyone else. If that makes sense to you, great.

If you are now absolutely sure that Evenepoel dopes (I am too), when did you first think it was more likely to be the case than not? Or rather, when would that be in retrospect? 2019? 2018?

A bit off a silly exercise in speculation, as I have no real idea. And “absolutely sure” is your phrasing, not mine. I’d genuinely be shocked if anyone at the sharp end isn’t, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything. But I’ll give you a response.

I recall thinking during his first year that the team would keep him away from that for a bit if they had any brains. I think anytime after that first year is a reasonable guess. Maybe it’s degrees. Maybe it takes a while to find what works. I seriously doubt it’s the binary doping/not-doping which seems to be how it’s so often discussed on forums.

 

[Netserk]

While there are plenty shades of doping, the distinction between never having doped and then having doped is quite binary, and it’s easy to know when that line has been crossed.

 

[Blobs]

Your point wasn’t subtle or complicated, we all got it.

You’re of course free to think that the guy who‘s been trouncing the field since the day he threw his leg over a bike is somehow comparable to everyone else. If that makes sense to you, great.

Nothing in that post indicated you understood my point.

You're also free to think that the most dominant junior rider ever did it clean, if that makes sense to you.

I like Remco by the way, but I think he deserves the same scrutiny as the other freaks.

 

[red_flanders]

Nothing in that post indicated you understood my point.

You're also free to think that the most dominant junior rider ever did it clean, if that makes sense to you.

I like Remco by the way, but I think he deserves the same scrutiny as the other freaks.

No argument with the last. Except...what's the scrutiny? Forums? The UCI is clearly not targeting money-making riders and haven't been for some time. There's no scrutiny that matters. Performances across the board are spectacular. You even have Armstrong and Hincapie saying they could never hang with the current crop of superstars, THOSE guys are blown away.

As far as doing it clean, who knows? Do you think he was on some program 2 levels above all the other riders as a junior, and still is? Because he's killing everyone now like he was then. What other explanation is there for his performances since he got on a bike? The blindingly obvious conclusion is that he's just a lot better than everyone else, and has been from day one. Not sure why this is even a discussion. He's a massive talent. They exist.

 

[red_flanders]

While there are plenty shades of doping, the distinction between never having doped and then having doped is quite binary, and it’s easy to know when that line has been crossed.

It is? Not for me. There are all kinds of programs, from grey area doping to actual doping, to full on programs. I have no idea who's on what, but what does seem obvious is that performances now are way, way over the believable line as a group, and top riders are doping to win. But if you can tell, great.

 

[Black Betsy]

Nah, merely beating tired folks from Romandie ain't making the cut for me

 

[Netserk]

It is?

Do you find the WADA code unclear? A rider will know or at least should be able to know when they start breaking the rules.

That's the binary aspect.

I think it's more likely than not that he crossed that line as a junior.

 

[red_flanders]

Do you find the WADA code unclear?

Weird question since no one was referring to WADA.

A rider will know or at least should be able to know when they start breaking the rules.

That's the binary aspect.

I think it's more likely than not that he crossed that line as a junior.

Great. Entirely possible.

 

[Savant12]

Remco is a talented reactor since he’s been on it from crushing everything in the Juniors. The doping is clearly improving him as he ages. But of course, it’s all just down to his natural talent and aero abilities.

 

[Blobs]

No argument with the last. Except...what's the scrutiny? Forums? The UCI is clearly not targeting money-making riders and haven't been for some time. There's no scrutiny that matters. Performances across the board are spectacular. You even have Armstrong and Hincapie saying they could never hang with the current crop of superstars, THOSE guys are blown away.

As far as doing it clean, who knows? Do you think he was on some program 2 levels above all the other riders as a junior, and still is? Because he's killing everyone now like he was then. What other explanation is there for his performances since he got on a bike? The blindingly obvious conclusion is that he's just a lot better than everyone else, and has been from day one. Not sure why this is even a discussion. He's a massive talent. They exist.

I do think he was on something good, early. I also think he's exceptionally talented. To be that far ahead of the competition (especially as a beginner against much more experienced riders) I would think you'd need a combination of the two.

All speculation of course, but also not really relevant to my point. What I take issue with, is the hypocrisy of tolerating some dopers and berating other. We don't know their talent to doping ratios, and so the guy who starts at 15 could be seen as the natural talent, given a free pass to dope, and be celebrated as a hero, while the guy who tries to do it clean but realises he can't, and succumbs to the pressure at 24, might be vilified.

You either tolerate doping in general or you don't. Otherwise you're a hypocrite.

Do you by any chance remember when Lance and Hincapie said that suff? I'm guessing it's on The Move podcast? I'd love to hear humble Lance. That sounds like a unicorn to me

 

[Rackham]

No argument with the last. Except...what's the scrutiny? Forums? The UCI is clearly not targeting money-making riders and haven't been for some time. There's no scrutiny that matters. Performances across the board are spectacular. You even have Armstrong and Hincapie saying they could never hang with the current crop of superstars, THOSE guys are blown away.

As far as doing it clean, who knows? Do you think he was on some program 2 levels above all the other riders as a junior, and still is? Because he's killing everyone now like he was then. What other explanation is there for his performances since he got on a bike? The blindingly obvious conclusion is that he's just a lot better than everyone else, and has been from day one. Not sure why this is even a discussion. He's a massive talent. They exist.

Regarding Lance Armstrong's comment, we all know he'd be at the exact same level as these current top performers despite what he claims. Why? Because a 29 year old L.A. in 2023 would be on the exact same program as these current top guys are. Aka he wouldn't be still using his 2001 methods (his own peak) versus the 2023 methods.

And for what it's worth, Armstrong was a massive talent as well. The man was a physical beast ready to do absolutely anything (& whatever it takes) to win. He'd take one look at Evenepoel/Pogacar & get with the program.

 

[pastronef]

What I take issue with, is the hypocrisy of tolerating some dopers and berating other. We don't know their talent to doping ratios, and so the guy who starts at 15 could be seen as the natural talent, given a free pass to dope, and be celebrated as a hero, while the guy who tries to do it clean but realises he can't, and succumbs to the pressure at 24, might be vilified.

You either tolerate doping in general or you don't. Otherwise you're a hypocrite.

yep, SPOT ON

 

[Riek s]

Problem with that is that you are making the assumption that Junior racing involves enough money to warrant those doping levels.

Nobody starts with a sport, goes into the best form of doping at the beginning and is expected to be top in that sport. If you do, you will never make it, because you don't have a clue how your body goes/excels/issues/... That is just one big major recipe for breaking your body. (higher stress then tendons can handle), taking testosterone during puberty...
they also don't have a fully fledged physique yet on which you can properly designate the correct doping choices. There is absolutely no long term gain in that. (rather the contrary). So assuming that someone is on a high level/high cost/high maintainance doping shedule before making a single $ is extremely far fetched. At best odds, during the juniors most of the doping are on the very light side of things.
Its a whole other matter when we are talking about U23. People after puberty and with lots of training in the bag already and with a vision on pro-tour teams.

 

[Blobs]

Problem with that is that you are making the assumption that Junior racing involves enough money to warrant those doping levels.

Nobody starts with a sport, goes into the best form of doping at the beginning and is expected to be top in that sport. If you do, you will never make it, because you don't have a clue how your body goes/excels/issues/... That is just one big major recipe for breaking your body. (higher stress then tendons can handle), taking testosterone during puberty...
they also don't have a fully fledged physique yet on which you can properly designate the correct doping choices. There is absolutely no long term gain in that. (rather the contrary). So assuming that someone is on a high level/high cost/high maintainance doping shedule before making a single $ is extremely far fetched. At best odds, during the juniors most of the doping are on the very light side of things.
Its a whole other matter when we are talking about U23. People after puberty and with lots of training in the bag already and with a vision on pro-tour teams.

You are making he assumption that because there is risk involved and it's not profitable early on, that no one would ever do it. I just don't agree with that.

Remco was already on his way to becoming a pro athlete before he started cycling. He is the son of a former pro cyclist who rode in the 90's. The idea that when he switched to cycling he was going to do whatever it takes right off the bat, legal or illegal, to get to the top, does not seem unreasonable to me.

Image seeing a teenage bodybuilding contest where the competitors are generally around 80 kg and then there is one guy who is 110 kg and totally shredded. Would you not be a little suspicious that maybe he took steroids?

 

[Riek s]

You are making he assumption that because there is risk involved and it's not profitable early on, that no one would ever do it. I just don't agree with that.

Remco was already on his way to becoming a pro athlete before he started cycling. He is the son of a former pro cyclist who rode in the 90's. The idea that when he switched to cycling he was going to do whatever it takes right off the bat, legal or illegal, to get to the top, does not seem unreasonable to me.

Image seeing a teenage bodybuilding contest where the competitors are generally around 80 kg and then there is one guy who is 110 kg and totally shredded. Would you not be a little suspicious that maybe he took steroids?

That's the point, that teenager won't stay ahead. Not only because of levelling playing field but also because he started before his natural max. He has no idea how to train, change, read his body. Not only will his advantage diminish he will also be riddled by physical problems.

And I doubt his father will use microdosing epo on a 16year old with no return.