Here you might want to look up the Joachimist apochalyptic viewpoint and its views on the "innocent society" as predicted by the sixth aetas, as requisite for the Second Coming and great End, during the initial European discovery of New World America. Evidently Columbus was guided by such "typology," "eschatology," "millennium," and "prophetic" arcana. Evangelical regeneration has had a clockwork periodicity in Christian history. Pauline theology, as we have seen in our previous discussion, programs self-overcoming, or movement beyond the individual and communal here-and-now, into the course of history's unfolding. Starting with the third century, reformation becomes a concomitant of renovation and the degree of zeal with which renovation is undertaken differentiates often the orthodox from the heretical. Renewal's enthusiasm may well be the most common element that binds heterodox impulses with the orthodox mainstream. It is the commonality that would bring, for example, Cardinal Ximénez de Cisneros, Spain's patron of the late fifteenth-, early sixteenth-century Catholic Reformation, face-to-face with such radical eschatologists as Charles de Bovalles. The cardinal and royal confessor—and zealous, some might say fanatical, crusader of Granada—of course, was also the avid promoter at court of Christopher Columbus, that other apocalyptic enthusiast who obsessively prophesied more than one kind of New World and Golden Age via the cosmogonic imagism of Pierre d'Ailly, the prophetic mirror of Joachim of Fiore, and the spiritual order this Calabrian's legacy spawned throughout the Middle Ages. The renovatio mundi about which Marselio Ficino wrote to his friend Paul of Middelburg in 1492 proclaiming the arrival of the Age of Gold has something inescapably suggestive in its timing for students of the American New World, though those resonances may well have been outside Ficino's Platonist humanism at the threshold of the Renaissance. See Pinturicchio's Resurrection fresco with Pope Borgia in it at the Vatican. Natives being conducted to the true religion, etc., at least that is what the recent restoration has brought to light.Echoes said:You DO believe in fairy tales. I believe facts, man.
Look I don't like bullies like you. You evidently don't have enough culture to be able to discuss with me. You don't have the historical knowledge either. The worst thing is that you are not even reading any of my posts otherwise you'd know that ONLY the secularists/atheists think that their truth is superior, which means you. That is what history teaches us.
Wars of the Vendée: ATHEISTS
Napoleonic Wars: ATHEISTS
Conquest of the West/Amerindian Genocide: SECULARISTS
Scramble for Africa/Colonisation: SECULARISTS
Bolshevik Revolution: ATHEISTS
Cristeros War: ATHEISTS
Second World War: SECULARISTS
Maoist Revolution : ATHEISTS
Cambodgian Genocide: ATHEISTS
Is that enough or should I put some more of them in the mix?
+1 a thousand times...frenchfry said:Personally I find that statements starting with "they all" aren't very productive when discussing religion. This applys to all sides of the discussion.
9:5: And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambushEchoes said:And then, finally, in the Koran, the Prophet Muhammad - Peace be upon him - never ordered any killing of infidels unless in case of self-defence/when attacked upon. NEVER EVER EVER! Again a massive atheistic lie. Not only is this order inexistant, but the opposite order is true. He commanded to never kill them unless in self-defence. Read the Koran before spreading such crap lies.
Fine.Merckx index said:I don't disagree with Foxxy ...
Because I picked suras randomly. May some are not clear cut to see how bad this book of evil is. Please remember I just wanted to give an over-view, not only about barbarism.Merckx index said:... that there are many passages in the Koran that are evidence of barbarism, I'm just not sure how he came up with many that are on his list.
OK I give, clearly you are right and the rest of the world is wrong. Have fun out there, little storm trooper.FoxxyBrown1111 said:Some more infos to those who personally attacked me (the messenger only):
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/israel-gaza-crisis-german-protesters-chant-gas-jews-anti-israel-rallies-1457714
"Berlin authorities have ordered pro-Gaza demonstrators to stop chanting anti-semitic messages, after protesters were reportedly heard shouting 'Gas the Jews'."
"Imam calling for the obliteration of Jews, telling his followers to "kill them to the very last one""
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Have a nice day, but next time attack those who are really xenophobic and demagogic. Thanks in advance.
P.S.: Still waiting for your apologies...
You win the thread. Close it, let's go home.ray j willings said:Statistics play an important role in genetics. For instance, statistics prove that numbers of offspring is an inherited trait. If your parent didn't have any kids, odds are you won't either
Since when is that a legitimate argument?Hugh Januss said:OK I give, clearly you are right and the rest of the world is wrong. Have fun out there, little storm trooper.
People have been killing each other for thousands of years for all sorts of things, religious or not. And they've used all sorts of excuses for their warmongering, religions not being excepted. If anything, it is a testimony to the depravity of human nature, not to religion being evil.FoxxyBrown1111 said:All right. I give up. Stay ignorant, and personally insult messengers instead.
My point is crystal clear: Religions are bad. A lot of killing in the name of them over thousands of years.
Wait, did I say that anywhere? I know that there are plenty of dangerous tendencies in some Islamic movements. I know personally Muslims who converted to Christianity while studying in Europe and are afraid to go back because the law of their country would have them receive capital punishment. Even in the West I know Muslims who have been kicked out of the family or even threatened by their family when they converted to Christianity. I'm not naive, I'm well aware that there are plenty of dangers in this area.FoxxyBrown1111 said:Good for you coming to the conclusion that the islam is a peaceful religion after reading two suras and twiswting it to your liking.![]()
The logical and obvious conclusion, therefore, is that ALL atheists are cowards. I just gotta go and get me some religion to avoid this!Echoes said:...
An atheist once told me: "I'd rather be a coward than a dead man." Food for thought!
...
Maybe, but Hitchens believed it 100%, and so do I.The Hitch said:Not in a million years.
You claim that half the forum are worse than rapists and deserve to burn in hell for the next 60 billion zillion years, because they were born into families that don't follow whatever wackjob baptist church it is you believe possesses the sole truth of the whole universe.
You said little children deserve to get hurt and die becuase they are "born in sin".
Saying religion poisons everything is worse than that? lol.
PS the title for the book was chosen by the publisher.
Hitchens was not one who could be pigeonholed into one ideology or another. I completely disagreed with his stance on Iraq, but that's not what we're talking about here. Using it as an attempt to discredit his work on religion is weak.Echoes said:"To be involved in this (Iraq War), frankly, just makes me happy."
Do you, folks, even beware of whom you are quoting? It's appalling.![]()
I'm sorry if that statement offends you but the facts support it. Yes, religion has done some good things in terms of helping the poor and such, but the bad far outweighs the good. In fact, I would argue that 3rd world countries would be infinitely better off had they never heard of religion.Jspear said:You seem to think that believers are just "lucky" that they are going to heaven. It's a choice that individuals have to make - what I mean is that those who don't go to heaven have only themselves to blame.
Religion poisons everything? You do realize that is just as "offensive" as anything I have said. Christianity has done SO much when it comes to helping the poor, third world countries, relief after natural disasters....I'm not personally offended...I'm quite used to being the "minority" when it comes to these discussions...just thought I'd point out that the strong statements run both ways.
It does discredit him totally. I'd never use a warmongerer as intellectual reference whatever he otherwise says. At least, some here openly admitted that they advocated for this dirty war...Tom T. said:Hitchens was not one who could be pigeonholed into one ideology or another. I completely disagreed with his stance on Iraq, but that's not what we're talking about here. Using it as an attempt to discredit his work on religion is weak.
Except that the existence of God is not a fact based debate.The Hitch said:Since when is that a legitimate argument?
Why not extend it to god itself? Most of the world believes in god therefore he must be real too. Because if the rest of the world believes something then the minority who doesn't must automatically be wrong.
Right?
Evils have been done in the name of religion. I would never defend what they did. I would call them out on it. If they followed the bible at all they would never have done what they did. 3rd world countries have benefited from Christianity specifically and are better off with it (as is any society.) The bad you see that "outweighs" the good is because they weren't/aren't following what scripture tells us to do. The problem isn't religion but people who misinterpret and abuse.Tom T. said:I'm sorry if that statement offends you but the facts support it. Yes, religion has done some good things in terms of helping the poor and such, but the bad far outweighs the good. In fact, I would argue that 3rd world countries would be infinitely better off had they never heard of religion.
What does the fact that Vanity Fair is owned by a "Jewish business magnate" have to do with anything? Have a problem with Jews?Echoes said:It does discredit him totally. I'd never use a warmongerer as intellectual reference whatever he otherwise says. At least, some here openly admitted that they advocated for this dirty war...
Besides, he worked for Vanity Fair. Doesn't discredit him? One of the crappest tabloids one can think of, owned by one of the biggest Jewish business magnates in America: Si Newhouse. Oh the book that you seem to be love was published by the Lagardère Group. The publisher decided over the title, apparently. Whocan trust an author writing for Lagardère?
Organized Religion is really nothing more than a tool for those in power to keep the peasants under control and to send them off to fight wars for more power and/or territory. The Crusades, 100 virgins, "no atheists in foxholes" and on and on. Society would certainly be the better for it if no organized religion existed.Jspear said:Evils have been done in the name of religion. I would never defend what they did. I would call them out on it. If they followed the bible at all they would never have done what they did. 3rd world countries have benefited from Christianity specifically and are better off with it (as is any society.) The bad you see that "outweighs" the good is because they weren't/aren't following what scripture tells us to do. The problem isn't religion but people who misinterpret and abuse.
We won't agree on anything, obviously, but I have a couple questions for you. Do you think it's possible to lead a good, decent and moral life without believing in god and practicing a religion? Do you think that not following scripture automatically leads to doing bad things?Jspear said:Evils have been done in the name of religion. I would never defend what they did. I would call them out on it. If they followed the bible at all they would never have done what they did. 3rd world countries have benefited from Christianity specifically and are better off with it (as is any society.) The bad you see that "outweighs" the good is because they weren't/aren't following what scripture tells us to do. The problem isn't religion but people who misinterpret and abuse.
Yes I think people can live good, decent, and moral lives without being a christian. I don't believe myself to be morally better than anyone on this form...at least I'm hoping there aren't any murders around.Tom T. said:We won't agree on anything, obviously, but I have a couple questions for you. Do you think it's possible to lead a good, decent and moral life without believing in god and practicing a religion? Do you think that not following scripture automatically leads to doing bad things?