Research on Belief in God

[rhubroma]

Have you ever studied Pythagoras at all rhub.? Mystery schools (Eleusinian for ex.)? I'm afraid what you're doing in your strict adherence to "the facts" (which change, and are historically conflicted) is reducing a multidimensional story down to too fine a point and missing the point entirely. Rather like saying a dodecahedron is simply a pentagon.

We're talking about stories that are filled with symbolism, analogy and metaphor with what we today would call fractally embedded information that pertains to the human experience of consciousness.

Do you think that every polymath, every "genius" throughout history up to and including Newton (and beyond) was reading and interpreting these myths factually?

Today we still don't truly understand consciousness, light, gravity, magnetism, electro magnetism, the sun etc. We have some facts but that "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts" remains true. Life is a mystery, a miracle beyond our discernment.

To me the story of Christ on the cross is the story of the sun on it's annual journey. The benevolent sun that gives of itself freely, without distinction so that life is constantly renewed. To me the story is about our consciousness being trapped on the cross of matter, in earth, on earth. It's about the potential to see beyond our individuated self, to transform our perspective, our way of being from petty distinctions and opinions to one of empathy, compassion and love. It's about the potential to know peace within oneself, for the eternal conflict within man to find balance, harmony within oneself. For heart and mind to be as one. To grow beyond the individuated ego in awareness.

It doesn't really matter to me if there was a historic Christ or not. It's about the message not the messenger. That message is a step up from eye for an eye tribalism. Maybe someday we'll realize the message but it's a world of individuals in love with distinctions. It's interesting to attempt to see beyond that though.

I could go on but I'm hung-over.

Oh, please, I am well aware of the symbolic meanings behind the imagery of Christ-Sol Invictus, Christ-Philosopher-Teacher, Christ-Cosmic Emperor, as well as Mithras-Sol and that of the Neopathogoreans, the Dionysian elysian rights and the whole private mystery-savior religion mania that gripped the ancients at the time Paul began his religion.

My point was other, in looking at this phenomenon not in light of the iconographic elements, focused as they were upon the sun and other astronomical and calendar symbolism. Rather it was the result of conclusions about how a religion is historically constructed: in this sense an inquiry on the origins of Christianity.

 

[rhubroma]

First off, lol.
We're going to slide into slippery semantics and the limitations of language relatively quickly. Reason? Intuitive reason or discursive reason? I know the answer (I think). Up thread The Hitch dissed imagination (essentially) while on other forums I've read science geeks refer to "common intuition". hahaha. Don't these folks understand that intuition forms imagination that is translated by discursive reason into "reality". It's all really hilarious to me.

Discursive reason is limited, thus empirical measure. To measure requires 2 points, it's useful in the world of effects, don't get me wrong; and self limiting. This isn't a new understanding, it's in every ancient sacred text and has been articulated as best as is possible (as language is a product of dualistic reason) in Advaita Vedanta (subject-object non dualism) and apparently the philosophy of Spinoza too. At least you recognize this: "I realize that I'm immersed in a mystery that reason isn't capable of penetrating deep down to the bottom". This recognition is where faith begins (for me). I'm not certain what faith means; hope; purpose; intention? Something (which isn't a thing but rather no thing) larger is at work than I can comprehend and I have to have *faith* there's a purpose, but I don't know. Call it uncertainty if you wish, or doubt. I don't really think the word matters. It's the quest that's important.
I don't know - is the sum of my understanding but it beats believing in my personality which sucks (but doesn't blow).

What you call faith, I call sentiment. Sentiment is the prime mover of that which has commonly been called the soul; that which animates consciousness and, within the realm of art, literature, music, cuisine, etc. transcends physical reality and has over the centuries and millennia of homo sapiens-sapiens given form to civilization and kultur in its various declinations. If there is to be provided evidence of a principium universitatis, in the Thomist sense, then I can find no other place then here, however perplexing.

 

[horsinabout]

It's all pretty simple . You either believe in the existence of god or you don't.

It cannot be evidence based because there is NO evidence.
I don't believe and it makes absolutely no difference to my capacity to be good or indeed bad.
And history and the present confirms belief in god makes no difference whatsoever to believers capacity for good or bad either.

Conclusion . Why bother? Essentially belief in god is for people who want to transfer/ project responsible.
Thankfully sanity prevails and " god made me do it " is no defence for a murderer but just might get the defendant put in the nut house.

The post is a bit old now, but on this one I am going to align myself with my countryman. Good post Darryl.

Add caveat....religious belief can often be solipsistic and egomaniacal at it's core. Like when people think they know what god is saying or wants of us etc.. thereby providing evidence of the MAN made nature of god.

I also don't like it when the religious say that animals have no souls, then we don't either in that case!

That said, I am for freedom of religious belief, better the devil you know. for example, we all know what the communist did in getting rid of religion. They replaced it with state religion, twice as bad!

Three cheers for/or not?........hail cycling as the new religion, enjoy!

 

[ebandit]

today

of course I'm still a bone idle w*nker

today out scrumping apples my thoughts turned to thinking about the meaning of life

i ran back and forth pockets full of stolen apples ' there is no god.....if
you are up there smite me down'

I still made it home............that shows just how benevolent god is

Mark L

 

[RetroActive]

Oh, please, I am well aware of the symbolic meanings behind the imagery of Christ-Sol Invictus, Christ-Philosopher-Teacher, Christ-Cosmic Emperor, as well as Mithras-Sol and that of the Neopathogoreans, the Dionysian elysian rights and the whole private mystery-savior religion mania that gripped the ancients at the time Paul began his religion.

My point was other, in looking at this phenomenon not in light of the iconographic elements, focused as they were upon the sun and other astronomical and calendar symbolism. Rather it was the result of conclusions about how a religion is historically constructed: in this sense an inquiry on the origins of Christianity.

Your an intriguing fellow. I really don't understand how you can draw such clear distinctions with such certainty about much of what you posted. In particular: "the historical Hebrew Jesus of Nazareth (Joshua ben Josef)...which Jesus and his initial disciples all belong and never thought of leaving and brought to the gentile peoples". I'm curious about the source of this info.? Sincere question.

"In fact incipient Christianity is Greek, not Hebrew, in both its etymological and cultural parameters." What are the etymological and cultural parameters of Greek and Hebrew? I'm thinking about this from a syncretic perspective. The more I read the less clear the distinctions become and yet it's often the enforcement of these distinctions that is so tragic and yet seemingly unnecessary. I'm not interested in religion per se but the syncretism within religions I do find interesting.

I'm curious how you would propose we reconcile faith and reason? I'm having trouble understanding you actually. A man that's obviously dedicated his life to studying something that he appears to want to reject? How do we move forward while negating that which is the essence of our culture? What do we replace man's obvious deep need for common unity (even if in idea only) with? What light are you propossing we turn on. I don't think reason alone will cut it. It can't explain the fullness of the human experience, it's a great tool. Philosophical materialism has become obese and is ready for a heart attack too.The best moments I've ever experienced transcended reason. I'm really struggling to grasp where you're at.

 

[Echoes]

the very same believing Christian who was a key figure of the "horrors of French revolution" (your words, I hope you recognize them)? The very same guy of the "Terror"? The very same guy who officially established the religion of the "Supreme Being"?

..and now you leave me alone, okay. I said I did not want to talk with you anymore. You are a despicable ignorant person.

Likewise, all dopers are outspoken atheists - Armstrong, Fignon, Ricco - not a single Christian among them!

..and CN is an atheist immoral (pleonasm) website posting an article about Pharmstrong everyday, which does not interest anybody.

What you call faith, I call sentiment. Sentiment is the prime mover of that which has commonly been called the soul]

What I'm saying from the very beginning. The atheist reduced the collectivity/the group to a mere pack of atomized, egotist individual and now everything is centered around the individual (politics, art, literature etc.), hence sentimentality. A sentiment is of necessity individual.

The group no longer exists. Primary feelings/sentiments are of course very dangerous. Media play on it. If we are moved, if we feel we no longer think.. Media show children being massacred in Syria, we are shocked, they accuse Assad, so we have to go to war ...

Whereas during the Middle Ages slavery was merely disguised within feudal serfdom. Perhaps only worse, because serfs became tied to the land on a hereditary basis, without the possibility of manumission.

Okay so there was manumission in the Middle Age, but serfdom is worse than slavery ???

Abolition of slavery does not occur in one day. It was a long process but Christianism was the driving force behind it. In 1315 Louis X signed an "Édit" in which he recognized that every French were free (Franc meaning 'free'). After that there were fewer and fewer serves, until the 18th century. The monarchy abolished serfdom !

 

[horsinabout]

of course I'm still a bone idle w*nker

today out scrumping apples my thoughts turned to thinking about the meaning of life

i ran back and forth pockets full of stolen apples ' there is no god.....if
you are up there smite me down'

I still made it home............that shows just how benevolent god is

Mark L

Well as I live and breath.............................may the lord god give me a spank on the booty....................It's ebandit!

God bless........ glad he spared your journey home x

 

[RetroActive]

What you call faith, I call sentiment. Sentiment is the prime mover of that which has commonly been called the soul; that which animates consciousness and, within the realm of art, literature, music, cuisine, etc. transcends physical reality and has over the centuries and millennia of homo sapiens-sapiens given form to civilization and kultur in its various declinations. If there is to be provided evidence of a principium universitatis, in the Thomist sense, then I can find no other place then here, however perplexing.

Ok, call it sentiment then. We all want to feel connected, a sense of belonging, to be loved and to love. There's plenty of alienation already. What I wouldn't do for a moments peace within myself amidst this madness.

 

[Eshnar]

..and now you leave me alone, okay. I said I did not want to talk with you anymore. You are a despicable ignorant person.

You know, insults are forbidden here as in all the rest of the forum of this atheist immoral site...

 

[ebandit]

bless ya all

Well as I live and breath.............................may the lord god give me a spank on the booty....................It's ebandit!

God bless........ glad he spared your journey home x

bless ya horsin..............bless everyone

Mark L x

 

[rhubroma]

Ok, call it sentiment then. We all want to feel connected, a sense of belonging, to be loved and to love. There's plenty of alienation already. What I wouldn't do for a moments peace within myself amidst this madness.

That was not my intention as I don't find the need to feel connected for its own sake, which is rather sentimentality. If anything, there is at least some solace within the landscape of culture, however illusory and ultimately meaningless.

 

[rhubroma]

Your an intriguing fellow. I really don't understand how you can draw such clear distinctions with such certainty about much of what you posted. In particular: "the historical Hebrew Jesus of Nazareth (Joshua ben Josef)...which Jesus and his initial disciples all belong and never thought of leaving and brought to the gentile peoples". I'm curious about the source of this info.? Sincere question.

"In fact incipient Christianity is Greek, not Hebrew, in both its etymological and cultural parameters." What are the etymological and cultural parameters of Greek and Hebrew? I'm thinking about this from a syncretic perspective. The more I read the less clear the distinctions become and yet it's often the enforcement of these distinctions that is so tragic and yet seemingly unnecessary. I'm not interested in religion per se but the syncretism within religions I do find interesting.

I'm curious how you would propose we reconcile faith and reason? I'm having trouble understanding you actually. A man that's obviously dedicated his life to studying something that he appears to want to reject? How do we move forward while negating that which is the essence of our culture? What do we replace man's obvious deep need for common unity (even if in idea only) with? What light are you propossing we turn on. I don't think reason alone will cut it. It can't explain the fullness of the human experience, it's a great tool. Philosophical materialism has become obese and is ready for a heart attack too.The best moments I've ever experienced transcended reason. I'm really struggling to grasp where you're at.

Study the history of the classical world. Study the history of early Christianity. The historical Jesus was Hebrew, his followers likewise. Their movement remained provincial, what else is there to say. The obvious patriotic role that religiosity played during the Roman Empire, which was part of the “national spirit,” meant that at some point Christianity needed to belong to that civilization. Constantine offered the occasion. Syncretism was then a daily fact of life, in a world dominated by polytheism, for which we might even speak of total religious chaos by the third century, if not before. Yet Christianity offered the state with a salvation religion to which all citizens could belong, irrespective of sex or social status.

 

[rhubroma]

..and now you leave me alone, okay. I said I did not want to talk with you anymore. You are a despicable ignorant person.




..and CN is an atheist immoral (pleonasm) website posting an article about Pharmstrong everyday, which does not interest anybody.



What I'm saying from the very beginning. The atheist reduced the collectivity/the group to a mere pack of atomized, egotist individual and now everything is centered around the individual (politics, art, literature etc.), hence sentimentality. A sentiment is of necessity individual.

The group no longer exists. Primary feelings/sentiments are of course very dangerous. Media play on it. If we are moved, if we feel we no longer think.. Media show children being massacred in Syria, we are shocked, they accuse Assad, so we have to go to war ...



Okay so there was manumission in the Middle Age, but serfdom is worse than slavery ???

Abolition of slavery does not occur in one day. It was a long process but Christianism was the driving force behind it. In 1315 Louis X signed an "Édit" in which he recognized that every French were free (Franc meaning 'free'). After that there were fewer and fewer serves, until the 18th century. The monarchy abolished serfdom !

Listen, I chalk this all up to human prepotency and the fact that left in a natural state we are all basically egoists.

 

[Descender]

Look at that, my old thread has been bumped and I've been missing the party!

Nope, you just need one person, and another person between them and something they want.

The reality of the world is that the true god isn't the object of a religion. But you believe what you want.

I chuckled. Turns out god is a reality. Oh well, you got me, there goes my atheism!

No it doesn't, it's just the excuse used.

So when religion is used to do something good, it's because of religion.

When it's used to do something bad, it's just the excuse used.

Having it both ways, I see.

Okay, one more post just because you need to know the world doesn't work like you think it does.

Have you ever spent time around people who torture animals to death? Because I have, and I can assure you that religion or lack-thereof is not the reason they do it.

Jesus Christ, you really are persistent with that textbook fallacy of yours aren't you.

Then they are masochists !

Of all the mind-boggling abhorrent stuff this biggest of all religious nutcases spouts constantly, this is probably the most telling bit.

He simply cannot possibly understand somebody could do good without having that father figure in the sky watching with the belt ready.

I'd rather do good for goodness' sake than for God's sake.

The problem is that there are some people who'll use every excuse possible to hurt others. The my religions claims I must do this way has just been really convinient for a long time, mostly due to people not being able actually read and Thus learn that, No! My religion does not claim that I must do this.

Also, pretty sure there hasn't been organized Religion "since the dawn of man". Probably took a few thousand years for that to happen!

Have you read the Bible?


"Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)"

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)"

"18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. (Leviticus 18:22 KJV)"

"9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 KJV)"



Go on, do some mental gymnastics and show me how, actually, the Bible doesn't condone slavery while condemning homosexuality.

 

[RetroActive]

That was not my intention as I don't find the need to feel connected for its own sake, which is rather sentimentality. If anything, there is at least some solace within the landscape of culture, however illusory and ultimately meaningless.

You know, I'm hung-over and not really intelligent enough to converse with you at the best of times but what you just wrote there seems like a complete contradiction to me.

Regardless, however you think or feel about it you are connected to something larger than yourself, that's a simple provable fact.

Everything is illusory, I'll agree (now you're talking like a mystic), that we can even conceptualize that is the interesting bit. Ultimately meaningless? OK, and then what? In the end what does have meaning? No thing.

My head hurts.

 

[rhubroma]

You know, I'm hung-over and not really intelligent enough to converse with you at the best of times but what you just wrote there seems like a complete contradiction to me.

Regardless, however you think or feel about it you are connected to something larger than yourself, that's a simple provable fact.

Everything is illusory, I'll agree (now you're talking like a mystic), that we can even conceptualize that is the interesting bit. Ultimately meaningless? OK, and then what? In the end what does have meaning? No thing.

My head hurts.

Though as far as "being connected to something larger than yourself is concerned," I'd consider Plotinus, the last great pagan philosopher, who said at the eve of his death: "I am about to give the divine that is in me, back to the divine that is in everything."

This is about as mystical as I can get.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

A honest question to the religious on this forum, couse you know... I'm puzzled .

Don't you have any problems with your respective holy books? The historical inaccurasies, the claims about our physical world that can easily be proven to be wrong, the bloodshed your supposed god have been ordering throughout your holy books, the impossible demands of servility and obedience, the contradictions that they are filled with? Musn't you, after having interpreted the 1000nd thing god asked you to do, to be something else have to ask yourself: Ok, perhaps I'll continue to belive in god, but this book is NOT a decent guide to a happy, moral and decent life for me and my fellow human beings?

 

[RetroActive]

Study the history of the classical world. Study the history of early Christianity. The historical Jesus was Hebrew, his followers likewise. Their movement remained provincial, what else is there to say. The obvious patriotic role that religiosity played during the Roman Empire, which was part of the “national spirit,” meant that at some point Christianity needed to belong to that civilization. Syncretism was then a daily fact of life, in a world dominated by polytheism, for which we might even speak of total religious chaos by the third century, if not before. Yet Christianity offered the state with a salvation religion to which all citizens could belong, irrespective of sex or social status.

"The historical Jesus was Hebrew, his followers likewise." It's my understanding that there's very flimsy evidence for a historical Jesus. I was asking for a source(s). I'm open minded either way.

I have some awareness of the messiness of the circumstance and that all polytheistic religions were ultimately monotheistic "the unknowable God". You've already refered to Christianity being around before Christianity the religion.

My larger point was there seems to have been a lot more cross fertilization, particularly among the mystery schools etc. It's reported that Plato, Solon, Pythagoras etc. were doing the rounds from Egypt through the M.E., for ex. So where one culture begins and ends isn't exactly clear cut at all. Using the starting point of ancient Hebrew as a dialect of Canaanite sheds a whole new light on the circumstance. Throw in the Chaldeans and Hyksos among many other Semetic tribes and the question of who the Jews were gets more interesting. There's a lot more similarities among all these seemingly seperate and distinct religions when you lift the hood, however they customized in the telling it becomes secondary. Certainly not worth warring over then or now but that's oversimplifying war of course. Any differences will do really when push comes to shove I suppose.

 

[RetroActive]

Though as far as "being connected to something larger than yourself is concerned," I'd consider Plotinus, the last great pagan philosopher, who said at the eve of his death: "I am about to give the divine that is in me, back to the divine that is in everything."

This is about as mystical as I can get.

that's about as mystical as it does get.

 

[BigMac]

A honest question to the religious on this forum, couse you know... I'm puzzled .

Don't you have any problems with your respective holy books? The historical inaccurasies, the claims about our physical world that can easily be proven to be wrong, the bloodshed your supposed god have been ordering throughout your holy books, the impossible demands of servility and obedience, the contradictions that they are filled with? Musn't you, after having interpreted the 1000nd thing god asked you to do, to be something else have to ask yourself: Ok, perhaps I'll continue to belive in god, but this book is NOT a decent guide to a happy, moral and decent life for me and my fellow human beings?

They don't dare to question their respective religions ideals, not those who are writen in the books nor the ones that verbaly stood over the years. That is the whole point. Beacause, you know, they will go to hell if they do so.

It is easier to stick to an ancient compilation of non sence phrases and
to-do's, because, according to them, you will get to live another life. A better one.

Those who don't relate themselves with the reasons above are probably to dumb to question.

 

[horsinabout]

bless ya horsin..............bless everyone

Mark L x

That is a Stella photo, I've nicked it!

A honest question to the religious on this forum, couse you know... I'm puzzled .

Don't you have any problems with your respective holy books? The historical inaccurasies, the claims about our physical world that can easily be proven to be wrong, the bloodshed your supposed god have been ordering throughout your holy books, the impossible demands of servility and obedience, the contradictions that they are filled with? Musn't you, after having interpreted the 1000nd thing god asked you to do, to be something else have to ask yourself: Ok, perhaps I'll continue to belive in god, but this book is NOT a decent guide to a happy, moral and decent life for me and my fellow human beings?

Yes, the falsification of history. Just like little red riding hood, and the big bad wolf. It holds within it a tale, a simplified life's lesson - beware the duplicity of the big bad wolf. Life is full of contradiction, no? History above all else should be recorded accurately other wise, the big bad wolf will make it up as he goes along!

 

[rhubroma]

"The historical Jesus was Hebrew, his followers likewise." It's my understanding that there's very flimsy evidence for a historical Jesus. I was asking for a source(s). I'm open minded either way.

I have some awareness of the messiness of the circumstance and that all polytheistic religions were ultimately monotheistic "the unknowable God". You've already refered to Christianity being around before Christianity the religion.

My larger point was there seems to have been a lot more cross fertilization, particularly among the mystery schools etc. It's reported that Plato, Solon, Pythagoras etc. were doing the rounds from Egypt through the M.E., for ex. So where one culture begins and ends isn't exactly clear cut at all. Using the starting point of ancient Hebrew as a dialect of Canaanite sheds a whole new light on the circumstance. Throw in the Chaldeans and Hyksos among many other Semetic tribes and the question of who the Jews were gets more interesting. There's a lot more similarities among all these seemingly seperate and distinct religions when you lift the hood, however they customized in the telling it becomes secondary. Certainly not worth warring over then or now but that's oversimplifying war of course. Any differences will do really when push comes to shove I suppose.

As far as the historical basis of Jesus is concerned I defer to the specialists, who generally accept the premise, though I really couldn't care less, for in any case all the rest is myth.

As to the rest, you haven't considered Hermes Trismegistos and the hermetic school.

 

[RetroActive]

A honest question to the religious on this forum, couse you know... I'm puzzled .

Don't you have any problems with your respective holy books? The historical inaccurasies, the claims about our physical world that can easily be proven to be wrong, the bloodshed your supposed god have been ordering throughout your holy books, the impossible demands of servility and obedience, the contradictions that they are filled with? Musn't you, after having interpreted the 1000nd thing god asked you to do, to be something else have to ask yourself: Ok, perhaps I'll continue to belive in god, but this book is NOT a decent guide to a happy, moral and decent life for me and my fellow human beings?

There's the baby and an ocean of bathwater unfortunately. This hasn't changed though. We still kick the **** out of eachother over just about anything. Arguing over God is about as bright as arguing over who sunshine loves most.

 

[aphronesis]

Your an intriguing fellow. I really don't understand how you can draw such clear distinctions with such certainty about much of what you posted. In particular: "the historical Hebrew Jesus of Nazareth (Joshua ben Josef)...which Jesus and his initial disciples all belong and never thought of leaving and brought to the gentile peoples". I'm curious about the source of this info.? Sincere question.

"In fact incipient Christianity is Greek, not Hebrew, in both its etymological and cultural parameters." What are the etymological and cultural parameters of Greek and Hebrew? I'm thinking about this from a syncretic perspective.

I think Rhub was hewing to a more metaphysical line, but you may find that this book answers some of your questions and sorts out the move from a particular individual to a discursive field of symbols that come to occupy different roles as they move through the centuries.

More generally, although not the only book on the subject by any means, its approach does much to clear up many of the less interesting binaries that were being tossed around a few days ago: church/state, laws/values, sacred/secular etc.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Kingdom-Glory-Theological-Government/dp/0804760160

 

[RetroActive]

As far as the historical basis of Jesus is concerned I defer to the specialists, who generally accept the premise, though I really couldn't care less, for in any case all the rest is myth.

As to the rest, you haven't considered the Hermes Trismegistos and the hermetic school.

Sure but those myths contain concepts that baffle us to this day.

Hermes/Thoth/Odin/Buddha/Mercury, the mind.