Richie makes his Clinic debut...

[La Pandera]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/porte-cites-self-as-proof-of-cleaner-cycling

“I'm sure the riders I've ridden with before think that I have cheated. But **** them. Look at us young riders, we are a new generation,” Porte said.

“Look at the Danes, Australians and Englishmen, it is where young riders will come and take over. The Australians should not even get a Coke or caffeine-gel, it's pretty extreme. Sport is undoubtedly cleaner than ever.”

Is there some bond going on with the Danes, Australians and Englishmen that has left the rest of the peloton in the dark ages of cheating and immoral athletic behaviour? Are the French, since they weren't mentioned by Porte, part of this axis of evil? I would've thought that the French would be at the forefront of this Polly Purebread faction of the pro peloton, not the Danes, Australians and Englishmen.

 

[Frosty]

Is there some bond going on with the Danes, Australians and Englishmen that has left the rest of the peloton in the dark ages of cheating and immoral athletic behaviour? Are the French, since they weren't mentioned by Porte, part of this axis of evil? I would've thought that the French would be at the forefront of this Polly Purebread faction of the pro peloton, not the Danes, Australians and Englishmen.

He does ride for a danish team so it seems reasonable to assume that he has more knowledge of danish riders than french riders. Dont know how many english riders he knows.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Is there some bond going on with the Danes, Australians and Englishmen that has left the rest of the peloton in the dark ages of cheating and immoral athletic behaviour? Are the French, since they weren't mentioned by Porte, part of this axis of evil? I would've thought that the French would be at the forefront of this Polly Purebread faction of the pro peloton, not the Danes, Australians and Englishmen.

He never said that. He said that's where he sees "where young riders will come and take over" That doesn't mean they are the clean nations and the rest are dopers.

 

[hrotha]

Yes but the onus is on people to prove his guilt not that he is innocent which is why he should be given the benfit of the doubt going on your logic.

He has said stuff about Vinokourov, Valverde & landis. Why would he also make comments about AC or LA on their situations. With AC, he didn't say he was guilty but didn't say he was innocent like many others who are suppose to be anti doping (Millar). He just didn't want to get involved with it and look like a hypocrite so said I need to look at it more. With LA he said that this investigation will prove his guilt or innocence eitherway and that there will be no more investigations after this one.

Well, I'd say there's a difference between "giving Evans the benefit of the doubt" (which I do) and "claiming Evans is obviously clean, 100% sure" (which is what some people here are saying).

 

[auscyclefan94]

Well, I'd say there's a difference between "giving Evans the benefit of the doubt" (which I do) and "claiming Evans is obviously clean, 100% sure" (which is what some people here are saying).

Don't count me in that group!

 

[La Pandera]

If Evans was doping on T-Mobile I think he was doing it on his own, and not on the team program, since he was an outsider or considered 'weird' by a lot of his teammates.

...and that's a drastic change from the present????

 

[The Hitch]

Yes but the onus is on people to prove his guilt not that he is innocent which is why he should be given the benfit of the doubt going on your logic.

The onus isnt really on anyone to prove anything. If we were trying to get him suspended or something then yes, but if we simply want to hold an opinion or convince others then we dont have to prove anything, especially since in the current enviroment we dont have access to the neccesary inforamtion

In the current enviroment you cant really prove anyone is doping unless they fail a test because we arent given any information.. We know its perfectly possible for people to get away with doping and that a large number of cyclists have done this. But we cant prove who it is because the law is on the side of the dopers.

I have my suspicions that a number of top riders are doping based on things said, things written, things done, but none of this would PROVE that they are doping.

He has said stuff about Vinokourov, Valverde & landis

Probably the 3 easiest targets with the exception of maybe Ricco and Rasmussen.

Though i am not one of the people that thinks Evans has said anything wrong regarding doping. I guess you could argue that many clean riders would be going mad with rage that the guys who are beating them are doping but i dont argue that.

Then again looking at those clips dave posted, especially the headbut maybe weve found where all that rage is going

 

[La Pandera]

Ah yes, consistency, something riders like Valverde and Contador apparently didn't display.

....but remember they're Spanish, so it doesn't apply.

 

[Merckx index]

to the first bolded...his vo2max is certainly an indication of an elite talent and is plausible, if true, but the second number -7.6 w/kg - had me wonder. that's extremely high - though im not sure what that number exactly represents -
power at vo2max, vo2peak or what ? if that's vo2max watts, an argument can be made that it's not a clean number as for example indurains similar value was just over 7 and basso's (measured by the same clinic) just about there too.

I assume it corresponds to some peak output, definitely not a sustainable output. It corresponds, e.g., to a VAM of about 2000 (6% grade) to nearly 2300 (10% grade).

 

[craig1985]

I think this is a fair and balanced analysis.

Personally, I think its unfair to assume everyone dopes without some form of evidence. On the flip side, its naive to come on here and say with certainy somebody doesnt dope. I would like to believe some riders are clean but I would never go out on a limb to defend someone. Never be surprised with anything.

Is Richie Porte doping, I have no idea, as yet there is no evidence so unfair to point the finger but as others have said, he is a pro cyclist so I will keep an open mind.

This, so very much.

 

[craig1985]

...and that's a drastic change from the present????

I would have no idea if that is the case or not, all I know is from his Telekom/T-Mobile days judging from several articles and interviews that I've read.

 

[Monte Zoncolon]

Here is the result again of the 2010 Men's Elite World Road Racing Time Trial Championship.


But only the Top Twenty from the individual standings are included. Plus their overall times and
average speed in Km/h and Miles/h.




http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/09/road/world-elite-mens-time-trial-championship-results_143849



With which The Hitch famously quoted the following. With his enduring intelligible scepticism................

Obviously like everyone else he was doped for the world tt

0VERALL DISTANCE / 45.8 KM / 28.45 MILES




-------------------COMPETITOR-------------------------OVERALL TIME---------AVERAGE SPEED KM/H-----MILES/H

1. Fabian Cancellara, Switzerland, 58:09.19_________0:58:09______________47.257--km/h________29.364--m/h
2. David Millar, Great Britain, at 1:02.7______________0:59:11______________46.431--km/h________28.850--m/h
3. Tony Martin, Germany, at 1:12.49________________0:59:21______________46.301--km/h________28.777--m/h
4. Richie Porte, Australia, at 1:19.00______________0:59:28______________46.210--km/h________28.713--m/h
5. Michael Rogers, Australia, at 2:24.94_____________1:00:34______________45.371--km/h________28.192--m/h
6. Koos Moerenhout, Netherlands, at 2:40.69_________1:00:49______________45.184--km/h________28.075--m/h
7. Luis Leon Sanchez Gil, Spain, at 2:44.23__________1:00:53______________45.135--km/h________28.045--m/h
8. David Zabriskie, United States, at 2:51.41__________1:01:00______________45.049--km/h________27.992--m/h
9. Maciej Bodnar, Poland, at 3:00.70________________1:01:09______________44.938--km/h________27.923--m/h
10. Gustav Larsson, Sweden, at 3:01.02____________1:01:10_______________44.926--km/h________27.915--m/h
11. Bert Grabsch, Germany, at 3:06.14_____________1:01:15_______________44.865--km/h________27.877--m/h
12. Ignatas Konovalovas, Lithuania, at 3:07.46________1:01:16_______________44.853--km/h________27.870--m/h
13. Vladimir Gusev, Russia, at 3:27.28______________1:01:36_______________44.610--km/h________27.719--m/h
14. Carlos Oyarzun, China, at 3:30.54______________1:01:39_______________44.574--km/h________27.696--m/h
15. Nicolas Vogondy, France, at 3:38.85_____________1:01:48______________44.466--km/h_________27.629--m/h
16. Andriy Grivko, Ukraine, at 3:40.70_______________1:01:49_______________44.454--km/h________27.622--m/h
17. José Ivan Gutierrez Palacios, Spain, at 3:42.56____1:01:51_______________44.430--km/h________27.607--m/h
18. Alex Rasmussen, Denmark, at 3:45.07___________1:01:54_______________44.394--km/h________27.585--m/h
19. Sylvain Chavanel, France, at 3:59.84____________1:02:09_______________44.215--km/h________27.473--m/h
20. Janez Brajkovic, Slovenia, at 4:03.97____________1:02:13_______________44.168--km/h________27.444--m/h



TIME TRIAL COURSE 2010----MELBOURNE

http://www.melbourne2010.com.au/site/_content/image/00000183-fullsize.jpg

 

[simo1733]

Did I ever say they were as bad as Spain, the USA or Italy? No. But it is proof that it's a fallacy that Britain is a clean nation. As I said before, fully 1/6 of Britain's representatives in the 2009 ProTour had confessed to taking EPO. To achieve the same ratio you'd need about a dozen Spanish or Italians. This doesn't mean you couldn't find a dozen of them, but just pulling up the numbers is as misleading as that 1/6 stat, because there are so many more pro riders from Spain and Italy.

And of course, the whole thing comes down to who actually gets caught. What justification is there for Rob Hayles' high hct there? Was he so dehydrated he was virtually collapsing? There's no altitude or genetics to point at in his case.

There is no justification for Hayles even if he deny's any wrong doing.That is why he was dropped from the GB track squad.Valverde and Contador on the other hand will imho be welcomed back to the Spanish team with open arms

 

[sublimit]

Did I ever say they were as bad as Spain, the USA or Italy? No. But it is proof that it's a fallacy that Britain is a clean nation. As I said before, fully 1/6 of Britain's representatives in the 2009 ProTour had confessed to taking EPO. To achieve the same ratio you'd need about a dozen Spanish or Italians. This doesn't mean you couldn't find a dozen of them, but just pulling up the numbers is as misleading as that 1/6 stat, because there are so many more pro riders from Spain and Italy.

And of course, the whole thing comes down to who actually gets caught. What justification is there for Rob Hayles' high hct there? Was he so dehydrated he was virtually collapsing? There's no altitude or genetics to point at in his case.

Nah its OK, Dr Maserati suggested they were as bad but I think he was joking.

Britain have cheats/dopers but they are ostracised if caught not backed to the hilt by the say the Spanish authorities. Cheating is endemic with them so its difficult to take them seriously.

Millar admited to doping and so he is back competing in the Protour but he cant compete at the next Olympics because he is banned by the British Olympic selectors. With Spain - Valverde, Contador are still national heroes despite being dopers or taking PEDs and also clamming up and not admitting anything - A massive difference.

 

[auscyclefan94]

There is no justification for Hayles even if he deny's any wrong doing.That is why he was dropped from the GB track squad.Valverde and Contador on the other hand will imho be welcomed back to the Spanish team with open arms

+1

The difference is that people in government of spain, people who are the bosses of spanish sporting bodies supported contador. There has been a lot of spanish riders who have tested positive but it is also the amount of doping scandals that involve Spain in general. Spain is one of the super powers in sport but it does make you wonder when the authorities aren't overly stringent on doping.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

+1

The difference is that people in government of spain, people who are the bosses of spanish sporting bodies supported contador. There has been a lot of spanish riders who have tested positive but it is also the amount of doping scandals that involve Spain in general. Spain is one of the super powers in sport but it does make you wonder when the authorities aren't overly stringent on doping.

And how do you know about the "doping scandals that involve Spain in general"? .....Because raids like Puerto & Galgo were done by the Spanish authorities (Guardia Civil) themselves.

There were 9 positives by Australians just before the CG - what has been the State responce? Nothing.

Be careful with that broad brush you are using.

 

[joe_papp]

Of course no-one actually said that Britain was as "bad" as any other country - but it has been suggested that they are somehow cleaner,.
Also strange how the USA made your list as their last big positive was Landis 06 (Hayles was 08) and the Papp list has snared glorified 'club riders' like Staite.

You mention that Spain, USA & Italy are "bad" countries - isn't a large part of that reputation because each of those countries has had their own law enforcement uncover the doping networks that the UCI do not (want to) uncover. How would Australia, Britain or Denmark do if the plod came knocking?

Pull in the flag, doping has nothing to do with nationality - it is a sportswide problem.

As an ironic aside, Staite easily could have been competitive as a D3 pro and had an engine bigger than mine (at least for TT's). But he went to grad school, got a masters and was gainfully and lucratively employed, and doped to see just how fast he could go - almost like a science experiment. I'm not surprised, since he had the misfortune to be away w/ me during one of the first races I won after starting EPO, and for 50km+ couldn't come around me to take a single pull - all he could do to sit on my wheel. So I'm not surprised he doped but the fact that he was "amateur" isn't indicative of his mindset or ability.

And to the poster who believes that Cadel Evans is the posterchild for anti-doping and has never doped/isn't doping: that's cool to want to believe he's clean and to hope he's clean, but I think you're getting grief from some of the other regulars here because hoping/wanting to believe isn't the same thing as knowing for a fact, and in the absence of all-hours access to Evans, can you say for certain that you know based on factual evidence that Evans never doped? Of course not. It's dangerous to throw all-in behind one particular horse so just be careful that you aren't disappointed if he one day IS unmasked as just another Spaniard.

 

[Night Rider]

My observations.

1. I’m not sure Porte was fast enough to be on a program.
2. I don’t believe anyone that says they’re clean, I’m not saying they’re dirty either but there is a very high chance they either are, or have been at some point in their career.
3. The lower incidence of positive tests doesn’t mean the sport is any cleaner.

 

[Ferminal]

My observations.

1. I’m not sure Porte was fast enough to be on a program.
2. I don’t believe anyone that says they’re clean, I’m not saying they’re dirty either but there is a very high chance they either are, or have been at some point in their career.
3. The lower incidence of positive tests doesn’t mean the sport is any cleaner.

Perfect

 

[hektoren]

And to the poster who believes that Cadel Evans is the posterchild for anti-doping and has never doped/isn't doping: that's cool to want to believe he's clean and to hope he's clean, but I think you're getting grief from some of the other regulars here because hoping/wanting to believe isn't the same thing as knowing for a fact, and in the absence of all-hours access to Evans, can you say for certain that you know based on factual evidence that Evans never doped? Of course not. It's dangerous to throw all-in behind one particular horse so just be careful that you aren't disappointed if he one day IS unmasked as just another Spaniard.

I suppose I'm a trusting person.
OTOH, I've seen numbers from about twenty of Evans' lab-tests done over the years at the Australian Institute of Sports, dating as far back as '95, when he was 18. The results are remarkably consistent and compare very well with more recent tests. Brilliant results by any standard, but consistent. Now, you might try to raise suspicion of foul play at the AIS, but you'll have some problems making it stick.

 

[blackcat]

Now, you might try to raise suspicion of foul play at the AIS, but you'll have some problems making it stick.

try that w/ BigBoat, he will throw more mud than to build a mudbrick house, and he wont care if it aint stick, cos he will make a castle.

also on Evans, speak to Thomas Frei and Bjorn Leukemans. Interesting things they may say off the record

 

[hektoren]

also on Evans, speak to Thomas Frei and Bjorn Leukemans. Interesting things they may say off the record

Oh, how I love those comments! Speculation disguised as unverifiable rumours hypothetically according to third-persons. In here that's bordering on fact.

 

[auscyclefan94]

try that w/ BigBoat, he will throw more mud than to build a mudbrick house, and he wont care if it aint stick, cos he will make a castle.

also on Evans, speak to Thomas Frei and Bjorn Leukemans. Interesting things they may say off the record

Yes, I'd certainly trust two former dopers and one who has come back to the sport and succeeding straight away. Coming back better than he was. Signs of a guy who has comeback clean to the sport and is transperent. Why don't you actually come out and tell us what they said? Otherwise don't post that heresay rubbish.

Oh, how I love those comments! Speculation disguised as unverifiable rumours hypothetically according to third-persons. In here that's bordering on fact.

Oh how true!

 

[Mambo95]

also on Evans, speak to Thomas Frei and Bjorn Leukemans. Interesting things they may say off the record

We don't know them, so that's hard. So how about what someone said on the record:

"It is possible to ride the Tour without doping. And to ride and win, too. And Cadel Evans proves in my eyes that you could win it without doping." - Tom Boonen in 2007

I'm fairly sure QS and Lotto know what goes on at each other's teams.

 

[bianchigirl]

We don't know them, so that's hard. So how about what someone said on the record:

"It is possible to ride the Tour without doping. And to ride and win, too. And Cadel Evans proves in my eyes that you could win it without doping." - Tom Boonen in 2007

I'm fairly sure QS and Lotto know what goes on at each other's teams.

So the word of one doper is better than that of another?

Personally I know whose word I'd trust here & it aint Tom Boonen's....

hektoren, I guess you have never read the Anderson report otherwise you'd know that it's all too easy to make claims of foul play at AIS stick