Richie Porte - what do we know about him?

[del1962]

The comparison to Hinault LeMond Fignon Merckx etc is to show that GT winners gave a clear indication of their potential from a very young age, always <25 and within their first few GTs. If blood doping was never invented there is reason to expect today's greats to follow a similar path of success. That is not to ignore the other dynamics in the sport which probably mean it would happen a bit later anyway.

For me though the foremost explanation is that young riders don't often get on an elite program in their first few seasons. They (or their bosses) may be reluctant to dope until they've had a few years relatively clean. Of this decade's top GT riders, those who made the breakthrough early on were those who we know doped at that time:

Contador 2007 - 24, 2nd GT
Andy Schleck 2007 - 21, first GT
Valverde 2003 - 23, 2nd GT
Cunego 2004 - 22, 2nd GT

Porte was doing triatholons at 21, Froome didn't enter pro cycling until 22, now if they had been on pro tour teams U20 then I could see the point but this is not the case.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

The comparison to Hinault LeMond Fignon Merckx etc is to show that GT winners gave a clear indication of their potential from a very young age, always <25 and within their first few GTs. If blood doping was never invented there is reason to expect today's greats to follow a similar path of success. That is not to ignore the other dynamics in the sport which probably mean it would happen a bit later anyway.

For me though the foremost explanation is that young riders don't often get on an elite program in their first few seasons. They (or their bosses) may be reluctant to dope until they've had a few years relatively clean. Of this decade's top GT riders, those who made the breakthrough early on were those who we know doped at that time:

Contador 2007 - 24, 2nd GT
Andy Schleck 2007 - 21, first GT
Valverde 2003 - 23, 2nd GT
Cunego 2004 - 22, 2nd GT

Berzin 23
Pantani 24
Ullrich 22
Zulle 23

Talent, even doped, shows from early on. You have to be wary when someone out of the blue pops up or suddenly is from another planet. Plenty of examples for that. And, they always have an excuse, one says it is hayfever, the other one says is was cancer, the other one says it is focus etc etc. And always there are certain doctors in the background, but, they do not specialize in hayfever/cancer/focus but just dealing in blood.

Porte was doing triatholons at 21, Froome didn't enter pro cycling until 22, now if they had been on pro tour teams U20 then I could see the point but this is not the case.

But Del, you have an excuse for everything.

 

[Ferminal]

Berzin 23
Pantani 24
Ullrich 22
Zulle 23
.

What is the opposite?

Armstrong 1998 - 27, 5th GT
Riis 1995 - 31, 14h GT
Jalabert 1995 - 26, 8th/9th GT
Basso 2004 - 26, 6th GT
Menchov 2005 - 27, 7th GT

 

[Lanark]

What is the opposite?

Armstrong 1998 - 27, 5th GT
Riis 1995 - 31, 14h GT
Jalabert 1995 - 26, 8th/9th GT
Basso 2004 - 26, 6th GT
Menchov 2005 - 27, 7th GT

Basso won the white jersey in 2002, Menchov in 2003. I think it's a stretch to say they made their breakthrough late.

What about Rodriguez?

 

[Ferminal]

Basso won the white jersey in 2002, Menchov in 2003. I think it's a stretch to say they made their breakthrough late.

What about Rodriguez?

White Jersey who drops 2 minutes on every mountain stage... seems like the perfect amount to improve going from "basic" to "elite" medical program. Basso improved 1'30" on his La Mongie time 2002 - 2004. 2 years later Menchov goes and trades with Heras. Think every case is different though but as a general comparison it isn't bad. Someone like Rodriguez is hard to say due to his superdomming for 5 years. Then there's Nibali whose biggest jump was 2008 - 2009 but can almost fit him into a "marginal gains every year" kind of theory.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

What is the opposite?

Armstrong 1998 - 27, 5th GT
Riis 1995 - 31, 14h GT
Jalabert 1995 - 26, 8th/9th GT
Basso 2004 - 26, 6th GT
Menchov 2005 - 27, 7th GT

Rominger for instance. Numerous other examples.

Basso? 2002 'breakthrough', junior world champion, Fleche/L-B-L results. Ferretti turned him into a GT rider.

Menchov? Won l'Avenir, one of Echevarri's special Russians He upped when he met the good old Geert L. it seems fair to say.

 

[Ferminal]

I'm not arguing that they had no talent, only that they were unable to compete for a GT win/podium early on because they were not matching them dope-wise. Being good in u23 and other races kind of supports that point.

 

[Franklin]

White Jersey who drops 2 minutes on every mountain stage... seems like the perfect amount to improve going from "basic" to "elite" medical program. Basso improved 1'30" on his La Mongie time 2002 - 2004. 2 years later Menchov goes and trades with Heras. Think every case is different though but as a general comparison it isn't bad. Someone like Rodriguez is hard to say due to his superdomming for 5 years. Then there's Nibali whose biggest jump was 2008 - 2009 but can almost fit him into a "marginal gains every year" kind of theory.

I'm not really agreeing with the Mencov/Basso classification as "late-bloomers". Even if we dismiss their white jersey's, everyone was ranking them as "future top GT rider". It's not like Riis, Armstrong and Wiggins where nobody saw it coming.

 

[Franklin]

I'm not arguing that they had no talent, only that they were unable to compete for a GT win/podium early on because they were not matching them dope-wise. Being good in u23 and other races kind of supports that point.

The problem with Riis and Armstrong was not that they didn't place high in a GT. It was that nothing remotely hinted at that capacity!

If anyone had said in 2003. Mencov and Basso will win GT's in the future nobody would have declared you to be insane. If anyone in 1992 had said Riis would be a future TdF winner they certainly would have been considered crackpot.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I'm not arguing that they had no talent, only that they were unable to compete for a GT win/podium early on because they were not matching them dope-wise. Being good in u23 and other races kind of supports that point.

Compete at that level for a podium is for freaks/superhumans. Top ten/fifteen around that age is an indication of potential. In my book at least.

From finishing 125 at 24/25 to podium at 32 is impossible.

I am not disputing Basso, he is a Ferretti boy, says enough.

 

[Ferminal]

I'm not really agreeing with the Mencov/Basso classification as "late-bloomers". Even if we dismiss their white jersey's, everyone was ranking them as "future top GT rider".

People were saying Richie Porte was a future top GT rider too... well at least in this part of the world

If Basso/Menchov (or even Nibali) can go from borderline top10 climbers to podiums in 2 years (at the age of 25-26), holding all else the same (no improvements in medical program); why can't Porte (who only rode his first GT at 25 anyway)?

 

[Parrulo]

you are being unfair to nibali, he rode 2007 and 2008 as a domestique and in 2008 he still made it to the top 20 of both the giro and the tour as a 22 year old(11th and 18th) which imo for some1 so young is very impressive.

the first time he had freedom in a GT was in the 09 tour where he was seventh but without the TTT would have been 6th pretty close time wise to a podium position.

his step up to the lowest podium place of the giro the following year isn't very surprising considering how close to the tour podium he had already been the previous year.

 

[Netserk]

you are being unfair to nibali, he rode 2007 and 2008 as a domestique and in 2008 he still made it to the top 20 of both the giro and the tour as a 22 year old(11th and 18th) which imo for some1 so young is very impressive.

the first time he had freedom in a GT was in the 09 tour where he was seventh but without the TTT would have been 6th pretty close time wise to a podium position.

his step up to the lowest podium place of the giro the following year isn't very surprising considering how close to the tour podium he had already been the previous year.

And he was the 4th best climber behind Schlecks and AC.

 

[The Hitch]

People were saying Richie Porte was a future top GT rider too... well at least in this part of the world

They were also saying that about Cameron Meyer

 

[roundabout]

the first time he had freedom in a GT was in the 09 tour where he was seventh but without the TTT would have been 6th pretty close time wise to a podium position.

Isn't that when rumors about him being "trained" by Ferrari began?

And he was 23. And it was a neutered Tour. Luckily for him he had a good day on the only mountain stage that really mattered.

 

[Netserk]

Isn't that when rumors about him being "trained" by Ferrari began?

And he was 23. And it was a neutered Tour. Luckily for him he had a good day on the only mountain stage that really mattered.

Verbier?

 

[roundabout]

Verbier?

Meh. I was wrong. He could have even finished in the 6 minute group on stage 17 and still ended up 7th.

 

[blackcat]

What is the opposite?

Armstrong 1998 - 27, 5th GT
Riis 1995 - 31, 14h GT
Jalabert 1995 - 26, 8th/9th GT
Basso 2004 - 26, 6th GT
Menchov 2005 - 27, 7th GT

+Evans
+Wiggns

 

[roundabout]

Leipheimer podiumed his first GT.

 

[Pentacycle]

And he was the 4th best climber behind Schlecks and AC.

Yeah, people keep forgetting Nibali delivered his best climbing performances among known dopers, in the '09 Tour. Climbing better than Armstrong, Wiggins ... Where is Nibali's Clinic thread? But he's the forum's favourite rider, so I guess it wouldn't be accepted.

 

[The Hitch]

Yeah, people keep forgetting Nibali delivered his best climbing performances among known dopers, in the '09 Tour. Climbing better than Armstrong, Wiggins ... Where is Nibali's Clinic thread? But he's the forum's favourite rider, so I guess it wouldn't be accepted.

oh ffs not this trolling again.

This crap was tried about 2 days ago, and the point was made that Nibali has been a subject of clinic discussion accross many threads for almost 4 years.

you are free to start your own general nibali thread and count how many airheads say he must be clean because he hasnt tested positive, has less than 5.9 watt output and because italians dont dope.

 

[Benotti69]

Yeah, people keep forgetting Nibali delivered his best climbing performances among known dopers, in the '09 Tour. Climbing better than Armstrong, Wiggins ... Where is Nibali's Clinic thread? But he's the forum's favourite rider, so I guess it wouldn't be accepted.

Have you bothered to search the clinic to see how much Nibali has been discussed?

 

[zigmeister]

I think Evans is a prime example of later age success. With the proper domestiques providing support in the mountains, plus an excellent time trialer for most of his career, it makes sense.

 

[Pentacycle]

Have you bothered to search the clinic to see how much Nibali has been discussed?

Nope...

 

[Netserk]

+Evans
+Wiggns

Evans showed he could podium in 2002.

Wiggo is another story.