Riis autobiography...

[ultimobici]

People have to be very careful when valuing past dopers opinions because you need to see their motives and what position they are in life before valuing their opinion. Riis is still very much involved with cycling and him saying that to get a result in a big race you had to dope is not an overly smart comment for current riders that are connected to him as it makes a mockery of his current team and past teams. I guess I need to have a deeper look at more of his comments on doping in his book. Would be an interesting read from an interesting person.

I have to agree. While I would take anything he says or writes about doping with a very large pinch of salt, I still would rather it is out in the open for all to see and examine/analyse.

 

[ergmonkey]

I look forward to reading Riis' book. In Danish. And then I look forward to discussing the many complex questions that it presents with other forum users who took the time to read the book.

 

[webvan]

Read the book and what I got from it regarding Fignon's Italian trip was that he was spent then not in the usual "twilight of career" way but more as a result of his acrimonious divorce from Guimard that had played out through 91. Couple that with the full bore rise of EPO by 93 and one can see that his comments regarding donkeys & thoroughbreds make perfect sense and that it is highly unlikely that he even tried EPO.

It is interesting that many of the top riders of the mid to late 80's had careers that look like the brakes went on at the same point in time yet they were all at or below their peak age. Lemond (30), Fignon (30), Mottet (29), Delion (Retired 28) & Eric Boyer (Retired 30). All except Delion were top 5 finishers in the Tours and/or Giros of the pre EPO era. Delion was the Maillot Blanc winner of the 1990 Tour. Yet their careers all seem to dry up at the same point, 1991/2. Begs the question, why? I would contend that they were either clean or unprepared to go down the EPO route with all the attendant risks.

All good points and that's also what I was inclined to think, a couple of things though :
- Until Armstrong came along, the "retirement age" for the top contenders was 32, Merckx, Hinault, Indurain, maybe just a coincidence but it seems they "burnt out" faster, arguably they raced a lot more, arguably too they could have kept going for a few more years, particularly Hinault.
- On the other hand it's hard to believe that the richest guys in the sport didn't know what was going on and were not offered the same "good stuff". For instance it's scary how Fignon just happened to take "speed" to go out training because Gallopin's wife was having a baby and he couldn't assist, and then he got popped in Holland a few days later. My point is that these guys "lived with" doping products of all sorts so transitioning to EPO was easy, it certainly was for Riis.

Anyway my original point was that I was curious whether he would discuss he "old style" vs "full scale" doping programs and confirm the theories we've been served so far by guys (Lemond and Fignon) who lost it in the early 90s and put this on account of other guys doping big time with dangerous stuff. Indurain's mentor complained about that after he petered out in the 1996 tour too, although it's hard to believe Indurain was able to fend off the mega dopers until that point without using any "hard stuff"...

 

[ultimobici]

All good points and that's also what I was inclined to think, a couple of things though :
- Until Armstrong came along, the "retirement age" for the top contenders was 32, Merckx, Hinault, Indurain, maybe just a coincidence but it seems they "burnt out" faster, arguably they raced a lot more, arguably too they could have kept going for a few more years, particularly Hinault.
- On the other hand it's hard to believe that the richest guys in the sport didn't know what was going on and were not offered the same "good stuff". For instance it's scray how Fignon just happened to take speed to go out training because Gallopin's wife was having a baby and he couldn't assist, and then he got popped in Holland a few days later. My point is that these guys "lived with" doping products of all sorts so transitioning to EPO was easy, it certainly was for Riis.

Anyway my original point was that I was curious whether he would discuss he "old style" vs "full scale" doping programs and confirm the theories we've been served so far by guys (Lemond and Fignon) who lost it in the early 90s and put this on account of other guys doping big time with dangerous stuff. Indurain's mentor complained about that after he petered out in the 1996 tour too, although it's hard to believe Indurain was able to fend off the mega dopers until that point without using any "hard stuff"...

Riis's transformation coincided with his move to Ariostea and linking up with Argentin. Up until then he was a competent equipier, but you'd have been laughed at for suggesting he was anything more.

As for Fignon, I got the impression that he was not prepared to go to something that required doctors etc. There was the spate of Dutch deaths in the early 90's to bear in mind too.

And, as someone pointed out in another thread, I think that the 89 Tour damaged Fignon's morale more than we might think so that when EPO fuelled riders cruised by in the mountains it was "easier" to just say "stuff this for a game of soldiers!"

 

[hrotha]

The perceived risk of EPO was much higher than that of other products. Remember lots of people actually died in the late 80s (of course, there's no proof any of them specifically died because of EPO, but what matters here is that EPO was perceived to have killed them). EPO was scary. Despite being a wonder drug which gave a massive advantage, we keep hearing of teams and riders not jumping on the wagon until 1993, 1994 or 1995. Of course at first it wasn't clear just how good EPO was, but that'd also be a reason why most veterans would have stayed away from EPO. Their old drugs had always worked fine for them after all.

 

[webvan]

...to help them "cope" and not "fly", although one has to wonder whether naturally gifted champs like Hinault, Lemond or Fignon would have won the TDF without taking "anything"...probably not, so at the end of the day it's not really any "better" than the hard drugs they were prompt to point out as the cause of their demise, particularly Lemond. The only difference it seems is that EPO gave "average" riders a chance. The question is whether Riis admit/confirm that?

 

[Magnus]

Is this a full autobiography? Or just a doping biography? If it's the former then I have no interest.

Because you're only interested in doping and not cycling?

 

[Christian]

I look forward to reading Riis' book. In Danish.

Good for you!

Is this a full autobiography? Or just a doping biography? If it's the former then I have no interest.

That '87 Vuelta poisoning story sounds pretty interesting though, might be worth a read

 

[roundabout]

Hmm, the book is supposedly 450 pages so there might be enough things worth reading.

 

[ergmonkey]

Good for you!

Low and behold, there are cyclingnews forum users who are still unwilling to get their panties in a bundle over a google translation or a third-generation mass media relaying of a de-contextualized quote...

 

[tubularglue]

I'll read the book

It'll bend my sense of reality
Something I am so quick to defend
Something I so rarely can trust

I learned to read,
then I read to learn

 

[Merckx index]

It is interesting that many of the top riders of the mid to late 80's had careers that look like the brakes went on at the same point in time yet they were all at or below their peak age. Lemond (30), Fignon (30), Mottet (29), Delion (Retired 28) & Eric Boyer (Retired 30). All except Delion were top 5 finishers in the Tours and/or Giros of the pre EPO era. Delion was the Maillot Blanc winner of the 1990 Tour. Yet their careers all seem to dry up at the same point, 1991/2. Begs the question, why? I would contend that they were either clean or unprepared to go down the EPO route with all the attendant risks.

To his great credit IMO, Lemond once said that had he been younger and just beginning his career when EPO became available, he would have been very tempted to use it. Even with no EPO, given his age and of course his gunshot wounds, he was probably looking at very few years left as a top contender, with no guarantee of winning any more Tours. Given the health risks of EPO, real or perceived, he might have felt it wasn't worth it.

 

[OneRaceWonder]

Primetime interview with Riis on danish tv tonight.

-Truly believes Contador didn't dope. Reporter made him look her in the eyes and promise...
-Wants Contador back after suspension

Well...I used to like the guy, but he is just full of it...all he cares about is winning, nomatter what the costs are.

 

[hrotha]

Primetime interview with Riis on danish tv tonight.

-Truly believes Contador didn't dope. Reporter made him look her in the eyes and promise...
-Wants Contador back after suspension

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g24Ct9oMZnQ

 

[flicker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g24Ct9oMZnQ

How did Contador get the intense scaring above his lip and chin?

 

[OneRaceWonder]

Lol.

Contador: "Si"

Crowd: "Bravo!!"

Wonder why that country is down!! Taking everything for granted...

 

[webvan]

More "hot stuff" in the Bio apparently : http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riis-reveals-he-advised-contador-over-chaingate

Riis had already put together a draft contract to sign the Spaniard when the incident occurred. On that stage, Schleck dropped his chain at a critical part on the climb of the Port de Bales, and was attacked by Contador, who rode into the maillot jaune and gained enough time on the stage to win the Tour de France.

That night, Riis received a text message on his phone from Contador, who seemed worried that the controversial attack might hurt negotiations. "I'm sorry about the situation. I attacked and went. Hope you understand," the text read as reported by sporten.dk.

Riis replied to Contador, saying that he made a mistake, and in a phone call advised him to apologize, which Contador did.

By the time the second rest day came around two days later, the contract with Contador had been finalized, and Riis told Contador that he felt that he could win all three Grand Tours in the same year.

 

[BotanyBay]

To his great credit IMO, Lemond once said that had he been younger and just beginning his career when EPO became available, he would have been very tempted to use it. Even with no EPO, given his age and of course his gunshot wounds, he was probably looking at very few years left as a top contender, with no guarantee of winning any more Tours. Given the health risks of EPO, real or perceived, he might have felt it wasn't worth it.

Read Greg's blog. He and his wife were woken in the middle of the night back in the early 90's by a phone call from the American wife of one of Greg's young Dutch teammates on PDM. She'd just discovered her husband was lying next to her, dead from an EPO overdose. Greg knew that the team was forcing the stuff on some of the riders. He didn't much care for that.

 

[ultimobici]

Read Greg's blog. He and his wife were woken in the middle of the night back in the early 90's by a phone call from the American wife of one of Greg's young Dutch teammates on PDM. She'd just discovered her husband was lying next to her, dead from an EPO overdose. Greg knew that the team was forcing the stuff on some of the riders. He didn't much care for that.

I think that's why he left PDM.

 

[JPM London]

"I thought that I had to race on equal footing with the others, there was no way around it. These were the conditions of my racing years. No one enticed me, it was my own choice…How it was then, so I was - back then. People must either take it or leave it…I am proud of my life, I'm proud of what I have done."

these are not the words of someone who believes in clean racing.

In what you're referencing I don't see that at all. I see a person who is not naive and don't care to beat around the bush about it. He basically says he saw the reality of the sport - and having made the conscious choice of competing in it he did so with everything it entailed.

He's not claiming he won, let's say, a handful of green jerseys only having "tried EPO once", no, he's being clear that his tour win took blood, sweat, tears and a lot of dope. It could not have been achieved without ALL of these.

People have to be very careful when valuing past dopers opinions because you need to see their motives and what position they are in life before valuing their opinion. Riis is still very much involved with cycling and him saying that to get a result in a big race you had to dope is not an overly smart comment for current riders that are connected to him as it makes a mockery of his current team and past teams. I guess I need to have a deeper look at more of his comments on doping in his book. Would be an interesting read from an interesting person.

I don't much care for your point about having to look closer at what past dopers say. What does it mean? That you DON'T have to look closer at what people who we presume to be clean says? Surely the statement covers what anybody says.

Neither do I follow your point about Riis's comment and current riders. I think you need to look at what is said as a comment on the past and what is said about the present. His being forthright about racing in the nineties is not a comment on his own team or any current rider whether his or belonging to another team. Don't forget he was also one of the pioneers behind internal team testing. Now, that, you can say about what you want. Obviously a lot of people distrust his motives behind the testing saying it was either a simple PR stunt or used for and not against doping. But stating that the era in which he himself rode was dirty only shows he's not hiding the obvious (anymore)...
Personally I take more issue with someone like Brailsford who's take on anti-doping is that nobody is allowed to have a past. Sorry mate, but some of the people you have (had) working for you do actually have a history that goes back a few years, probably with all that it entails, and them just saying they didn't and you believing them is not going to change that fact. That is either naive or hypocritical double standards...

 

[Benotti69]

In what you're referencing I don't see that at all. I see a person who is not naive and don't care to beat around the bush about it. He basically says he saw the reality of the sport - and having made the conscious choice of competing in it he did so with everything it entailed.

He's not claiming he won, let's say, a handful of green jerseys only having "tried EPO once", no, he's being clear that his tour win took blood, sweat, tears and a lot of dope. It could not have been achieved without ALL of these.
..........................

i dont doubt that anyone in the pro peloton has to train and work hard. What i feel from the above statement from Riis is he doesn't say anything about doping being the wrong way to win. Why? cos as Fignon said, he's a donkey that could never have won without loads of EPO. You think as a DS he is going to tell a potential winner not to take dope like him an win????

He's part of the problem in pro cycling.

 

[BotanyBay]

BR is like JB. Always looking for those willing to do what it takes to win. And he knows from personal experience what it currently takes. It takes an (already identified as talented) guy who is willing to shell-out his money to underground doctors and take calculated risks.

He takes his talent from the existing stock of the D1 peloton. Talent is what brings them to D1. Riis is only unique in that he absolutely doesn't give a **** about his public image. He's already proven that the cold hard cash numbers will keep his business model in motion. If he can win the Tour, his sponsorship value is worth more, and not even AC's current baggage will scare them (sponsors) away if he can win and get them the 75MM worth of press hits.

 

[Darryl Webster]

i dont doubt that anyone in the pro peloton has to train and work hard. What i feel from the above statement from Riis is he doesn't say anything about doping being the wrong way to win. Why? cos as Fignon said, he's a donkey that could never have won without loads of EPO. You think as a DS he is going to tell a potential winner not to take dope like him an win????

He's part of the problem in pro cycling.

He`s absalutly one of the worst examples.
I tell my non cycling pals about the tale of Riis, the donkey turned TDF winner and self confessed big style doper just a few years later being one of the sports best known and succesful DS`s and they look at me with incedulity and shake there heads in disbelief.
It`s like appointing bank robbers to take care of banks!...oh yeh...I forgot...that`s very close to how banks are actualy ran these days!

 

[JPM London]

i dont doubt that anyone in the pro peloton has to train and work hard. What i feel from the above statement from Riis is he doesn't say anything about doping being the wrong way to win. Why? cos as Fignon said, he's a donkey that could never have won without loads of EPO. You think as a DS he is going to tell a potential winner not to take dope like him an win????

He's part of the problem in pro cycling.

I see your point and I can see how you'd think and conclude how you do - when taken in context of that just that quote and assuming that the quote hadn't been cut leaving out other points.

However it's my clear understanding of what he has said in general and over time that he does indeed agree that doping is wrong and that what he did back then was indeed wrong, but that on the other hand he's not shying away from how things were back then; if you wanted to win it was a given and he's also stating the feeling they had back then, that they weren't doing anything wrong.

In that sense he's probably one of the ex-riders most honest about his time in the peloton and I don't see a problem with him today...

 

[Benotti69]

He`s absalutly one of the worst examples.
I tell my non cycling pals about the tale of Riis, the donkey turned TDF winner and self confessed big style doper just a few years later being one of the sports best known and succesful DS`s and they look at me with incedulity and shake there heads in disbelief.
It`s like appointing bank robbers to take care of banks!...oh yeh...I forgot...that`s very close to how banks are actualy ran these days!

that's it! except in cycling everyone knows the bank is gonna be robbed and by whom. they just leave their guns at the door with Fat Pat, go in do the business and tip Pat on the way out before he returns the weapons