Review on doping within Cycling Australia

[Dear Wiggo]

We are talking about two completely different things. My questions are:

Possibly. AIS and CA et al come under ASC - the Australian Sports Commission. ASC is the direct link to goverment funding.

Stevens was one of the best Aussie riders at that time, and his selection would be due to his ability as much as his connections to the management at the time.

Whilst ASC may not have been directly selecting Stevens, my reading of other cases of drug use and / or corruption involving investigations at the ASC level lead me to believe that's where the rot starts in Australian sport.

The most accomplished friends of the current management team are selected.

Anyone singing the right song gets a gig at AIS / CA (eg: our athletes are clean and 50% Hct is unfair), unless an outside influence (say, like MP Jackie Kelly) steps in and says WTF? Then some heads roll and some minor reshuffling occurs, but for the most part, it's same ol' same ol'.

 

[questions]

That would have been the National Selection (Road) Committee, but who was on that in 1998 I don't know (or don't remember if I ever did back then).

In hindsight, these types of selections look very questionable, but I think it's more a case that the committee acted in accordance with the 1998 selection policy and criteria, which was based around performance and teamwork aspects only. Not so much a case of corruption/incompetence by the selectors, but gaps in what we as fans/interested outsiders would like to have.

As long as a rider was not officially sanctioned, they were open for selection under the criteria previously published and if a rider felt they were left out of the squad unfairly, then they could have challenged the selection process in court.

Unfortunately, there was nothing (and still isn't that I am aware of, but will need to go and look) related to ethics, morals and/or riders under investigation as being reasons to exclude. Without an official sanction, there was no basis to exclude a rider from consideration.



Same as previous point. The documented and published selection criteria didn't cover that type of issue. Official sanctions were the criteria to exclude a rider.

Hopefully that changes and with the AOC moving towards requiring statutory declarations from athletes before being considered for selection, this situation hopefully won't occur again in the future.



He was, just not in Australia. That's a questionable thing on the outside and probably worth asking that of the ASADA investigation as a cycling fan (after all, they've asked for information from anyone with relevant details and that is the sort of question that is relevant, even if 14 years is a long time ago).

Thank you very much for these great answers. It seems that according to the "rules" he was eligible, but, it was by no means ethical, nor moral, and I am sure he wasn't selected because of a fear that they might be sued if he wasn't. There were plenty more guys around that could have been selected, and no-one would have complained because Stephens was left out.

But, the fact that he was the ONLY person not to be sancioned, not even investigated, is disgusting And if the reasons were because it happened in another country I find that very weak, and the excuse that he thought they were vitamins even weaker. Smells a lot like a coverup. And what worries me is that these officials most likely still work in Cycling Australia.

 

[fatsprintking]

What do you mean its not going to matter? Of course it matters. It matters that the people that selected Neil Stephens for the national team just 2 months after the Festina affair have NO interest in a clean sport. These people are probably still in cycling and making the decisions that have brought us to where we are today. These people MUST go. It has nothing to do with punishing Neil Stephens, as he is just a victim of an era, but with the corrupt officials in the Australian system.

ASADA please investigate this also.

When I heard that he had been selected, I knew there was no hope. Australian cycling was corrupt to its core. I quit the sport, never to race my bike again. And I, like the two guys in your town, was state and national road champion as a junior. So yeah, you could say that I was ****ed over.

What I meant is that it will be a long list, and highlighting a few names will not change the sport when the majority of people at the top level will have been implicated. The selectors of Stephens will have the legal system on their side (he was legally able to ride at that time) regardless of their moral culpability.

What I was getting at is that the between road and track, the majority of people on the inside were part of the joke and you have to get rid of all of them if you want change.

As others have said there are many good people in cycling at the lower level who keep the sport alive, but at the top end you are going to struggle to get past various vested interests unless you change the system and bring new people in from outside of the current cohort.

Essentially I agree with you, but I fel like we have to move past individual scenes and see that in reality it was the whole movie that was the problem.

 

[blackcat]

fsk ^ <thumbup>

x2

 

[questions]

What I meant is that it will be a long list, and highlighting a few names will not change the sport when the majority of people at the top level will have been implicated. The selectors of Stephens will have the legal system on their side (he was legally able to ride at that time) regardless of their moral culpability.

What I was getting at is that the between road and track, the majority of people on the inside were part of the joke and you have to get rid of all of them if you want change.

As others have said there are many good people in cycling at the lower level who keep the sport alive, but at the top end you are going to struggle to get past various vested interests unless you change the system and bring new people in from outside of the current cohort.

Essentially I agree with you, but I fel like we have to move past individual scenes and see that in reality it was the whole movie that was the problem.

Well, yeah. So? Good people at lower levels has nothing to do with what I am talking about. So, you say, forget about it and let dopers such as Stephens continue in the sport being an infuence over our younger generations, and the people that allowed him to stay there to keep running the sport?

In that, I totally disagree with you. Now is the moment to completely clean out cycling. Why do White and Hodge have to go? because they have manned up and told the truth? whereas Stephens can continue to live a lie? I really hope Hodge tells the WHOLE truth and not just have truths, as he rode at times on the same team as Stephens and surely has information that could help clean up the sport. Hopefully he is man enough to do just that.

Oh, and why the hell wasn't he suspended like everyone else? Coverup? The Australian officials protected their doper, while the rest of the countries punished theirs. Disgusting.

 

[fatsprintking]

Well, yeah. So? Good people at lower levels has nothing to do with what I am talking about. So, you say, forget about it and let dopers such as Stephens continue in the sport being an infuence over our younger generations, and the people that allowed him to stay there to keep running the sport?

In that, I totally disagree with you. Now is the moment to completely clean out cycling. Why do White and Hodge have to go? because they have manned up and told the truth? whereas Stephens can continue to live a lie? I really hope Hodge tells the WHOLE truth and not just have truths, as he rode at times on the same team as Stephens and surely has information that could help clean up the sport. Hopefully he is man enough to do just that.

Oh, and why the hell wasn't he suspended like everyone else? Coverup? The Australian officials protected their doper, while the rest of the countries punished theirs. Disgusting.

Actually I dont think you are following what I am saying, which is to get rid of the whole crew, not just Stephen's. But anyway..

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

What I meant is that it will be a long list, and highlighting a few names will not change the sport when the majority of people at the top level will have been implicated. The selectors of Stephens will have the legal system on their side (he was legally able to ride at that time) regardless of their moral culpability.

What I was getting at is that the between road and track, the majority of people on the inside were part of the joke and you have to get rid of all of them if you want change.

As others have said there are many good people in cycling at the lower level who keep the sport alive, but at the top end you are going to struggle to get past various vested interests unless you change the system and bring new people in from outside of the current cohort.

Essentially I agree with you, but I fel like we have to move past individual scenes and see that in reality it was the whole movie that was the problem.

The majority were in on the joke, but is it absolutely necessary to get rid of all of them for cycling to change? Some of the old guard have their grubby snouts in the cycling myth trough. Others will remember a time they wished doping wasn't a necessary evil, before they were fully groomed to accept the culture. The latter category are likely to support change if they see the possibility.

If the institutional dishonesty and the opportunities for insiders to personally profit from the myth are removed, it's likely that many of the true parasites will leave cycling in search of easier prey. Leaving the good-ish guys behind.

What's needed is the uncontaminated, well meaning people at the next level must hold the top brass accountable. They need to use their vote to back proposals for increased transparency and get rid of people who don't offer/support constructive steps to improve the sport.

It's a smaller task than it sounds. Elections within NGOs are generally dominated by apathy. It will take surprisingly few people voting the right way to begin meaningful change. Sure it's not the quick fix or instant perfection that everyone wants, myself included. But pragmatic steps in the right direction are the only way I see the situation improving.

 

[questions]

Actually I dont think you are following what I am saying, which is to get rid of the whole crew, not just Stephen's. But anyway..

Your right, I wasn't following, as it seemed to me that you were saying it wasn't worth it. But, this could be a good starting point, because for me, it is a clear indication of a coverup by Australian authorities. All others were punished by their federations, while Neil Stephens not only was never punished, he was SELECTED to represent our country!

People like Stephen Hodge, if he really has the best interest of the sport at heart, would tell the WHOLE truth. To guarantee that no-one will have to do what he had to do. It is clear that Neil Stevens will never man up and tell the truth. But, the authorities could at least ASK him. He could help a lot if he did tell the truth.

 

[questions]

The majority were in on the joke, but is it absolutely necessary to get rid of all of them for cycling to change? Some of the old guard have their grubby snouts in the cycling myth trough. Others will remember a time they wished doping wasn't a necessary evil, before they were fully groomed to accept the culture. The latter category are likely to support change if they see the possibility.

If the institutional dishonesty and the opportunities for insiders to personally profit from the myth are removed, it's likely that many of the true parasites will leave cycling in search of easier prey. Leaving the good-ish guys behind.

What's needed is the uncontaminated, well meaning people at the next level must hold the top brass accountable. They need to use their vote to back proposals for increased transparency and get rid of people who don't offer/support constructive steps to improve the sport.

It's a smaller task than it sounds. Elections within NGOs are generally dominated by apathy. It will take surprisingly few people voting the right way to begin meaningful change. Sure it's not the quick fix or instant perfection that everyone wants, myself included. But pragmatic steps in the right direction are the only way I see the situation improving.

What we need, is for everyone, the White's, the Hodge's, the Stephens, the Andersons, the Rogers, the Davis, the retired pros, the ones that didn't make it, everyone, TELL THE WHOLE TRUTH. What's happened has happened. It's not fair, but it has happened. Most of you have made your money. The ones that didn't probably weren't cheating and were robbed of theirs. For the sake of the sport, and for the future generations, TELL THE WHOLE TRUTH.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

What we need, is for everyone, the White's, the Hodge's, the Stephens, the Andersons, the Rogers, the Davis, the retired pros, the ones that didn't make it, everyone, TELL THE WHOLE TRUTH. What's happened has happened. It's not fair, but it has happened. Most of you have made your money. The ones that didn't probably weren't cheating and were robbed of theirs. For the sake of the sport, and for the future generations, TELL THE WHOLE TRUTH.

Yeah, the truth would move things forward massively.

It's pretty tough to face publicly airing all your misdeeds to a disapproving and unsympathetic world though. Most of them won't have the guts, so they will keep justifying their silence to themselves however they can.

What you want would require a critical mass of people at the highest level of cycling to be more honest and courageous than average human beings....

 

[Tinman]

Yeah, the truth would move things forward massively.

It's pretty tough to face publicly airing all your misdeeds to a disapproving and unsympathetic world though. Most of them won't have the guts, so they will keep justifying their silence to themselves however they can.

What you want would require a critical mass of people at the highest level of cycling to be more honest and courageous than average human beings....

At this point in time those who speak out are starting to be held in higher esteem than those everyone knows are dirty and keep silent. Soon the only thing that sets the silent ones apart is that they are trying to hang on to the past and will be part of the future problem. Being silent will mean dirty.

Omertà doesn't just suck, it's dirty.

 

[peterst6906]

At this point in time those who speak out are starting to be held in higher esteem than those everyone knows are dirty and keep silent.

And I think that is only right.

What they did in the past to win and succeed shouldn't be forgotten, but by coming forward, hopefully it sets and example that it is possible to speak out and be forgiven.

The lucky thing is that no-one cheats in a vacuum, there are always links to other people that risk being surfaced if enough people offer up what they know.

I sincerely hope that those that come forward go on to achieve further success, and those that stay silent get found out and kicked out of the sport.

 

[blackcat]

like contador? see:front page of CN today

 

[peterst6906]

like contador? see:front page of CN today

I take it that "speak out" refers to admitting and explaining your own doping practices.

Contador doesn't fit that description; and as this is an Australian review, he is lucky (for him) to miss out there as well.

 

[Galic Ho]

like contador? see:front page of CN today

If they want to find the truth then they need to be talking to veterinarians about how many pro sportsmen they have as clients.

I now know why becoming a vet has the highest UAI or whatever measure they use for your HSC at the end of school. Lots of money to be made. Need to know animal physiology, chemistry and on top of that some human bio mechanics to boot. Some of these guys must be making a packet in off the books deals and shady drug supplies that have nothing to do with animals.

Talking to the teams, riders and staff is pointless. It's the doctors who are supplying the drugs. So unless you apply pressure to them, nobody will squeal. Vets are a huge part of that in Australia and that is recreational focused. Isn't the IGF1 developer in Adelaide still? Maybe pound on them a bit about whether Spaniards and other Europeans have paid visits in January? A nice police probe would find a lot...but sadly there are more important things the police need to focus on than pro sportsmen juicing up, shaving their legs and riding bikes in lycra.

 

[questions]

At this point in time those who speak out are starting to be held in higher esteem than those everyone knows are dirty and keep silent. Soon the only thing that sets the silent ones apart is that they are trying to hang on to the past and will be part of the future problem. Being silent will mean dirty.

Omertà doesn't just suck, it's dirty.

Exactly. Soon they will realise that telling the truth is the best for everyone, even themselves. The truth will set you free.

 

[blackcat]

If they want to find the truth then they need to be talking to veterinarians about how many pro sportsmen they have as clients.

I now know why becoming a vet has the highest UAI or whatever measure they use for your HSC at the end of school. Lots of money to be made. Need to know animal physiology, chemistry and on top of that some human bio mechanics to boot. Some of these guys must be making a packet in off the books deals and shady drug supplies that have nothing to do with animals.

Talking to the teams, riders and staff is pointless. It's the doctors who are supplying the drugs. So unless you apply pressure to them, nobody will squeal. Vets are a huge part of that in Australia and that is recreational focused. Isn't the IGF1 developer in Adelaide still? Maybe pound on them a bit about whether Spaniards and other Europeans have paid visits in January? A nice police probe would find a lot...but sadly there are more important things the police need to focus on than pro sportsmen juicing up, shaving their legs and riding bikes in lycra.

Gropep. Thats the IGF-1 manufacturer in Adelaide. Manalo Saiz was using that in the months in January, and taking some back. Thanks Mr Turtur.

http://sgp1.paddington.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/cover_stories/transcript_431.asp

Drugs in Sport

HELEN DALLEY, REPORTER: In this building in Adelaide, a small Australian biotechnology company produces one of the most sought-after drugs in the world ... Insulin like Growth Factor, or IGF. Sold legitimately by the Gro-Pep company as a substance for cell research in laboratories, IGF 1 has become like liquid gold to an illegitimate market, the sports market.

GRANT ELLISON, PERFORMANCE CONSULTANT: Well the research, what it's originally being used for in the research is certainly not for sports.

REPORTER: But it's ending up in sports?

ELLISON: Certainly

REPORTER: Do you know people on it?

ELLISON: I do.

REPORTER: Are they at the elite level?

ELLISON: They certainly are, they're competing nationally and internationally.

REPORTER: Will they be competing at the Olympic games in Sydney?

ELLISON: There will be some of those people who'll be competing at the Olympic Games.

REPORTER: While little known to most of us, IGF1 is well-known in the world of elite sports, as one of the latest banned drugs of choice, along with the more popular human growth hormone, known as HGH and erythropoietin, known as EPO.

 

[Galic Ho]

Gropep. Thats the IGF-1 manufacturer in Adelaide. Manalo Saiz was using that in the months in January, and taking some back. Thanks Mr Turtur.

Thanks indeed Mr Turtur and the South Australian Govt. A nice audit of how much tax payer money has been handed over to Turtur for his bike race and to LA is due.

There has been a lot of things going on in South Australia for some time now. And I am not talking about the wine.

Cheers Blackcat

 

[Tinman]

Gropep. Thats the IGF-1 manufacturer in Adelaide. Manalo Saiz was using that in the months in January, and taking some back. Thanks Mr Turtur.

http://sgp1.paddington.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/cover_stories/transcript_431.asp

This first came out around 2000 before the Sydney Olympics. Are you inferring that this under the table supply is still going on?

 

[Galic Ho]

This first came out around 2000 before the Sydney Olympics. Are you inferring that this under the table supply is still going on?

Why would you assume any different? Do you go to a gym? Do you live in any major city in Australia? If gym members are running off to their mates who make a grand a week selling clenbuterol on the side that they get from a veterinarian, then what do you think professional athletes are doing?

There is a big difference between aesthetics and performance enhancing goals. Around the time of that article there were a lot of references to athletes getting their supplies from vets and that was a decade ago. Still going on man. Under the table shenanigans and back room trading for stuff you can't go to a doctor and get a prescription for. After a few people got popped posting themselves crap from Asia and blackmarket hot spots via customs, they decided to get it locally. And the point is you can. The companies are here for some things and when they won't give it to you there are a few dubious vets who will. I've even heard of people stealing from veterinary clinics.

There is a lot that goes on that people don't see. You can buy marijuana, well one molecule removed marijuana, at servos. There are a lot of sports supplements that should be banned because they mess heavily with your metabolism. If casual everyday people do stuff for aesthetics, then pros will certainly go after performance enhancing stuff. And yes, someone will always sell it. Not everyone has a moral compass or restraint. The almighty $$$ rules the hearts of many.

 

[Tinman]

Why would you assume any different? Do you go to a gym? Do you live in any major city in Australia? If gym members are running off to their mates who make a grand a week selling clenbuterol on the side that they get from a veterinarian, then what do you think professional athletes are doing?

There is a big difference between aesthetics and performance enhancing goals. Around the time of that article there were a lot of references to athletes getting their supplies from vets and that was a decade ago. Still going on man. Under the table shenanigans and back room trading for stuff you can't go to a doctor and get a prescription for. After a few people got popped posting themselves crap from Asia and blackmarket hot spots via customs, they decided to get it locally. And the point is you can. The companies are here for some things and when they won't give it to you there are a few dubious vets who will. I've even heard of people stealing from veterinary clinics.

There is a lot that goes on that people don't see. You can buy marijuana, well one molecule removed marijuana, at servos. There are a lot of sports supplements that should be banned because they mess heavily with your metabolism. If casual everyday people do stuff for aesthetics, then pros will certainly go after performance enhancing stuff. And yes, someone will always sell it. Not everyone has a moral compass or restraint. The almighty $$$ rules the hearts of many.

I agree with your reading 100% (I have some personal know how on Vets and PEDs dating back to the mid 80s) but was hoping there was some recent update on the GroPep/IGF story....

 

[blackcat]

Why would you assume any different? Do you go to a gym? Do you live in any major city in Australia? If gym members are running off to their mates who make a grand a week selling clenbuterol on the side that they get from a veterinarian, then what do you think professional athletes are doing?

There is a big difference between aesthetics and performance enhancing goals. Around the time of that article there were a lot of references to athletes getting their supplies from vets and that was a decade ago. Still going on man. Under the table shenanigans and back room trading for stuff you can't go to a doctor and get a prescription for. After a few people got popped posting themselves crap from Asia and blackmarket hot spots via customs, they decided to get it locally. And the point is you can. The companies are here for some things and when they won't give it to you there are a few dubious vets who will. I've even heard of people stealing from veterinary clinics.

There is a lot that goes on that people don't see. You can buy marijuana, well one molecule removed marijuana, at servos. There are a lot of sports supplements that should be banned because they mess heavily with your metabolism. If casual everyday people do stuff for aesthetics, then pros will certainly go after performance enhancing stuff. And yes, someone will always sell it. Not everyone has a moral compass or restraint. The almighty $$$ rules the hearts of many.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/dan...at-perth-airport/story-e6frg12c-1225785313709

EXCLUSIVE: FORMER West Coast Eagle Daniel Chick has been apprehended at Perth Airport over steroids.

 

[blackcat]

This first came out around 2000 before the Sydney Olympics. Are you inferring that this under the table supply is still going on?

was involved in the Operation Puerto scandal I do believe. The IGF-1 that Saiz had, was from Adelaide. Remind me, who was the director of the race in sleepy Adelaide. Could he possibly have hooked Manalo up with the Gropep boffin?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

was involved in the Operation Puerto scandal I do believe. The IGF-1 that Saiz had, was from Adelaide. Remind me, who was the director of the race in sleepy Adelaide. Could he possibly have hooked Manalo up with the Gropep boffin?

Huh. No idea on the doctor's name. Did remind me of something Krebs Cycle posted recently, let me go find it...

Of course, anything less than labelling Armstrong as the cycling Satan in print clearly means that Dave Martin is in league with the devil himself and by extension the entire AIS runs a systematic doping program. In fact it was probably Ashenden himself that told Ferrari how to beat the test he and Dave helped to develop, and the AIS supplied the PEDs to Armstrong.

 

[blackcat]

Huh. No idea on the doctor's name. Did remind me of something Krebs Cycle posted recently, let me go find it...

using boffin, not meant to be "the Gropep MD doctor"