Research on Belief in God

[rhubroma]

I don't think it is such a good thing. As "religion" becomes less and less popular, I think you will find that morality will go down as well - In fact it already has. The farther we get from God the more immoral our society will become.

This is pure religious arrogance. Society has never been made more moral because of religion. The history of Western Civilization is one long tale of every cruelty and suppression conducted in the name of religion. Probably the greatest genocide in history, the near extinction of native Americans, north and south, around 150 million between the XVI and XIX centuries, was conducted by Europeans and then Americans with bible in hand.

The horrors of the XX century were merely the fruit of industrialized means of mass murder. Even today, in our so-called secularized society, acts of every kind of barbary are still being committed under the aegis of a "divine calling," when they aren't perpetrated directly in God's name, for which nothing is more repugnant and criminal.

The moment the religious realize that they have no right to claim the high moral ground, a great deal of this idiocy, folly and arrogance will disappear, but since they won't do this, otherwise their entire sense of self-righteous hypocrisy is exposed for what it is and indeed entire belief system comes crashing down, society will still have to deal with it.

That you even consider pornography in the same class as rape, which naturally rests upon a belief that there are "impure" and "indecent" acts between consentual adults (a "moralism" that has nothing to do with morals), tells me that civil society is still very much in its embrionic state. Perhaps in another 1000 years or so we'll get there though. Although this entire depends on the religious coming on terms.

 

[Jspear]

This is pure religious arrogance. Society has never been made more moral because of religion. The history of Western Civilization is one long tale of every cruelty and suppression conducted in the name of religion. Probably the greatest genocide in history, the near extinction of native Americans, north and south, around 150 million between the XVI and XIX centuries, was conducted by Europeans and then Americans with bible in hand.

The horrors of the XX century were merely the fruit of industrialized means of mass murder. Even today, in our so-called secularized society, acts of every kind of barbary are still being committed under the aegis of a "divine calling," when they aren't perpetrated directly in God's name, for which nothing is more repugnant and criminal.

You probably already know where I stand on this issue so I'll keep it brief. I condemn many of the same things that you condemn. If one wants to use the bible to condone such things, they must mutilate it.

The moment the religious realize that they have no right to claim the high moral ground, a great deal of this idiocy, folly and arrogance will disappear, but since they won't do this, otherwise their entire sense of self-righteous hypocrisy is exposed for what it is and indeed entire belief system comes crashing down, society will still have to deal with it.

Where do you believe morals come from? How do we determine that lying is wrong?

That you even consider pornography in the same class as rape, which naturally rests upon a belief that there are "impure" and "indecent" acts between concentious adults (a "moralism" that has nothing to do with morals), tells me that civil society is still very much in its embrionic state. Perhaps in another 1000 years or so we'll get there though. Although this entire depends on the religious coming on terms.

I only consider pornography as the same as rape in that they are both sin. Of course there is a huge difference between the two acts. I simply brought that up as one example showing that morality hasn't gotten better in our new modern society.

 

[rhubroma]

You probably already know where I stand on this issue so I'll keep it brief. I condemn many of the same things that you condemn. If one wants to use the bible to condone such things, they must mutilate it.



Where do you believe morals come from? How do we determine that lying is wrong?



I only consider pornography as the same as rape in that they are both sin. Of course there is a huge difference between the two acts. I simply brought that up as one example showing that morality hasn't gotten better in our new modern society.

"Morals" come from social evolution, for which it is better for the community to behave with civility than otherwise. They are not divine mandates, nor "natural," but acquired and it has been an arduous task that certainly is not reduced to the Ten Commandments, however civilizing they may have been at the time. Though it also has to be recalled that an "eye for an eye" was then similarly written in the Book of laws and considered morally correct, thus the evolution of which I have spoken. Such self-justice, in civil society, however, is justly criminal from the perspective of the legal state.

Your concept of sin is a religious fabrication. There is no sin, only unlawful behavior, however this may vary from society to society. For example it is unlawful for women to drive in Saudi Arabia, because women are the property of men and their independence to just go some place as they please, without male permission or company, represents a danger to the patriarcal and theocratic state. Now given that if it were up to you I suspect pornography would be outlawed, the more the religious have a say in determining the law, the more we become like Saudi Arabia, though this is merely repugnant and grotesque. Of course no system of law can account for every offense and every hurt, though this is why we can exercise our own consciences, which vary from individual to individual, and that by no means are the religious intrinsically better equipped to behave more decently and with more humility and humanity than secular folks. In fact often quite the opposite is the case.

Lying? Come on, there are a million examples for which it is better to lie than tell the truth and I'm not even referring to those glaring cases when dissimulation is done in order to protect persecuted lives from the tyrannous, who have frequently donned the religious mantel. You are rather childlike, from this point of view. Such black and white assessments are naive. If only not always telling the truth were the great moral dilemma!

 

[frenchfry]

I don't think it is such a good thing. As "religion" becomes less and less popular, I think you will find that morality will go down as well - In fact it already has. The farther we get from God the more immoral our society will become.

It is my belief that those who are religious are, on average, just as immoral as the non-religious. Not a scientifically proven hypothesis but my personal experience has shown this to be true. The "religious" certainly don't have a monopoly on values.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I don't think it is such a good thing. As "religion" becomes less and less popular, I think you will find that morality will go down as well - In fact it already has. The farther we get from God the more immoral our society will become.

As in the past, more wars and more death has been attributed to those in one 'religion' or another..as they kill those who don't agree with them. If these people, who think they have 'god' on their side, see another group, who also sees their god on their side, death and destruction will continue..all in the name of 'religion'.

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

This is pure religious arrogance. Society has never been made more moral because of religion. The history of Western Civilization is one long tale of every cruelty and suppression conducted in the name of religion. Probably the greatest genocide in history, the near extinction of native Americans, north and south, around 150 million between the XVI and XIX centuries, was conducted by Europeans and then Americans with bible in hand.

Well, as I've showed you before, at least with regard to the Spanish in South America, it was Aristotle they appealed to for their main argument. I mean, they built a whole argument also with reference to the Bible and to patristic authorities, but the main idea was that they argued that the native Americans perfectly fitted Aristotle's definition of natural slaves. As I've also said before, this argument was specifically rebuked by the pope in the papal bull Sublimus Dei. So, it might be unnatural for me to say this as a Protestant, but if the Spanish had listened a little less to the great philosopher and a little more to the bishop of Rome, the genocide of the native Americans, at least in South America, would have been prevented.

The popular story about slavery often told nowadays to illustrate how terrible Christianity was and how thankful we should be to the Enlightenment for freeing us from the oppressive bondage of Christendom is simply completely false and fanciful.

You can check it yourself. See for instance the Valladolid debate (1550-1551) and Sublimus Dei which I already mentioned several times.

 

[hrotha]

To say that religion has never made society more moral is really short-sighted, and ironically it sets religion apart from every other belief system or philosophy. It's as silly as saying morals aren't possible without religion.

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

To say that religion has never made society more moral is really short-sighted, and ironically it sets religion apart from every other belief system or philosophy. It's as silly as saying morals aren't possible without religion.

It depends a little on how you define 'morals' and 'religion', I guess.

But I do have difficulty seeing as to how a person who adheres to a modern western naturalistic worldview can have a belief in objective moral values.
Which is of course very distinct form saying that such a person doesn't have morals or isn't moral; I'm just saying I don't see how his belief given such a worldview is warranted.

And your issue isn't so much with religious apologists on this one, but with Nietzsche cum suis; it's not the Christians who come up with this ****, it's the nihilists and the moral relativists, who tend to be atheist themselves.

 

[frenchfry]

To say that religion has never made society more moral is really short-sighted, and ironically it sets religion apart from every other belief system or philosophy.

I would never say that religion has never contributed to a more moral society. At the base, my understanding is that most religions prone values that most of us would consider positive. This does not, however, mean that all those who profess to be religious adhere to these values more than the average person - human nature being what it is. One thing is for sure (in my opinion) though is that those who purport to be religious are, on average, very judgemental of those who don't share their beliefs often without trying to understand if they share the same values.

It's as silly as saying morals aren't possible without religion.

Some who post on this thread insist regularily on this point of view, which isn't as much silly as offensive.

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

It's as silly as saying morals aren't possible without religion.

Some who post on this thread insist regularily on this point of view, which isn't as much silly as offensive.

I think though when people say this they aren't really thinking of areligiousness in general, but rather naturalism specifically, which is what most non religious people in the West have for a worldview nowadays. I can assure you by the way, that this claim isn't just silly and offensive religious propaganda. You'll find boatloads of atheist philosophers who fall into nihilism or moral relativism nowadays......

 

[Jspear]

"Morals" come from social evolution, for which it is better for the community to behave with civility than otherwise. They are not divine mandates, nor "natural," but acquired and it has been an arduous task that certainly is not reduced to the Ten Commandments, however civilizing they may have been at the time. Though it also has to be recalled that an "eye for an eye" was then similarly written in the Book of laws and considered morally correct, thus the evolution of which I have spoken. Such self-justice, in civil society, however, is justly criminal from the perspective of the legal state.

Your concept of sin is a religious fabrication. There is no sin, only unlawful behavior, however this may vary from society to society. For example it is unlawful for women to drive in Saudi Arabia, because women are the property of men and their independence to just go some place as they please, without male permission or company, represents a danger to the patriarcal and theocratic state. Now given that if it were up to you I suspect pornography would be outlawed, the more the religious have a say in determining the law, the more we become like Saudi Arabia, though this is merely repugnant and grotesque. Of course no system of law can account for every offense and every hurt, though this is why we can exercise our own consciences, which vary from individual to individual, and that by no means are the religious intrinsically better equipped to behave more decently and with more humility and humanity than secular folks. In fact often quite the opposite is the case.

Lying? Come on, there are a million examples for which it is better to lie than tell the truth and I'm not even referring to those glaring cases when dissimulation is done in order to protect persecuted lives from the tyrannous, who have frequently donned the religious mantel. You are rather childlike, from this point of view. Such black and white assessments are naive. If only not always telling the truth were the great moral dilemma!

In the Old Testament there was God's moral law and then the civil laws for Israel which kept them distinct as a people. Yes for Israel it was sin for them to break those laws because they were instituted by God. But now Jesus has said "you have heard it said, and eye for eye. But I saw, turn the cheek, ect." He also said in that very same sermon that he had come to fulfill not abolish the law.

In modern societies man's laws are to be obeyed. Scripture says to submit to Kings and authorities, but our highest allegiance is to God. If their laws cause us to break Gods than we must obey God.

There seems to be hints of moral relativism in your posts. The problem with your stance is there is always going to be individuals who think it is morally okay to do things that are not good for society. How do you then deal with them? What if you personally are the recipient of a crime done by someone who thought it was perfectly okay to do? Will you except their moral position or will you try to impose yours on them? Or will you impose the morals of the "society" on them? But what if that society becomes corrupt? This system were society determines morals - it is to fragile because there are so many evil people in society. I can appeal to a higher authority, the scriptures. My morals don't have to change with cultures. If people all of a sudden think it is okay to steal (and our government already does ) than I don't have to go along with that because I don't derive my morals from society.

 

[frenchfry]

I think though when people say this they aren't really thinking of areligiousness in general, but rather naturalism specifically, which is what most non religious people in the West have for a worldview nowadays. I can assure you by the way, that this claim isn't just silly and offensive religious propaganda. You'll find boatloads of atheist philosophers who fall into nihilism or moral relativism nowadays......

I am not talking about philosophers, I am talking about friends and neighbors. It is offensive to imagine that the default setting of those who don't have or believe in a religion is towards to dark side, that somehow areligious and amoral are synonyms.

"which is what most non religious people in the West have for a worldview nowadays."

You are defining an entire population, the "non-religious", by what they are not. I take a different point of view in that I refuse to be defined by what I am not, but rather by what I am. If I have (or don't have) what we would consider good values, it is not because of what I am not. If you get my drift.

The degrading of morals in the world, in my opinion, has little to do with the religious appartenance of anyone. It is an unfortunate evolution of the ensemble of mankind. The fact that some (not all!) of the "religious" blame this situation on the "non-religious" is just another example of the judgemental arrogance of some (not all!) of the religious crowd.

 

[ray j willings]

Evil still abounds though. Biblical morals teaches both men and woman to be appropriate in both manner and conversation, so yes Nicki Minaj offends me. Murder and Rape is down. AWESOME!! But pornography is still HUGE. Families being destroyed by divorce. Simply there is still plenty of sin and pain in the world and taking away God will only makes things digress at a faster rate.

"Biblical morals teaches both men and woman to be appropriate in both manner and conversation" I have to laugh. Have you read the old testament
Does that book set your moral standards?

" a tribe of Israelites misses roll call, so the other Israelites kill them all except for the virgins, which they take for themselves. Still not happy, they hide in vineyards and pounce on dancing women from Shiloh to take them for themselves "

That's not very nice is it. what about this one


"God threatens to punish the Israelites by making them eat their own children "

Perhaps you only follow the new testament

"Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire"

There are loads to choose from but my point is made


I will stick with Nicki Minaj

 

[Jspear]

"Biblical morals teaches both men and woman to be appropriate in both manner and conversation" I have to laugh. Have you read the old testament
Does that book set your moral standards?

" a tribe of Israelites misses roll call, so the other Israelites kill them all except for the virgins, which they take for themselves. Still not happy, they hide in vineyards and pounce on dancing women from Shiloh to take them for themselves "

That's not very nice is it. what about this one


"God threatens to punish the Israelites by making them eat their own children "

Perhaps you only follow the new testament

"Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire"

There are loads to choose from but my point is made


I will stick with Nicki Minaj

I'm sorry could you provide some references...those passages are escaping my memory right now. Thanks! Once you show me where in the bible these things are stated I'm sure I'll be able to go and read them in their proper context.

 

[rhubroma]

Well, as I've showed you before, at least with regard to the Spanish in South America, it was Aristotle they appealed to for their main argument. I mean, they built a whole argument also with reference to the Bible and to patristic authorities, but the main idea was that they argued that the native Americans perfectly fitted Aristotle's definition of natural slaves. As I've also said before, this argument was specifically rebuked by the pope in the papal bull Sublimus Dei. So, it might be unnatural for me to say this as a Protestant, but if the Spanish had listened a little less to the great philosopher and a little more to the bishop of Rome, the genocide of the native Americans, at least in South America, would have been prevented.

The popular story about slavery often told nowadays to illustrate how terrible Christianity was and how thankful we should be to the Enlightenment for freeing us from the oppressive bondage of Christendom is simply completely false and fanciful.

You can check it yourself. See for instance the Valladolid debate (1550-1551) and Sublimus Dei which I already mentioned several times.

Your promiscuity is refreshing. I'd only indicate Dudum siquidem, look it up.

 

[rhubroma]

In the Old Testament there was God's moral law and then the civil laws for Israel which kept them distinct as a people. Yes for Israel it was sin for them to break those laws because they were instituted by God. But now Jesus has said "you have heard it said, and eye for eye. But I saw, turn the cheek, ect." He also said in that very same sermon that he had come to fulfill not abolish the law.

In modern societies man's laws are to be obeyed. Scripture says to submit to Kings and authorities, but our highest allegiance is to God. If their laws cause us to break Gods than we must obey God.

There seems to be hints of moral relativism in your posts. The problem with your stance is there is always going to be individuals who think it is morally okay to do things that are not good for society. How do you then deal with them? What if you personally are the recipient of a crime done by someone who thought it was perfectly okay to do? Will you except their moral position or will you try to impose yours on them? Or will you impose the morals of the "society" on them? But what if that society becomes corrupt? This system were society determines morals - it is to fragile because there are so many evil people in society. I can appeal to a higher authority, the scriptures. My morals don't have to change with cultures. If people all of a sudden think it is okay to steal (and our government already does ) than I don't have to go along with that because I don't derive my morals from society.

The only defense against all the "evil people" is a civil bulwark, though I really don't see that, today, being imposed by the religious: quite to the contrary.

 

[frenchfry]

I found this in the "Driving into cyclists the Emma way" thread.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...3ccd0a-8f7d-11e4-a900-9960214d4cd7_story.html

An isolated incident, but one that serves to demonstrate my theory. You would think a good christian would stop after hitting a cyclist wouldn't you? It appears a christian can exhibit the same human weaknesses as anybody else.

 

[ray j willings]

I'm sorry could you provide some references...those passages are escaping my memory right now. Thanks! Once you show me where in the bible these things are stated I'm sure I'll be able to go and read them in their proper context.

Hi Jspear . Heres a top 20,,,sort of like the top of the pops of the bible

1. God drowns the whole earth. In Genesis 7:21-23, God drowns the entire population of the earth: men, women, children, fetuses, and perhaps unicorns. Only a single family survives. In Matthew 24:37-42, gentle Jesus approves of this genocide and plans to repeat it when he returns. 2. God kills half a million people. In 2 Chronicles 13:15-18, God helps the men of Judah kill 500,000 of their fellow Israelites. 3. God slaughters all Egyptian firstborn. In Exodus 12:29, God the baby-killer slaughters all Egyptian firstborn children and cattle because their king was stubborn. 4. God kills 14,000 people for complaining that God keeps killing them. In Numbers 16:41-49, the Israelites complain that God is killing too many of them. So, God sends a plague that kills 14,000 more of them. 5. Genocide after genocide after genocide. In Joshua 6:20-21, God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing “men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.” In Deuteronomy 2:32-35, God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children. In Deuteronomy 3:3-7, God has the Israelites do the same to the people of Bashan. In Numbers 31:7-18, the Israelites kill all the Midianites except for the virgins, whom they take as spoils of war. In 1 Samuel 15:1-9, God tells the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites – men, women, children, infants, and their cattle – for something the Amalekites’ ancestors had done 400 years earlier. 6. God kills 50,000 people for curiosity. In 1 Samuel 6:19, God kills 50,000 men for peeking into the ark of the covenant. (Newer cosmetic translations count only 70 deaths, but their text notes admit that the best and earliest manuscripts put the number at 50,070.) 7. 3,000 Israelites killed for inventing a god. In Exodus 32, Moses has climbed Mount Sinai to get the Ten Commandments. The Israelites are bored, so they invent a golden calf god. Moses comes back and God commands him: “Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.” About 3,000 people died. 8. The Amorites destroyed by sword and by God’s rocks. In Joshua 10:10-11, God helps the Israelites slaughter the Amorites by sword, then finishes them off with rocks from the sky. 9. God burns two cities to death. In Genesis 19:24, God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah with fire from the sky. Then God kills Lot’s wife for looking back at her burning home. 10. God has 42 children mauled by bears. In 2 Kings 2:23-24, some kids tease the prophet Elisha, and God sends bears to dismember them. (Newer cosmetic translations say the bears “maul” the children, but the original Hebrew, baqa, means “to tear apart.”) 11. A tribe slaughtered and their virgins raped for not showing up at roll call. In Judges 21:1-23, a tribe of Israelites misses roll call, so the other Israelites kill them all except for the virgins, which they take for themselves. Still not happy, they hide in vineyards and pounce on dancing women from Shiloh to take them for themselves. 12. 3,000 crushed to death. In Judges 16:27-30, God gives Samson strength to bring down a building to crush 3,000 members of a rival tribe. 13. A concubine raped and dismembered. In Judges 19:22-29, a mob demands to rape a godly master’s guest. The master offers his daughter and a concubine to them instead. They take the concubine and gang-rape her all night. The master finds her on his doorstep in the morning, cuts her into 12 pieces, and ships the pieces around the country. 14. Child sacrifice. In Judges 11:30-39, Jephthah burns his daughter alive as a sacrificial offering for God’s favor in killing the Ammonites. 15. God helps Samson kill 30 men because he lost a bet. In Judges 14:11-19, Samson loses a bet for 30 sets of clothes. The spirit of God comes upon him and he kills 30 men to steal their clothes and pay off the debt. 16. God demands you kill your wife and children for worshiping other gods. In Deuteronomy 13:6-10, God commands that you must kill your wife, children, brother, and friend if they worship other gods. 17. God incinerates 51 men to make a point. In 2 Kings 1:9-10, Elijah gets God to burn 51 men with fire from heaven to prove he is God. 18. God kills a man for not impregnating his brother’s widow. In Genesis 38:9-10, God kills a man for refusing to impregnate his brother’s widow. 19. God threatens forced cannibalism. In Leviticus 26:27-29 and Jeremiah 19:9, God threatens to punish the Israelites by making them eat their own children. 20. The coming slaughter. According to Revelation 9:7-19, God’s got more evil coming. God will make horse-like locusts with human heads and scorpion tails, who torture people for 5 months. Then some angels will kill a third of the earth’s population.

 

[Echoes]

France is probably (close to being) the most secular country in Europe and indeed they have been for quite a while. But I recently learned - and this quite surprised me - that actually the period of 1850 - 1950 saw the highest rates of church attendance in Europe. So for all its bravado, modernism seems to have done very little in most European countries to bring about secularization. It's only in the last decades of the 20th century under the influence of post-modernistic tendencies that secularization has gotten well underway. [snipped for length]

I enjoy your posts more and more, Maarten.

I hadn't seen your post #1540 before I posted mine but what you said about church attendance seems to corroborate what I'm saying. The secularists had the political power at that time but they still didn't have education. The French were indeed the first to secularise in Europe and waged a war against Catholic schools between 1901 & 1904 and it wasn't until 1923 that the "duties towards God" were scrapped from primary school. In Belgium, the Catholics won the first School War in the 1880's but lost the second one ... between 1950 & 1959.

Also at the turn of the 20th century, Catholics still owned culture in France. For instance, most of the early films (the French invented cinema) were religious like La vie et la passion de Jésus Christ (1903), the very first colour film in history.

I see what you mean on post-modernism, though.

As I've also said before, this argument was specifically rebuked by the pope in the papal bull Sublimus Dei. So, it might be unnatural for me to say this as a Protestant, but if the Spanish had listened a little less to the great philosopher and a little more to the bishop of Rome, the genocide of the native Americans, at least in South America, would have been prevented.

You bet I appreciate it.

So as you've tackled the South, I'll talk about the North. The American Conquest of the West was initiated by Pdt Andrew Jackson who was a freemason, which means a secularist, and who wished to compare America with Rome (so not really a Christian by any means). We should remember that the United States of America is not a Christian country with regards to its institutions. It's been built up by Freemasons. Only the common population are Christians/Protestants in their majority. But I have respect for American people, especially the cowboys of the Heartland. Not the elite on, both coasts.

However in order to assess true Christian actions in North America we've got to look at French Canada. Since Champlain settled in Quebec, the French have just traded with the Indians, - on par with them -, they never colonised, the Indians enjoyed full sovereignty over their lands. They would also protect them against the Brits and the Indians in return protected the Acadians when the Brits started the "Grand Dérangement".

Moreover, the French Jesuits managed to do what the Brits have never been any close to do, which means to negotiate peace between ALL Indian trribes on its territory: that was the Great Peace of Montreal 1701!

All this is something that Christians should be proud of. Again the atheists have to face the historical truth. Only they massacred innocent people, throughout the last 250 years, not the Christians.

I'd also refer to Kevin Costner's doco "500 Nations": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CurmYySbmHQ (at 2'10")

Does Nigel Farage offend you?

Lol, his secularist stances offend me (the veil issue). His stance against the EU pleases me. But basically, he's yours.

Besides, I see that you attack the Christians for what is Jewish but would not dare to attack Jews out of fear of accusations of anti-Semitism. Christians made a New Alliance, dude. OT is over. The usual atheistic crap.

 

[ray j willings]

I enjoy your posts more and more, Maarten.

I hadn't seen your post #1540 before I posted mine but what you said about church attendance seems to corroborate what I'm saying. The secularists had the political power at that time but they still didn't have education. The French were indeed the first to secularise in Europe and waged a war against Catholic schools between 1901 & 1904 and it wasn't until 1923 that the "duties towards God" were scrapped from primary school. In Belgium, the Catholics won the first School War in the 1880's but lost the second one ... between 1950 & 1959.

Also at the turn of the 20th century, Catholics still owned culture in France. For instance, most of the early films (the French invented cinema) were religious like La vie et la passion de Jésus Christ (1903), the very first colour film in history.

I see what you mean on post-modernism, though.



You bet I appreciate it.

So as you've tackled the South, I'll talk about the North. The American Conquest of the West was initiated by Pdt Andrew Jackson who was a freemason, which means a secularist, and who wished to compare America with Rome (so not really a Christian by any means). We should remember that the United States of America is not a Christian country with regards to its institutions. It's been built up by Freemasons. Only the common population are Christians/Protestants in their majority. But I have respect for American people, especially the cowboys of the Heartland. Not the elite on, both coasts.

However in order to assess true Christian actions in North America we've got to look at French Canada. Since Champlain settled in Quebec, the French have just traded with the Indians, - on par with them -, they never colonised, the Indians enjoyed full sovereignty over their lands. They would also protect them against the Brits and the Indians in return protected the Acadians when the Brits started the "Grand Dérangement".

Moreover, the French Jesuits managed to do what the Brits have never been any close to do, which means to negotiate peace between ALL Indian trribes on its territory: that was the Great Peace of Montreal 1701!

All this is something that Christians should be proud of. Again the atheists have to face the historical truth. Only they massacred innocent people, throughout the last 250 years, not the Christians.

I'd also refer to Kevin Costner's doco "500 Nations": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CurmYySbmHQ (at 2'10")



Lol, his secularist stances offend me (the veil issue). His stance against the EU pleases me. But basically, he's yours.

Besides, I see that you attack the Christians for what is Jewish but would not dare to attack Jews out of fear of accusations of anti-Semitism. Christians made a New Alliance, dude. OT is over. The usual atheistic crap.

First off I don't care for Farage, I can't stand him or his politics. I used him as an example.

I don't care much for any religion, I was responding to the posts made.
Feel free to believe what ever you want but when belief supresses facts then that is dangerous. If you want to supply some quotes from other religions that I can respond to I would be happy if it makes you happy.
Don't forget . Not all Jewish people are religious.



“In heaven, all the interesting people are missing.” Friedrich Nietzsche

 

[Jspear]

Hi Jspear . Heres a top 20,,,sort of like the top of the pops of the bible

1. God drowns the whole earth. In Genesis 7:21-23, God drowns the entire population of the earth: men, women, children, fetuses, and perhaps unicorns. Only a single family survives. In Matthew 24:37-42, gentle Jesus approves of this genocide and plans to repeat it when he returns. 2. God kills half a million people. In 2 Chronicles 13:15-18, God helps the men of Judah kill 500,000 of their fellow Israelites. 3. God slaughters all Egyptian firstborn. In Exodus 12:29, God the baby-killer slaughters all Egyptian firstborn children and cattle because their king was stubborn. 4. God kills 14,000 people for complaining that God keeps killing them. In Numbers 16:41-49, the Israelites complain that God is killing too many of them. So, God sends a plague that kills 14,000 more of them. 5. Genocide after genocide after genocide. In Joshua 6:20-21, God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing “men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.” In Deuteronomy 2:32-35, God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children. In Deuteronomy 3:3-7, God has the Israelites do the same to the people of Bashan. In Numbers 31:7-18, the Israelites kill all the Midianites except for the virgins, whom they take as spoils of war. In 1 Samuel 15:1-9, God tells the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites – men, women, children, infants, and their cattle – for something the Amalekites’ ancestors had done 400 years earlier. 6. God kills 50,000 people for curiosity. In 1 Samuel 6:19, God kills 50,000 men for peeking into the ark of the covenant. (Newer cosmetic translations count only 70 deaths, but their text notes admit that the best and earliest manuscripts put the number at 50,070.) 7. 3,000 Israelites killed for inventing a god. In Exodus 32, Moses has climbed Mount Sinai to get the Ten Commandments. The Israelites are bored, so they invent a golden calf god. Moses comes back and God commands him: “Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.” About 3,000 people died. 8. The Amorites destroyed by sword and by God’s rocks. In Joshua 10:10-11, God helps the Israelites slaughter the Amorites by sword, then finishes them off with rocks from the sky. 9. God burns two cities to death. In Genesis 19:24, God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah with fire from the sky. Then God kills Lot’s wife for looking back at her burning home. 10. God has 42 children mauled by bears. In 2 Kings 2:23-24, some kids tease the prophet Elisha, and God sends bears to dismember them. (Newer cosmetic translations say the bears “maul” the children, but the original Hebrew, baqa, means “to tear apart.”) 11. A tribe slaughtered and their virgins raped for not showing up at roll call. In Judges 21:1-23, a tribe of Israelites misses roll call, so the other Israelites kill them all except for the virgins, which they take for themselves. Still not happy, they hide in vineyards and pounce on dancing women from Shiloh to take them for themselves. 12. 3,000 crushed to death. In Judges 16:27-30, God gives Samson strength to bring down a building to crush 3,000 members of a rival tribe. 13. A concubine raped and dismembered. In Judges 19:22-29, a mob demands to rape a godly master’s guest. The master offers his daughter and a concubine to them instead. They take the concubine and gang-rape her all night. The master finds her on his doorstep in the morning, cuts her into 12 pieces, and ships the pieces around the country. 14. Child sacrifice. In Judges 11:30-39, Jephthah burns his daughter alive as a sacrificial offering for God’s favor in killing the Ammonites. 15. God helps Samson kill 30 men because he lost a bet. In Judges 14:11-19, Samson loses a bet for 30 sets of clothes. The spirit of God comes upon him and he kills 30 men to steal their clothes and pay off the debt. 16. God demands you kill your wife and children for worshiping other gods. In Deuteronomy 13:6-10, God commands that you must kill your wife, children, brother, and friend if they worship other gods. 17. God incinerates 51 men to make a point. In 2 Kings 1:9-10, Elijah gets God to burn 51 men with fire from heaven to prove he is God. 18. God kills a man for not impregnating his brother’s widow. In Genesis 38:9-10, God kills a man for refusing to impregnate his brother’s widow. 19. God threatens forced cannibalism. In Leviticus 26:27-29 and Jeremiah 19:9, God threatens to punish the Israelites by making them eat their own children. 20. The coming slaughter. According to Revelation 9:7-19, God’s got more evil coming. God will make horse-like locusts with human heads and scorpion tails, who torture people for 5 months. Then some angels will kill a third of the earth’s population.

Seems to me like you did none of your own research as far as actually searching the scriptures yourself...this looks like it was copied and pasted out of the "skeptics annotated bible." If this was your source (or one similar to it) I would simply point out that their great dislike for the Bible makes it so their interpretations are very dishonest at best. I'd recommend you look at all of these verses in their context keeping in mind the story that the Bible tells as a whole. When engaging in these sort of discussions it is more constructive when we deal honestly with the text.

In Genesis we see the creation of the world. We see man rebelling against God. We see that man was corrupt. God takes evil seriously. Even in our society we take crime seriously...we punish evil doers. If man who is fallen can administrate justice think of how much more God, who is perfect, will require that justice be served. But, in addition to God being just, He is also merciful and patient. In 2 Peter 2 we learn that Noah was a preacher of righteousness. The people had hundreds of years to repent, they did not, they were judged. They were responsible for what came upon them.

Matthew 24 is a prophetic passage. It speaks of the end times. Yes God will come back and judge the world, but He also says that if you repent and live according to His will that you will be saved. So basically only those who reject the FREE gift of salvation that He is offering will be judged. Those who are judged will only be able to blame themselves. It is a choice that they are making.

You've stated several things that are only half true - you've added your own dishonest commentary...things like "God killed them out of curiosity." Your numbers are correct as far as who died, but your interpretation as to why it happened is incorrect. You should go read every single chapter from each point you mentioned. God always first showed mercy, He always gave them many chances. It was only after much mercy and patience that he would judge them. The people of Israel were described as a "stiff necked people." They were always resisting God.

I think your biggest issue (based on the points you raised) is God's justice system. It can be broken down very simply. God had laws - rules for His people to follow. When they obeyed the Lord they had blessings in their lives, when they disobeyed He would send them prophets and other men of God to warn them, to steer them back to God. Sometimes they listened - other times they didn't listen, he would then judge them.

In the New Testament God sent His Son Jesus. The judgement and wrath of God was laid on the Son, He bore it for us. Now if we repent of our sins and trust in the righteousness of Jesus Christ then we will be saved.

You conveniently missed the HUNDREDS of verses that speak of Gods mercy and love and kindness and patience. You are right - one day God will judge the world, but He has clearly shown a way for us to escape that. That choice is one that individuals must make.

 

[Echoes]

First off I don't care for Farage, I can't stand him or his politics. I used him as an example.

An example of a secularist (perhaps even atheist) who has great contempt for religion. His stance on the "Islamic" veil illustrates that fact quite clearly, since the veil is not Islamic but common to every Abrahamic religion.

So that's an excellent example, indeed.

when belief supresses facts then that is dangerous.

Yes, that's what my post is all about. Your belief suppresses facts.

Don't forget . Not all Jewish people are religious.

It's exactly the point. Most of the Jews who are boring us today, with their support to Israel (an atheistic creation), their Franckism, Rothschild, etc are "emancipated" Jews (not generalising, though). Many religious israelites are people I can live in peace with.

“In heaven, all the interesting people are missing.” Friedrich Nietzsche

Coming from an elitist, hedonist risticrat, pro-EU "avant la lettre" and inspiration to all neocons. I guess it could be a blessing if the people in heaven are not interesting to Big Moustache.

 

[ray j willings]

Seems to me like you did none of your own research as far as actually searching the scriptures yourself...this looks like it was copied and pasted out of the "skeptics annotated bible." If this was your source (or one similar to it) I would simply point out that their great dislike for the Bible makes it so their interpretations are very dishonest at best. I'd recommend you look at all of these verses in their context keeping in mind the story that the Bible tells as a whole. When engaging in these sort of discussions it is more constructive when we deal honestly with the text.

In Genesis we see the creation of the world. We see man rebelling against God. We see that man was corrupt. God takes evil seriously. Even in our society we take crime seriously...we punish evil doers. If man who is fallen can administrate justice think of how much more God, who is perfect, will require that justice be served. But, in addition to God being just, He is also merciful and patient. In 2 Peter 2 we learn that Noah was a preacher of righteousness. The people had hundreds of years to repent, they did not, they were judged. They were responsible for what came upon them.

Matthew 24 is a prophetic passage. It speaks of the end times. Yes God will come back and judge the world, but He also says that if you repent and live according to His will that you will be saved. So basically only those who reject the FREE gift of salvation that He is offering will be judged. Those who are judged will only be able to blame themselves. It is a choice that they are making.

You've stated several things that are only half true - you've added your own dishonest commentary...things like "God killed them out of curiosity." Your numbers are correct as far as who died, but your interpretation as to why it happened is incorrect. You should go read every single chapter from each point you mentioned. God always first showed mercy, He always gave them many chances. It was only after much mercy and patience that he would judge them. The people of Israel were described as a "stiff necked people." They were always resisting God.

I think your biggest issue (based on the points you raised) is God's justice system. It can be broken down very simply. God had laws - rules for His people to follow. When they obeyed the Lord they had blessings in their lives, when they disobeyed He would send them prophets and other men of God to warn them, to steer them back to God. Sometimes they listened - other times they didn't listen, he would then judge them.

In the New Testament God sent His Son Jesus. The judgement and wrath of God was laid on the Son, He bore it for us. Now if we repent of our sins and trust in the righteousness of Jesus Christ then we will be saved.

You conveniently missed the HUNDREDS of verses that speak of Gods mercy and love and kindness and patience. You are right - one day God will judge the world, but He has clearly shown a way for us to escape that. That choice is one that individuals must make.

There is no context to justify those words.
You can go on the defensive and quote Blah blah blah but it does not wash.
You have to deal with defending that nonsense not me.

God will not judge the world because he does not exist.

 

[ray j willings]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ray j willings View Post
First off I don't care for Farage, I can't stand him or his politics. I used him as an example.

An example of a secularist (perhaps even atheist) who has great contempt for religion. His stance on the "Islamic" veil illustrates that fact quite clearly, since the veil is not Islamic but common to every Abrahamic religion.

So that's an excellent example, indeed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ray j willings View Post
when belief supresses facts then that is dangerous.

Yes, that's what my post is all about. Your belief suppresses facts.

I do not let fairy tales influence my views or incite hatred and have a underlying need for dominance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ray j willings View Post
Don't forget . Not all Jewish people are religious.

It's exactly the point. Most of the Jews who are boring us today, with their support to Israel (an atheistic creation), their Franckism, Rothschild, etc are "emancipated" Jews (not generalising, though). Many religious israelites are people I can live in peace with.

We can all live in peace if we have a peaceful ideology. But all religion's feel that their truth is superior thus you have instant conflict that will never cease until we have a more secular world.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ray j willings View Post
“In heaven, all the interesting people are missing.” Friedrich Nietzsche

Coming from an elitist, hedonist risticrat, pro-EU "avant la lettre" and inspiration to all neocons. I guess it could be a blessing if the people in heaven are not interesting to Big Moustache.

So your not a fan then

 

[Jspear]

There is no context to justify those words.
You can go on the defensive and quote Blah blah blah but it does not wash.
You have to deal with defending that nonsense not me.

God will not judge the world because he does not exist.

How have you come to this conclusion?