Rock & Roll will never die, but rim brakes are on the outs.

[Bustedknuckle]

I see the 'can't teach an old dog new tricks' concept is still in play. Hey, why don't we just go back to stopping with our feet like Fred Flintstone style, you Luddites will have your day, right?!

Happy Retirement Bustedknuckle! Your party was a blast!!

Yer back!!!!

Thanks Giuseppe..loving the retirement but wish it would stop snowing.. I think I have your email..I'll send you a pic of my Merckx MXLeader I just put EPS on...

 

[Bustedknuckle]

You make it sound as if all disc brakes ware found wanting at low temperatures, but the linked article says nothing of the sort. It is not a general repudiation of disc brakes, just of SRAM's execution of them.

Yep, if ya gotta do discs on a road/cross..Di2 and wet discs..makes sram, even when they worked when warm, seem like they were made for a Junior High science project...same for MTB..XT, XTR, even Deore are light years better all round than sram..

 

[Master50]

Cyclocross riders are discovering problems with disc brakes at low temperatures:
http://www.cxmagazine.com/sram-recall-hydraulic-brakes-replacement-policy-bb7

The low temperature problem with SRAM brakes is specific to that model. seal material apparently shrunk just enough to allow brake fluid to pass the seals.

There was no issue with any of their MTB systems and the road brake problem is fixed now. Too fast to market without enough testing.

I have used my disk brakes on many MTBS in below 0 conditions. My car has been driven in minus 20 without issue.

This SRAM thing was poor engineering.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

The low temperature problem with SRAM brakes is specific to that model. seal material apparently shrunk just enough to allow brake fluid to pass the seals.

There was no issue with any of their MTB systems and the road brake problem is fixed now. Too fast to market without enough testing.

I have used my disk brakes on many MTBS in below 0 conditions. My car has been driven in minus 20 without issue.

This SRAM thing was poor engineering.

Have seen about 4 cases of Specialized carbon full sus MTB and sram brake issues...shudder like ya read about..sram points at Spec-ed(soft rear end), spec-ed points at sram..poor caliper/disc siffness...bet most Spec-Ed MTB full sus will be shimano for 2014...after talking to each, sram sent new calipers and rotors...still shudders, squeals, doesn't stop well.

 

[Master50]

Have seen about 4 cases of Specialized carbon full sus MTB and sram brake issues...shudder like ya read about..sram points at Spec-ed(soft rear end), spec-ed points at sram..poor caliper/disc siffness...bet most Spec-Ed MTB full sus will be shimano for 2014...after talking to each, sram sent new calipers and rotors...still shudders, squeals, doesn't stop well.

Fair enough. I am a fan of XT brakes. In truth I have never owned any SRAM drive train or Brakes. Almost went grip shift once but that is as close as I got. Shimano off road and campy on road, except I think if we get a tandem we will go with Ultegra Di2 with Hydraulic Disk brakes

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Fair enough. I am a fan of XT brakes. In truth I have never owned any SRAM drive train or Brakes. Almost went grip shift once but that is as close as I got. Shimano off road and campy on road, except I think if we get a tandem we will go with Ultegra Di2 with Hydraulic Disk brakes

Good choice for tandem, particularly wet discs..unless Campagnolo has EPS/Wet discs by then..calipers probably be Formula..hopefully enough wire length to get all the way with EPS.

 

[dsut4392]

Have seen about 4 cases of Specialized carbon full sus MTB and sram brake issues...shudder like ya read about..sram points at Spec-ed(soft rear end), spec-ed points at sram..poor caliper/disc siffness...bet most Spec-Ed MTB full sus will be shimano for 2014...after talking to each, sram sent new calipers and rotors...still shudders, squeals, doesn't stop well.

Spec-Ed never seem to have had a problem with speccing crappy parts before, so why would they worry now? They'll continue to spec whatever looks best on the balance sheet while still looking good in the showroom
3 out of 4 friends who bought 2007 stumpy FSRs had rear wheels fall apart, 2 of the 4 had their fox triad shock fail, and 3 of 4 had premature/unusual/excessive stanchion wear on their fox float forks (there were a huge number of these bikes on local trails as they were on-sold cheaply after the Mark Webber Challenge). OEM parts with slightly different spec to what comes in retail packaging...specced down to a price, or just poorly assembled?
A couple of friends have more recently bought 2012 Epic S-works, and in less than a year both have taco'd front wheels in very minor off-trail excursions, one has blown the rear shock, one seized dropper post (the release mechanism is corroded), and one broken formula carbon brake lever the dealer can't source parts for. Neither of these guys are racers or hard core, they are new MTBers who like expensive toys.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

A lot of the nay-saying in this thread reminds me of the friction shifting crowd's objections to dual control, back in the day.

Disc brakes are the preeminent arresting system in use on wheeled vehicles today. Their reliability, durability and braking authority are beyond reproach. It can only be a matter of time (and R&D $$$) until engineers hit on a blend of design and employment compromises that will give it mass market appeal to roadies.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

A lot of the nay-saying in this thread reminds me of the friction shifting crowd's objections to dual control, back in the day.

Disc brakes are the preeminent arresting system in use on wheeled vehicles today. Their reliability, durability and braking authority are beyond reproach. It can only be a matter of time (and R&D $$$) until engineers hit on a blend of design and employment compromises that will give it mass market appeal to roadies.

If that were true, rear derailleurs would have been gone long ago.

 

[Master50]

Good choice for tandem, particularly wet discs..unless Campagnolo has EPS/Wet discs by then..calipers probably be Formula..hopefully enough wire length to get all the way with EPS.

I have seen a Colnago C59 disk and their hydraulic solution with Campy does not pass visual inspection. Shimano's hydraulic solution looks great and hydraulic brake lines can be as long as necessary. I prefer Campy brifters to shimano but until they have a full hydraulic solution I would go Shimano. There is a bigger challenge getting the gearing right. No electric shifting for a front triple but I hear there are modifications tandem builders do to rear derrallieurs to get them to work with a 32 cog so the bike can go 2 chainrings and still have a gear low enough for climbs.
Easy to find front wheels with 180 mm disks too

 

[dsut4392]

If that were true, rear derailleurs would have been gone long ago.

Are you saying everyone should be using internal gear hubs, or something else?

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Are you saying everyone should be using internal gear hubs, or something else?

'Should'?- nope, nor 'should' they be using hydro disc brakes..overkill, both.

WHY take a simple, reliable, cheap, light braking or gearing option and replace it with a complicated, heavier, more expensive system?

Rohloff 14 speed hubs are foolproof, but a poor choice.

Like paddle shifters on cars...keen and 'essential' for that WRX you bought but not really needed for that trip down to the Krogers.

 

[winkybiker]

If that were true, rear derailleurs would have been gone long ago.

Yeah, I agree. Bicycles aren't other vehicles. For racing and "performance" cycling the #1 priority is efficiency. So weight trumps convenience, low rolling resistance trumps comfort, efficiency trumps low maintenance etc...

So in spite of maintenance burdens on external chains and derailleurs we don't have internal hubs or drivetrain covers. (In fact even on motorbikes, virtually all race bikes use chains rather than the heavier, less efficient shaft and gear drive.)

Rim brakes are easily "good enough" so until discs offer a performance advantage (lighter or more aero) you won't see them popular on race bikes (marketing notwithstanding). For all-weather touring and commuting discs make more sense.

Even in mountainbiking, once marketing was able to move away from X-country racing as the main selling activity (to DH, freeride, slopestyle etc..), the pro-racers nearly all ditched their heavy, inefficient full-sussers and went back to hardtails - because they were faster. It must have killed them in the past to be forced to ride slower bikes for "marketing" purposes.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Yeah, I agree. Bicycles aren't other vehicles. For racing and "performance" cycling the #1 priority is efficiency. So weight trumps convenience, low rolling resistance trumps comfort, efficiency trumps low maintenance etc...

So in spite of maintenance burdens on external chains and derailleurs we don't have internal hubs or drivetrain covers. (In fact even on motorbikes, virtually all race bikes use chains rather than the heavier, less efficient shaft and gear drive.)

Rim brakes are easily "good enough" so until discs offer a performance advantage (lighter or more aero) you won't see them popular on race bikes (marketing notwithstanding). For all-weather touring and commuting discs make more sense.

Even in mountainbiking, once marketing was able to move away from X-country racing as the main selling activity (to DH, freeride, slopestyle etc..), the pro-racers nearly all ditched their heavy, inefficient full-sussers and went back to hardtails - because they were faster. It must have killed them in the past to be forced to ride slower bikes for "marketing" purposes.

Agree and I 'heard' that a certain titanium frame builder in CO may evolve their MTB frames to either hard tail or 'soft tail', since the full squish market is really shrinking, particularly with 29er and 27.5, big wheels.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

The same physics as applies to the TGV as applies to the bicycle. Discs make for better brakes. That it might be overkill is irrelevant as the equipment 21st Century bicyclists are buying is more likely to be determined by the latest trend or fashion than by logic. Voltaire (and Gen. Sergey Gorshkov) might argue that rim brakes are "good enough," but today's lot obviously believe that where better exists, "good enough" isn't.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

The same physics as applies to the TGV as applies to the bicycle. Discs make for better brakes. That it might be overkill is irrelevant as the equipment 21st Century bicyclists are buying is more likely to be determined by the latest trend or fashion than by logic. Voltaire (and Gen. Sergey Gorshkov) might argue that rim brakes are "good enough," but today's lot obviously believe that where better exists, "good enough" isn't.

The Soviets were always into 'quantity over quality', in ships and in aircraft. It wasn't until Belenko defected did the west see what a unrefined POS the Mig-25 was....and there have been more than a few underway, Nuke accidents aboard Soviet Nuke subs..lastly, the AK-47...not accurate, not light but throw it in a vat of mud, swish around, take it out and fire it....

 

[dsut4392]

Agree and I 'heard' that a certain titanium frame builder in CO may evolve their MTB frames to either hard tail or 'soft tail', since the full squish market is really shrinking, particularly with 29er and 27.5, big wheels.

"Really shrinking?" If you're talking XC racer weight weenie types sure. But dare I suggest that the market demographic for weight-weenie XC bikes (let alone US-built titanium frames) is probably not representative of the MTB market in general, let alone the "full squish" market? I see fewer and fewer hardtails on the trails as the years go by, with the migration to full-suspension only marginally slowed by those oddballs who choose the extra squish of a fatbike instead.

 

[jennifer]

mountain bikers never die thats really

 

[Aapjes]

The Soviets were always into 'quantity over quality', in ships and in aircraft.[...].lastly, the AK-47...not accurate, not light but throw it in a vat of mud, swish around, take it out and fire it....

Reliability is quality too. I think it's unfair to characterize the AK as 'quantity over quality.'

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Reliability is quality too. I think it's unfair to characterize the AK as 'quantity over quality.'

Stalin, "quantity has a quality all it's own"

AK is very inaccurate, fairly heavy and the guys in boots would rather carry more rounds for the same weight...556 caliber, M-16 series, not as big a punch but lighter, faster round. AK far cheaper to make also. BUT Soviet mindset..Mig series, SU series, T-72, T-80, etc...

BUT for rifles or aircraft or tanks, 'a hamburger in any package is still a hamburger'.........it's the operator...Soviets, Russians...average equipment, average operators, HUGE numbers..

 

[richwagmn]

Good on Shimano for not making their mech/hydro lever look like SRAMs. It's hard to tell it's a hydro lever at all.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gallery/article/shimano-105-5800-201415-groupset-first-look-40450/28/

 

[King Boonen]

Agree and I 'heard' that a certain titanium frame builder in CO may evolve their MTB frames to either hard tail or 'soft tail', since the full squish market is really shrinking, particularly with 29er and 27.5, big wheels.

Sorry, but this is the opposite of what is happening. Maybe the roadies who ride some trails in the winter are going 29HT but not the amateur riders, especially with Enduro being the fastest growing discipline.

 

[Master50]

Sorry, but this is the opposite of what is happening. Maybe the roadies who ride some trails in the winter are going 29HT but not the amateur riders, especially with Enduro being the fastest growing discipline.

Bought a Full squish 29er last year. Went for comfort on my XC bike. Thought about hard tail but I'll take the weight penalty now instead of later. Mind you it is only 4 and 4 so not a deep squish. Where do these terms come from?

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Good on Shimano for not making their mech/hydro lever look like SRAMs. It's hard to tell it's a hydro lever at all.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gallery/article/shimano-105-5800-201415-groupset-first-look-40450/28/

Once again, unlike spam, who see a 'nitch' and throw all their limited expertise into a product that the consumer then tests, shimano takes their time, sees if there really is a market, then design and build something that is refined and good-er looking.

Like 10s MTB, like wet discs, like mechanical road shifters with wet discs.

Makes scram look more like a marketing company than a bike stuff company.

 

[King Boonen]

Bought a Full squish 29er last year. Went for comfort on my XC bike. Thought about hard tail but I'll take the weight penalty now instead of later. Mind you it is only 4 and 4 so not a deep squish. Where do these terms come from?

Don't know, but I like them


I'm obsessed with owning a high-spec 120mm steel hardtail, but I know for the riding I do I'd be better off with a 140mm-160mm FS, like a Trainsition Bandit or Covert.

27.5 interests me, especially as Cotic have released a 27.5 Soul so I could try it and a 26 on the same trail to see which I liked best. I've tried some 29ers, I'm 6 foot so not small, but I just didn't like them. They did seem to take some of the fun out of it and I don't ride to go fast.