Rio Olympics 2016

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

What's the reason world records fall so easily in swimming?

Well, other than PEDs, obviously, swimming is a sport that may lend itself to big advances through technique. In cycling, the big factor that has to be overcome, at least on the flat, is air resistance. In swimming, it's the resistance of the surface of the pool. If you go completely underwater, you can move faster--hence the rules on how far you can stay underwater on the dive and on turns--but you can also move faster if you can get above the surface. Therefore, anything that improves buoyancy without adversely affecting performance in other ways can improve times.

But it should also be noted that not all records fall that quickly. The winning time in the men's FS relay last night was well off the record they set in 2008. In fact, in London, only one WR was set in men's swimming. Most of the current WR were set at the WC in 2009, when I believe those special suits were allowed.

This is very true. Kids of 11/12 years of age now are being taught different things to just 3 or 4 years ago, as there are advancements and improvements in technique. Then again, you have people like Paltrinieri whose technique is effectively what every coach tries to dissuade, yet wins races with 14:34. To your last point, 12 (10 in the Rome Worlds) of the men's WRs were set in the summer of 2009, and one other in December 2009, but I don't know whether they had a swimsuit or not. The women however have only 6 set in 2009, 5 at the Rome Worlds. So clearly the male swimmers have had less of a drastic improvement than the women. Peaty, for example, is blessed with an amazing technique with which he seems to glide through the water far more effortlessly than the other competitors and an immense strength, much more than everyone else. Taking away PEDs, this explains why he is so much better. Ledecky's technique and strength is not that much better than everyone else's, so she is more of a mystery perhaps.

You also have more phenomenons in swimming, like Sun Yang and Ledecky in freestyle; Phelps, Hosszu and Lochte in the IM+chosen power stroke; Peaty in breaststroke; and Sjostrom in the short distance power strokes. Peaty in breaststroke is like, say, Bolt in the 100m and 200m: domination but in only one sphere of the sport. This is repeated in other sports, but the domination through multiple distances or over many strokes and disciplines is more unique to swimming. Phelps' 19 golds have come in 4 different disciplines: IM, free, butterfly and sh*t ton of relays. The relays are easy to explain, the US have more collective strength, and butterfly is his best stroke. Free uses similar(ish) muscles to fly, and Phelps was excellent at balancing his greater strength for less good technique, while also exploiting his better underwater ability to beat rivals. In the IM he combined these two to just beat everyone else. So Phelps' domination can IMO be explained with logic, however weird it is. Lochte was a free specialist who was decent in backstroke, and very consistent through all his events. 18 WC golds explain that. One of the best IM swimmers to have lived. Hosszu is the first inexplicable one, because she literally is the best in the world in 3 strokes. In short course and long course WCs, she has won a gold or silver in free, IM, fly and backstroke. At Rio she has won IM and backstroke already. I do not know how it is possible to be good in so many strokes. Fly and freestyle as well as backstroke and freestyle is common, but both fly and backstroke medals is extremely rare. Sjostrom does all three as well, but her backstroke, while having the 100m NR, is far below the best. She is like the Phelps of the women, minus the IM. Then come Sun Yang and Ledecky, the male and female equivalents (interesting how you got doping claims for Sun yang but not for Ledecky, no?). the do everything from sprint events to long distance events. Ledecky is even better than Sun Yang at this, winning all four last year. Sun Yang has only ever managed 3. go figure.

 

[Merckx index]

Good post. Actually, Phelps in his prime was world best or near world best in three strokes, too, as only Piersoll was better—maybe—in the 200 back. He just couldn’t compete there because of scheduling conflicts, and that being the case, he stopped working on it so much. So Hosszu is following that, and as I pointed out upthread, she has a shot of winning five individual events, just like Phelps at Beijing.

If a swimmer is world best or near world best in two strokes, it will usually be FS and fly (Spitz, Gross, Biondi before Phelps), after that FS and back (Naber, Lochte). So I don’t see it’s being a stretch that once in a while someone is best or near best at all three. I’ve never heard of someone being best at breaststroke and any other stroke, though. Maybe that would be the next frontier.

Sun and Ledecky have stretched the distances a little, but neither is a sprint champ. It’s not uncommon for someone to be world best at 400 and 800 or 1500, they’ve just extended it down to 200. That is extraordinary, but neither is a sprinter who could compete at 100, let alone 50. At Athens, Thorpe won the 200 and 400 and took bronze in the 100. Plus at a WC he won at 800, though that is not an Olympic distance.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Good post. Actually, Phelps in his prime was world best or near world best in three strokes, too, as only Piersoll was better—maybe—in the 200 back. He just couldn’t compete there because of scheduling conflicts, and that being the case, he stopped working on it so much. So Hosszu is following that, and as I pointed out upthread, she has a shot of winning five individual events, just like Phelps at Beijing.

If a swimmer is world best or near world best in two strokes, it will usually be FS and fly (Spitz, Gross, Biondi before Phelps), after that FS and back (Naber, Lochte). So I don’t see it’s being a stretch that once in a while someone is best or near best at all three. I’ve never heard of someone being best at breaststroke and any other stroke, though. Maybe that would be the next frontier.

Sun and Ledecky have stretched the distances a little, but neither is a sprint champ. It’s not uncommon for someone to be world best at 400 and 800 or 1500, they’ve just extended it down to 200. That is extraordinary, but neither is a sprinter who could compete at 100, let alone 50. At Athens, Thorpe won the 200 and 400 and took bronze in the 100. Plus at a WC he won at 800, though that is not an Olympic distance.

Well to be correct it is not really FS (freestyle) the stroke actually is the Front Crawl. FS just become a incorrect use of a synonym for the Front Crawl because it is the most common. Technically they could swim any style during FS events.
I realize we all understand what your post meant. For some swimmers it does matter. YMMV.

 

[BullsFan22]

Can one be as competitive in freestyle AND backstroke, for example? Or is that not possible at this level? And by not possible, I mean level of competition in both, different training required, conflicts of scheduling (not enough rest), etc. I am by no means a swimming expert, though I've watched swimming forever and I love to swim (actually consider myself pretty good for an athlete that grew up doing different sports-winter sport, mainly) and always wondered about different combinations. Obviously you have the IM and team medley's so that can be taken care off, but I mostly mean individual/separated freestyle/backstroke events.

 

[Brullnux]

Can one be as competitive in freestyle AND backstroke, for example? Or is that not possible at this level? And by not possible, I mean level of competition in both, different training required, conflicts of scheduling (not enough rest), etc. I am by no means a swimming expert, though I've watched swimming forever and I love to swim (actually consider myself pretty good for an athlete that grew up doing different sports-winter sport, mainly) and always wondered about different combinations. Obviously you have the IM and team medley's so that can be taken care off, but I mostly mean individual/separated freestyle/backstroke events.

Yes, Missy Franklin is (was) a good example. At the 2013 worlds she won the 100m and 200m backstroke, as well as the 200m freestyle. Emily Seebohm also, although her backstroke has always been head and shoulders better than anything else she produces. However, it is much less common that fly/free combo, especially among the men.

 

[djpbaltimore]

For men, Matt Grevars of the USA won the 100m back and took 3rd in the 100m free in 2012.

 

[Merckx index]

Wow, breaking news. Hosszu just pulled out of the 200 fly heat at the last moment (leaving an empty lane for that heat). Apparently decided her schedule of five events was too much (unless she tested positive???). Assuming she just decided to cut back on her schedule, she will be swimming the 200 IM final tonight. Doing that after swimming the 200 fly twice, in the preliminary heats and the semis, is a lot.

Again, we see just how difficult swimming five individual events is. It's more than being good enough to have a shot at winning all those events. You have to conserve energy as much as possible.

On the FS/back double:

Naber won Gold in both backstroke events at Montreal, took a silver in the 200 FS, and was a member of the winning 4 x 200 FS relay.

Lochte has won the Gold in the 200 back multiple times at the WC, and at the Beijing Olympics, along with a bronze at London (when he may have been trying to save something for another final less than an hour later). He won the 200 FS at one WC, finished fourth in that event in London, and has been a member of the Gold medal winning 4 x 200 FS relay multiple times in both the WC and Olympics.

Phelps might have won Gold in both FS and back, if he had just blown off the fly and concentrated solely on the other two strokes. But there would have been no point to that, given how good he was in the fly, and that the schedule for that was more compatible with his IM races than the schedule for the backstroke.

 

[Brullnux]

BBC were right then, the threat of coming tired into the final with an inform Siobhan Marie o'Connor was enough for Hosszu to drop out of the 200m fly, clearly she wants the IM double more than a medal in butterfly.

 

[Red Rick]

Nevermind

 

[BullsFan22]

Typical Kuznetsova match was on display. Wins the first set and instead of keeping her form and closing it out in the 2nd she loses a tight one and proceeds to lose the match altogether. A little surprising she lost 7-5 in the third as well. It happens often that if you are in control of a match, and you fail to close it out, the next set you lose it easily after you are mentally defeated.

Good for the Brits. At least someone else beside Murray can win some singles matches.

 

[Flamin]

Well well, Croenen the first Belgian in an Olympic individual final since Atlanta 1996. Timmers possibly next tonight/in the morning in the 100m freestyle.

 

[SeriousSam]

It appears Ledeckey is quite the outlier.

But the king of outlier performances comes from Great Britain's Peaty. So much better than everyone ever. Amazing.

 

[The Hitch]

Would be interesting to compare that to other ridiculous wrs like bolt and radcliffe

 

[Merckx index]

Very interesting article on Ledecky:

In many of her biggest races, Katie Ledecky is leading before she even touches the water.

In the 800-meter freestyle finals at the 2012 London Olympics, which produced her first Olympic gold medal; in six of her nine individual swims at the 2015 world championships, where she pulled off an unprecedented sweep of the 200 through 1,500 freestyles; in the 800 free finals at the 2014 Pan Pacific championships, a world record; and the finals of both the 400 and 800 free at 2012 U.S. Olympic trials — in all of those races, and in many others, Ledecky was the first swimmer off the blocks, her “reaction time” (the interval between the starter’s gun and the instant her feet leave the blocks) fastest in the field, at anywhere from .66 to .73 of a second.

I thought they were faster than that.

“This is a one-in-a-billion human being,” said Washington Capitals and Wizards owner Ted Leonsis, a longtime friend and associate of Ledecky’s family. “She has a very special family, and she’s an incredibly gifted person — with a high, high self-actualization and self-awareness, otherworldly good instincts and intelligence, a gifted physiognomy, plus an incredible drive to be the best. And it’s all natural.

Usain Bolt is occasionally beaten. Serena Williams doesn’t win every Grand Slam title. Stephen Curry goes 5 for 20 now and again. But Ledecky has swum in 12 individual finals at major international meets, and has never lost.

“She’s the greatest athlete in the world today by far,” said Michael J. Joyner, an anesthesiologist and researcher for the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., specializing in human performance and physiology. “She’s dominating by the widest margin in international sport, winning by 1 or 2 percent. If [a runner] won the 10,000 meters by that wide a margin, they’d win by 100 meters. One or 2 percent in the Tour de France, over about 80 hours of racing, would be 30 or 40 minutes. It’s just absolutely remarkable.”

“We’re fortunate to be living in this age in our sport, the Ledecky era,” said Chuck Wielgus, executive director of USA Swimming. “I don’t think we’ve ever seen anybody like Katie before. And I think in the future we’re going to look back, and the sport’s history will be divided into pre-Katie and post-Katie. She’ll be this iconic figure by which all future distance and middle-distance swimmers will be measured.”

Really? She’s more dominant than Phelps? In one stroke, yes, but being good in a second stroke counts, too. I might regard her in Phelps’ class if she can add the 100m to the longer distances. She’s working on it.

Her mechanics, common among male swimmers but almost unheard of among women, is often described as a “gallop” or a “giddy-up” stroke, or is said to have a “hitch.” Ledecky has called it a “loping” stroke.

Essentially, instead of a steady, metronomic beat — left, right, left, right — her stroke is syncopated: short left, long right, short left, long right. She breathes almost exclusively to the right side.

“Her stroke is like a man’s stroke,” said Connor Jaeger, a 2012 Olympian and the silver medalist in the 1,500 free at the 2015 world championships. “I mean that in a positive way. She swims like a man.”…

If the best female swimmer in the world swims one way, it would make sense for others to try to copy her. But it isn’t that easy. The gallop stroke requires tons of core strength, the sort many male swimmers possess but few females do.

“We found that it’s a very hip-driven stroke, and I have really good rotation and rhythm with my hip rotation, and I get a lot of power out of my hips,” Ledecky said. “So that stroke kind of maximizes that.”

When Bruce Gemmell first began coaching Ledecky in the fall of 2012 — taking over after Suguiyama left for a job at the University of California following the London Games — he was surprised to find out she couldn’t do three unassisted pull-ups or run a nine-minute mile. When he had Ledecky undergo a battery of physical-assessment tests at the U.S. Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, one of the first sentences of the opening summary, according to Gemmell, referred to her as “remarkably unremarkable.”

“She has to have enormous lung capacity,” mused Jack Roach, USA Swimming’s consultant for athlete and coach relations. “But we don’t measure that. You don’t really need to.”

Hmmm…Either that, or…

“There are days she fails catastrophically,” he said. “She fails in practice more than anybody in her [training] group, because she’ll start out like, ‘This is the pace I need to swim in the race, so I need to replicate it in practice.’ And she’ll go six repeats like that, and the tank goes empty and she just falls off. But you know what? She’ll come back the next day and try it again. And on the third day, she’ll nail it. And she’s been doing this since the first day I walked on the deck with her.”

Stroke rate is especially important in the first 100 meters .

“Other swimmers, they either lose [their stroke rate] or they don’t have the confidence to start out with it,” he said. “You’ve seen her dive in, and by the time the race is 100 meters in, it’s over. Why can she do that? She can do that because she practices it — over and over and over again. Every day, twice a day a lot of days.”

People who know Ledecky — who know of her solid Catholic upbringing, her humility outside of the pool and especially her intense training regimen — scoff at any notion of her using performance-enhancing drugs.

“I would stake my life that she’s not doping,” said Rowdy Gaines, a three-time Olympic gold medal winner and now a commentator for NBC. “There’s no way. It’s not in her vocabulary. She just has a gift.”

Ledecky’s career trajectory shows none of the telltale jumps that might indicate PED use. According to Mario J. Costa, a professor of sports sciences who studies the biophysics of swimming at the Polytechnic Institute of Guarda in Portugal, Ledecky’s annual improvement in the 800 free between ages 11 and 16 — the age when she first started swimming distance events through the age when she set her first world records — averaged about 3 percent, except for a spike of 9.94 percent between 12 and 13, explained by the onset of puberty.

Lately, however, Ledecky no longer has to pretend to be an elite sprinter. In the past two years, she has been strategically creeping downward in distance, becoming a worldwide force first in the 200 — which she began racing seriously in 2014 and quickly came to dominate — and lately in the 100, as well. The career-best 53.75 she swam in the latter, in Austin in January, ranks second among American women this year and ties for 12th in the world, putting her in position to make the U.S. 4x100-meter freestyle relay for Rio.

The training you need to do a 1,500 well is only going to hurt you at the shorter distances,” he said. “Your physiological system that helps you sprint is going to be hurt the more distance training you do. It’s not that one is being neglected; it’s actually being counteracted. For her to do 100, 200, 400, 800 and 1,500, with all these different physiological systems, it’s crazy.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/how-katie-ledecky-became-better-at-swimming-than-anyone-is-at-anything/2016/06/23/01933534-2f31-11e6-9b37-42985f6a265c_story.html

 

[Brullnux]

'Great core strength' and 'can't do three unassisted pull ups' seems to add up.

About half the 'hitch'... The best male freestyle swimmer in the world, Sun Yang, doesn't use it. Jaegar and the article make it seem like it is the secret to her success, but if you look at the 400m final you can already see many other of the women using it, maybe to a lesser extent and less pronounced but they still use it. It really doesn't give you that much, and certainly isn't the reason why she wins so many races.

 

[movingtarget]

Olympics Ticket Sales

http://www.news.com.au/sport/olympics/rio-2016-olympics-plagued-by-empty-seats-at-major-venues/news-story/1023e94184000811b195c259feee31d9

 

[Robert5091]

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/olympic...pics-media-accommodation-20160810-gqpntj.html
Man impaled on fence at Rio Olympics media accommodation
Photos show the man with a large spike from a fence stuck in his chest near a temporary laundry tent outside the building.

He was alive when rushed to hospital in the early hours of Wednesday morning (local time). It not clear whether he worked at the Games.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re:

'Great core strength' and 'can't do three unassisted pull ups' seems to add up.

About half the 'hitch'... The best male freestyle swimmer in the world, Sun Yang, doesn't use it. Jaegar and the article make it seem like it is the secret to her success, but if you look at the 400m final you can already see many other of the women using it, maybe to a lesser extent and less pronounced but they still use it. It really doesn't give you that much, and certainly isn't the reason why she wins so many races.

It's always like this when a dominant athletes emerges. Lots of little stories and anecdotes about how they're so special wrt technique or training, doing things no one else does. Almost always ***.

 

[RedheadDane]

I'm tangentially follow a few things.

Swimming: One of our best shots at medals. So far it's been 2012 all over; close but no cigar!

Rowing: Well, when your country has a boat known as "the gold four" it's gonna get some coverage in the media.

Handball: Hopefully they guys'll do better than at the European championships...

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

Olympics Ticket Sales

http://www.news.com.au/sport/olympics/rio-2016-olympics-plagued-by-empty-seats-at-major-venues/news-story/1023e94184000811b195c259feee31d9

I read something similar: many Brasilians can't afford the tickets, and less people from other countries made the trip than was expected (money, security, and health concerns...).

EDIT: it was suggested that if they sold the unsold tickets for <$100 Reals, more locals would attend.

 

[Merckx index]

We’ve been treated to some really competitive races in the pool the past couple of nights. Last night, all three of the individual events were close (< 0.4 second, and the 200 fly was the closest in history) and each was won by a swimmer who has a claim to being the best in the world. Swimming doesn’t get much better than this.

LOL, I was watching the 4 x 200, and I kept thinking, who is that old white-haired guy? I finally figured out it was Lochte, who has dyed (or died) his hair. I hadn’t realized he’s only in two events, the other one being the 200 IM. Though he’s considered one of the greatest swimmers of all time after Phelps, he’s won only two Olympic Golds in individual events in his entire career. Seems hard to believe that someone that good would have won so few Golds.

By the way, what’s the story with Peaty? Dominates in the 100m, and doesn’t even swim the 200m? I can understand he’s more of a sprinter, but if you beat everyone in the world by that much at 100m, surely you’re one of the best two from your country—not really a swimming power—at 200m?

 

[Brullnux]

Peaty is worse than Willis; in the Commonwealth Games he actually came 4th, behind 2 Scots and Willis. He (comparatively) isn't that good in the 200m. UK is the new power in breaststroke

 

[SeriousSam]

Is there some biomechanical analogy between the breaststroke and exercising whilst seated?

 

[SeriousSam]

oh dear is sabre fencing terrible. turning this off now and instead going to watch pirates of the caribbean

 

[Atwood]

Re:

We’ve been treated to some really competitive races in the pool the past couple of nights. Last night, all three of the individual events were close (< 0.4 second, and the 200 fly was the closest in history) and each was won by a swimmer who has a claim to being the best in the world. Swimming doesn’t get much better than this.

LOL, I was watching the 4 x 200, and I kept thinking, who is that old white-haired guy? I finally figured out it was Lochte, who has dyed (or died) his hair. I hadn’t realized he’s only in two events, the other one being the 200 IM. Though he’s considered one of the greatest swimmers of all time after Phelps, he’s won only two Olympic Golds in individual events in his entire career. Seems hard to believe that someone that good would have won so few Golds.

By the way, what’s the story with Peaty? Dominates in the 100m, and doesn’t even swim the 200m? I can understand he’s more of a sprinter, but if you beat everyone in the world by that much at 100m, surely you’re one of the best two from your country—not really a swimming power—at 200m?

LOL, I did the same thing, only for me the puzzle was worse/prolonged. Although I rarely watch or pay much attention to swimming, Lochte and especially Phelps are athletes I can recognize. But I was completely puzzled why someone's old dad or coach was lining up to swim! Poor guy. Someone help him back to the locker room. :lol: