Rock & Roll will never die, but rim brakes are on the outs.

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Ok, so, have been riding this Ibis Hakkalugi carbon with disk brakes most of this year, 3k miles so far, 700 of which was a handful of spring and early summer gravel racing, soon it will be geared down for CX this fall. Now, despite what some people think I’m actually very slow to change over to new tech, consider myself a traditionalist, I was brought up on a steady dose of road cycling since the age of 14, and still have a love affair with the ride of lightweight steel road bikes with simple 32h3x wheels. No, I’m not Jobst Brandt or Bill McGann, these guys are old enough to be my dad. Despite this character flaw, I have never been so convinced now that I have nearly an entire season on this bike that disk brakes are going to completely take over cx, then eventually road when the UCI pulls their heads out of the sand. They are superior to rim brakes in every way, even with my lowly full mechanical Shimano CX75’s. Eventually rim brakes are going to be phased out through the bottom of the range, and the last of the high end ones will end up as overpriced vintage pieces to be sold on eBay like toe clips, down tube shifters, and Nuovo Record.

Do you think I’ve completely blown a gasket? Why?

 

[King Boonen]

Mountain bikers know the truth.

 

[Wallace]

When all's said and done, the complete life-span or rock and roll will turn out to have been much shorter than the complete life-span of rim brakes.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

When all's said and done, the complete life-span or rock and roll will turn out to have been much shorter than the complete life-span of rim brakes.

Hardly! When enough people realize that grinding the life out of your wheels every time you apply the brakes is old, antiquated tech, rim brakes will end up being a popular scrap recycling run for bike shops, along with all the rims they ruined. The perfect job for an ElCamino with Zeppelin stuck in the 8-track.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Ok, so, have been riding this Ibis Hakkalugi carbon with disk brakes most of this year, 3k miles so far, 700 of which was a handful of spring and early summer gravel racing, soon it will be geared down for CX this fall. Now, despite what some people think I’m actually very slow to change over to new tech, consider myself a traditionalist, I was brought up on a steady dose of road cycling since the age of 14, and still have a love affair with the ride of lightweight steel road bikes with simple 32h3x wheels. No, I’m not Jobst Brandt or Bill McGann, these guys are old enough to be my dad. Despite this character flaw, I have never been so convinced now that I have nearly an entire season on this bike that disk brakes are going to completely take over cx, then eventually road when the UCI pulls their heads out of the sand. They are superior to rim brakes in every way, even with my lowly full mechanical Shimano CX75’s. Eventually rim brakes are going to be phased out through the bottom of the range, and the last of the high end ones will end up as overpriced vintage pieces to be sold on eBay like toe clips, down tube shifters, and Nuovo Record.

Do you think I’ve completely blown a gasket? Why?

http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/g...bjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=ODI4NzM&LangId=1

Trundle on down to bike equipment. Until the UCI makes it so, don't expect it to be large. Won't be in 2014(as will be seen at EuroBike and InterBike..what is shown for cross is not what is marketing as 'road..particularly with road frames still staying at 130mm.

Discs were out for over a decade before UCI made them legal for 'cross' and even then, most Pros didn't use them...



And then watch the 2013/14 Euro Cross season and see how many riders use disc..vs canti. Get back to me..since I won't be in the shop.

Nice Ibis...not for me tho-needs internal hydros and EPS...

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Trundle on down to bike equipment. Until the UCI makes it so, don't expect it to be large. Won't be in 2014(as will be seen at EuroBike and InterBike..what is shown for cross is not what is marketing as 'road..particularly with road frames still staying at 130mm.

How so? Every year since about 2007 there's more d-brakes on display at all the trade shows. And just like you said, "135 is around the corner". You think that's only being done with gearing in mind? That move is swinging the door wide open for d-brakes on road bikes.

Discs were out for over a decade before UCI made them legal for 'cross' and even then, most Pros didn't use them...

And most wont this year, but it will be more than last, then eventually.......

And then watch the 2013/14 Euro Cross season and see how many riders use disc..vs canti. Get back to me..since I won't be in the shop.

Have no interest in the Sven Nys show, dude looks like a rat. I'll pay attention to Euro cross again when he retires. Besides, all the major R&D and testing on d-brakes is being done in our CX scene.

Nice Ibis...not for me tho-needs internal hydros and EPS...

Well thanks B-knuckle, it's a helluva ride! The most road worthy CX bike I've ever owned. You know, I did try and squeeze Campy 11 on this during the initial build, but the chainstays are too thick and the lockring was rubbing.

 

[LugHugger]

Meanwhile back over the pond the noobs buying road bikes are all rim brake equipped. So, despite the shop floors having increasing numbers of the bikes being pushed by the Brands and the shop owners, nobodies taking them up. This year's models are deeply discounted and piles of them sit in the back of shops and warehouses. Meanwhile, the old schoolers don't want to know because, let's face it, there's nowt wrong with rim brakes and we've spent ££££/$$$$/€€€€ on nice frames that are fit for our purposes.

And while you guys are doing the R&D on discs, you're getting you're a**ses handed to you by the canti boys in the races which matter

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Meanwhile back over the pond the noobs buying road bikes are all rim brake equipped. So, despite the shop floors having increasing numbers of the bikes being pushed by the Brands and the shop owners, nobodies taking them up. This year's models are deeply discounted and piles of them sit in the back of shops and warehouses. Meanwhile, the old schoolers don't want to know because, let's face it, there's nowt wrong with rim brakes and we've spent ££££/$$$$/€€€€ on nice frames that are fit for our purposes.

And while you guys are doing the R&D on discs, you're getting you're a**ses handed to you by the canti boys in the races which matter

Currently it's all about geography. There are North American brands that sold out of their entire stock of disk brake road/cx bikes this year, even shops who sold out Euro brand d-brake offerings like from Ridley. Nothing wrong with rim brakes, actually yeah, there is, it's about disk being better, in every aspect and getting much better every year. When was the last time there was any significant improvement to current road rim brakes? Yellow pads, dual pivot? Big deal, minor improvements at best. And that holy crappola hydro monstrosity from ScRAM is instant garbage, one word, Magura. And to suggest that the Euros are better than their North American counterparts because they're on cantis is, well, I'm sure you can figure that one out. Silly Luggy!!

 

[LugHugger]

Currently it's all about geography. There are North American brands that sold out of their entire stock of disk brake road/cx bikes this year, even shops who sold out Euro brand d-brake offerings like from Ridley. Nothing wrong with rim brakes, actually yeah, there is, it's about disk being better, in every aspect and getting much better every year. When was the last time there was any significant improvement to current road rim brakes? Yellow pads, dual pivot? Big deal, minor improvements at best. And that holy crappola hydro monstrosity from ScRAM is instant garbage, one word, Magura. And to suggest that the Euros are better than their North American counterparts because they're on cantis is, well, I'm sure you can figure that one out. Silly Luggy!!

Yep, geography and history I'm sure have a lot to do with the slow (non existent) penetration of discs into the UK/French road markets (the only markets I have any experience with). How many times have we slammed bike Marketeers for needless/spurious 'innovations'? In Europe, this just feels like S brands trying to move product. The CX example just proves that it's innovation/implementation for it's own sake.
Btw, I'm not denying that discs work more powerfully, just that the punters over here don't want or need them as they stand at the moment.

 

[King Boonen]

Hey, hey, my, my.,

Disc brakes on a road-bike make bustedknuckle cry,

Rim brakes are dying,

and we can all see why,

Hey, hey, my, my.


Seriously though, disc brakes offer massive advantages with seemingly no drawbacks except the obvious back-compatibility issues. They are also extremely cheap on mountain bikes and bringing them to road bikes will only serve to make the technology cheaper and better.

Huge and much more customisable stopping power, require very low forces for high power breaking, work as well in the wet as the dry and don't wear out a pretty important part of your wheel. What's not to like?

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Hey, hey, my, my.,

Disc brakes on a road-bike make bustedknuckle cry,

Rim brakes are dying,

and we can all see why,

Hey, hey, my, my.


Seriously though, disc brakes offer massive advantages with seemingly no drawbacks except the obvious back-compatibility issues. They are also extremely cheap on mountain bikes and bringing them to road bikes will only serve to make the technology cheaper and better.

Huge and much more customisable stopping power, require very low forces for high power breaking, work as well in the wet as the dry and don't wear out a pretty important part of your wheel. What's not to like?

Won't make me cry, I don't have to use them(I won't) and soon, I won't have to work on them.

Right now I have 3 drawers FULL of disc specific hardware and maybe 10-12 different pads on the wall. Bring on the road discs, smaller tolerances, less fluid, more heat....I'll just raise the $ to 'adjust' the brakes.

And when ya get ready for a ride, with the front wheel out, and the bike falls over, and depresses the lever..oh well, didn't want to ride anyway.

Great idea, that, discs..

What do ya get with less expensive wet disc brakes? Cheap disc brakes..rubbing, squealing, poor clearance,

I love it when I go down hill with one of these and hear that

zick, zick, zick, as the rotor rubs..lovely/

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Won't make me cry, I don't have to use them(I won't) and soon, I won't have to work on them.

Right now I have 3 drawers FULL of disc specific hardware and maybe 10-12 different pads on the wall. Bring on the road discs, smaller tolerances, less fluid, more heat....I'll just raise the $ to 'adjust' the brakes.

And when ya get ready for a ride, with the front wheel out, and the bike falls over, and depresses the lever..oh well, didn't want to ride anyway.

Great idea, that, discs..

What do ya get with less expensive wet disc brakes? Cheap disc brakes..rubbing, squealing, poor clearance,

I love it when I go down hill with one of these and hear that

zick, zick, zick, as the rotor rubs..lovely/

I can see how your opinion on road disk brakes was formed if your only experience with them is whatever disaster walks though the shop door. You should put a sign on your stand "NO BIKES POST 1983"

Did the transition from V-brakes to disk on mtb's go off with out a hitch? I can remember some overlap years, early 2000's when we were having these same problems with the new brakes. Your problem is that you can only think in absolutes what's going on today, if all you see is problem after problem I can see how that would kill any hope of things getting better.

 

[Wallace]

I'd argue that the existence of a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (in Cleveland!) is proof that R & R is dead. That and, you know, Kid Rock.

My racing days are a couple decades behind me, but I do still go on group rides and the occasional century. When I'm out in WA with other cyclists, sightings of electronic shifting are very rare, and and disc brakes non-existent (I realize this is completely anecdotal evidence and that maybe if I started my ride earlier I might see the brand new stuff), but when I meet up with racers out on the roads, they have the bikes with discs and batteries. My question is this: is it possible that unlike clipless pedals and sti/ergo shifting, what we're seeing are new technologies that will effectively segregate the bikes racers buy from the bikes non-racers buy, that the price and the demand for what the new technologies offer (your average recreational cyclist, even one that puts in lots of milage, doesn't stress about rim wear or shifting under load), the "problems" they solve, means that these technologies will not "trickle-down"? Just a thought. I will admit that I am a retro-grouch and that as far as I'm concerned the best shifters I ever had were Simplex Retro-Friction.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

My question is this: is it possible that unlike clipless pedals and sti/ergo shifting, what we're seeing are new technologies that will effectively segregate the bikes racers buy from the bikes non-racers buy.

Carbon had a lot more effect on the demographic of road cycling than any disk brake ever will. The argument is that overall, in every aspect of performance, disk is superior.

that the price and the demand for what the new technologies offer (your average recreational cyclist, even one that puts in lots of milage, doesn't stress about rim wear or shifting under load), the "problems" they solve, means that these technologies will not "trickle-down"?

Why wouldn't you stress about killing your rims every time you hit the brakes? On a typical 450ish gram rim it takes only 3 seasons to grind of enough of the brake track to effect ride quality, then eventually structural integrity.

I will admit that I am a retro-grouch and that as far as I'm concerned the best shifters I ever had were Simplex Retro-Friction.

I've never talked to a retro grouch that is pro disk brake so we're safe here. You and B-knuckle should get together and start a Dandy Horse club.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I can see how your opinion on road disk brakes was formed if your only experience with them is whatever disaster walks though the shop door. You should put a sign on your stand "NO BIKES POST 1983"

Did the transition from V-brakes to disk on mtb's go off with out a hitch? I can remember some overlap years, early 2000's when we were having these same problems with the new brakes. Your problem is that you can only think in absolutes what's going on today, if all you see is problem after problem I can see how that would kill any hope of things getting better.

Nope cuz those people will pay for good service...

The 'transition' on MTBs is STILL going on..carbon frames, full sus don't help make these any simplier..

Think in absolutes of what's going on today, yep, cuz it's ya know, 'today'.

Motorcycles have figured discs and suspension out. MTBs still have a ways to go. A Fox 29er shock costs more than one on a Yamaha..something wrong there..particularly when you see a MTB, $1000+ shock needed service every year.

Same with discs. Wet discs have been around for over a decade, but because it's gotta be light, and with pretty anodized colors, the real effective technology still in the hands of the guys in the big office, the marketeers.

Yep, it's coming and when it works, it's great but when it doesn't...it doesn't work at all..kinda like electronic shifting.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

.......technology still in the hands of the guys in the big office, the marketeers.

I wonder how much the marketing department at TRP had to do with going from Parabox to HY/RD in one calender year?

 

[kuoirad]

Random thought WRT the UCI and neutral support vehicles - if/when this does make it to the pro peloton, I can easily see the UCI mandating rotor sizes and such to make it such that it's "easy" for the neutral support people to stock wheels. Hell, they already have to stock both Shimano/SRAM and Campy wheels.

Having no experience with disc wheels, what I don't know about is how discs would affect fast wheel changes, either by team mechanics or neutral support ones...

All that being said, I'd love to go to (mechanical) disc myself. But that'd require a new frame/fork and getting GM to build me some wheels, so it's a ways off for me.

 

[King Boonen]

Random thought WRT the UCI and neutral support vehicles - if/when this does make it to the pro peloton, I can easily see the UCI mandating rotor sizes and such to make it such that it's "easy" for the neutral support people to stock wheels. Hell, they already have to stock both Shimano/SRAM and Campy wheels.

Having no experience with disc wheels, what I don't know about is how discs would affect fast wheel changes, either by team mechanics or neutral support ones...

All that being said, I'd love to go to (mechanical) disc myself. But that'd require a new frame/fork and getting GM to build me some wheels, so it's a ways off for me.

In terms of wheel changes it'll make pretty much no difference, it's not hard to line up the rotor.

Why mechanical?

 

[kuoirad]

Why mechanical?

For what I (mostly) ride for (commuting, 10 miles one way), hydraulic seems like overkill. Also ups the maintenance requirements.

Granted, I don't really *need* to go disc, the cantis I have work fine for my situation.

 

[King Boonen]

For what I (mostly) ride for (commuting, 10 miles one way), hydraulic seems like overkill. Also ups the maintenance requirements.

Granted, I don't really *need* to go disc, the cantis I have work fine for my situation.

I wouldn't say it's overkill. Once you get used to them the modulation is as wide as you get on rim brakes. And really, when it comes down to a situation where you need it you can never have too much stopping power.

Practically no maintenance for hydraulic disc brakes. I know people who've had their mountain bikes for 5+ years and all they've had to do is change the pads,bleeding is also really easy, easier than changing cables.

Mechanical require adjustments as the pads go wear though as only one pad moves.

 

[LugHugger]

All that being said, I'd love to go to (mechanical) disc myself. But that'd require a new frame/fork and getting GM to build me some wheels, so it's a ways off for me.

Ay,that's the nub isn't it? Most of us have too much time, cash and tarmac invested in our 10/11 speed mechanical frame, forks, wheels and transmissions to give them up for a performance bump that we don't know or think that we need.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

In terms of wheel changes it'll make pretty much no difference, it's not hard to line up the rotor.

Why mechanical?

You must be kidding..those of us work on these have a drawer(BIG drawer) full of spacers, and adapters, and shims because rotors don't line up with calipers all the time.

And easier to bleed than change a cable-sorry, gotta disagree on that one.

Plus all ya need for a cable change is a 5mm allen wrench and a cable cutter.

Example and most are different..with different ports and grub screws, banjo fittings, etc.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=shimano+brake+bleed+kit

 

[King Boonen]

Ay,that's the nub isn't it? Most of us have too much time, cash and tarmac invested in our 10/11 speed mechanical frame, forks, wheels and transmissions to give them up for a performance bump that we don't know or think that we need.

Ok, but if you were now buying a new frame and the one you wanted was available as both disc or rim and the shop would replace all the required parts so it didn't cost you anything to change to disc, what would you choose?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Ok, but if you were now buying a new frame and the one you wanted was available as both disc or rim and the shop would replace all the required parts so it didn't cost you anything to change to disc, what would you choose?

BH RX Team... Mech or electro shift, canties or disk brakes, 130 or 135mm rear? This one does it all. Almost ended up with this bike instead of the Ibis.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

BH RX Team... Mech or electro shift, canties or disk brakes, 130 or 135mm rear? This one does it all. Almost ended up with this bike instead of the Ibis.

What team would that be?

I'm tapping out of this one. Few people are as evangelical about bike crap, about toys, as you. Ya like wet discs, Groovey, yep, they are the thing of the future, for good or......not. Some putz said, 'it's not about the bike', I think the only NON-BS thing he ever said.

Have fun!!

I'm out, in a lot of ways.