Rock & Roll will never die, but rim brakes are on the outs.

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

What team would that be?

I'm tapping out of this one. Few people are as evangelical about bike crap, about toys, as you. Ya like wet discs, Groovey, yep, they are the thing of the future, for good or......not. Some putz said, 'it's not about the bike', I think the only NON-BS thing he ever said.

Have fun!!

I'm out, in a lot of ways.

Praise the Lord baby Jesus! The last oftha curmudgeons has sumbitted to the almighty disk brake Jesus Lord God Lord! Disk brakes are better no matter what Ned Ludd thinks. How in the world did you climb into a fighter jet for so many years being as anti technology as you are?

 

[BroDeal]

Over on Velocipede Salon there is a thread titled, "disc brakes on a dogma".

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/disc-brakes-dogma-33034.html

One of the issues that keeps popping up is heat build up. What is the answer to that?

A member there wrote this astute post:

"this is such hideously unrefined technology that people who buy in must surely understand they are merely voting with their dollars. i can't understand an educated consumer walking into a retail bike shop and purchasing a product so obviously early in its development stage.

i'll keep working with winners until this **** stops being consolation upon inhibition upon compromise......

the deeper i look the more troubled i am at the developments with bike drivetrain tech of late. 11speed by shimano is clearly a move designed to force sram to scramble because of their weak driving capacity in the aftermarket wheel sector. this muddies up chicago's product offering by forcing them to introduce 11speed shifting along with their counter move in the form of 2 new forms of hydraulic braking whose benefits contradict each other . hydraulic disks for better braking performance. hydraulic rim brakes because industry standards could potentially someday match the frame/ hub/ caliper integration technology that validates this type of effort-- just invest now and expect to keep your drivetrain long enough to buy a frameset that allows for disks....

the ugliness of these components indicates f1 tech for those willing to own soon-obsolete crap."

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Over on Velocipede Salon there is a thread titled, "disc brakes on a dogma".

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/disc-brakes-dogma-33034.html

One of the issues that keeps popping up is heat build up. What is the answer to that?

A member there wrote this astute post:

"this is such hideously unrefined technology that people who buy in must surely understand they are merely voting with their dollars. i can't understand an educated consumer walking into a retail bike shop and purchasing a product so obviously early in its development stage.

i'll keep working with winners until this **** stops being consolation upon inhibition upon compromise......

the deeper i look the more troubled i am at the developments with bike drivetrain tech of late. 11speed by shimano is clearly a move designed to force sram to scramble because of their weak driving capacity in the aftermarket wheel sector. this muddies up chicago's product offering by forcing them to introduce 11speed shifting along with their counter move in the form of 2 new forms of hydraulic braking whose benefits contradict each other . hydraulic disks for better braking performance. hydraulic rim brakes because industry standards could potentially someday match the frame/ hub/ caliper integration technology that validates this type of effort-- just invest now and expect to keep your drivetrain long enough to buy a frameset that allows for disks....

the ugliness of these components indicates f1 tech for those willing to own soon-obsolete crap."

Sounds like another disgruntled bike mechanic. You can't throw a stone in Colorado without hitting one. The heat build up thing was perpetuated by Shimano guys 2 years ago, haven't heard peep since. I bet you anything this guy you quoted is over 50!!!

 

[Wallace]

Sounds like another disgruntled bike mechanic. You can't throw a stone in Colorado without hitting one. The heat build up thing was perpetuated by Shimano guys 2 years ago, haven't heard peep since. I bet you anything this guy you quoted is over 50!!!

Jesus god--over 50? Do people still live that long? Somebody should kill the old ******* out of mercy, or since there aren't any ice floes to set the geriatric adrift on anymore, just coat him in A-1 sauce and drop him in grizzly country.

 

[BroDeal]

Sounds like another disgruntled bike mechanic. You can't throw a stone in Colorado without hitting one. The heat build up thing was perpetuated by Shimano guys 2 years ago, haven't heard peep since. I bet you anything this guy you quoted is over 50!!!

That's it? That's the best you got? I know it is often hard to translate from VelocipedeSalon-speak to English, but do you care to dispute anything he actually said, which is essentially that customers are being used as beta testers and many component developments are being made to gain business advantage over rivals rather than to provide a realistic benefit to customers? It is like buying MTB suspension in the mid 90s. That Pro-Flex MTB may have seemed dope when you bought it but is now regarded as a joke on the way to suspension that actually works well. Why should anyone dole out their cash today for the Pro-Flex equivalent of road bike discs?

One of the guys in the thread talking about heat build up is Craig Gaulzetti. I tend to trust his opinion more than yours.

How old do you think the guy who wrote the quote below is?

"The problem space of making a road disc be able to shed all that heat is pretty difficult, you're dumping so much energy into it going from 45mph to 30 (much more than 30 to 0) and then your brakes are hot when you need them to be at their best

I just managed to warp an XTR Ice Tech 160mm rotor purely from heat on a technical dirt road descent, those are the best rotors on the market currently and I was being as gingerly with the braking as I could possibly get away with.

Shimano thinks their new "Freeza" rotors will make this **** actually meet their standards for road use. In the mean time hopefully I can get some improvement from just switching to their old XTR Ti-backed metallic pads."

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Jesus god--over 50? Do people still live that long? Somebody should kill the old ******* out of mercy, or since there aren't any ice floes to set the geriatric adrift on anymore, just coat him in A-1 sauce and drop him in grizzly country.

You geezers definately have a streak of pro nostalgia and hating on anything new, even if you have little to no experience with something somehow age and crust trumps common sense. The old guys can always kick back in their rocking chairs and reminisce about the gool 'ol days of Italian bikes made with plumbers tubing, leather chammys and wool, but there comes a point where it becomes redundant when debating new tech.

P.S. I'm building a champagne gold, 1974 Masi Gran Criterium, with a twin plate fork crown and rear drops milled by Confente for L'eroica next year. Enough to give the most geriatric a woody sans viagra.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

That's it? That's the best you got? I know it is often hard to translate from VelocipedeSalon-speak to English, but do you care to dispute anything he actually said, which is essentially that customers are being used as beta testers and many component developments are being made to gain business advantage over rivals rather than to provide a realistic benefit to customers? It is like buying MTB suspension in the mid 90s. That Pro-Flex MTB may have seemed dope when you bought it but is now regarded as a joke on the way to suspension that actually works well. Why should anyone dole out their cash today for the Pro-Flex equivalent of road bike discs?

God what a lame analogy! Ok, so why don't we just stop buying everything and let the industry stagnate? Every year this industry generates $6bn in revenue, been at this level for the last several years. How in the hell do you progress if you don't try new things?

One of the guys in the thread talking about heat build up is Craig Gaulzetti. I tend to trust his opinion more than yours.

Funny you mention Craig Gaulzetti, spoke with him at NAHBS this Winter about this very subject and continued through the Spring via email. He's in full agreement that disk is better and will eventually get good enough to take over, unlike most here who cannot see past tomorrow. So, trust who you may. Why should we listen you? Your seemingly millions of miles testing d-brakes on the current crop of cx and road bikes. I think the only reason you're here because you ran out of people to bully on the rest of the forum, typical. 12k+ posts man, you really need to get out more!! Whatever Brohammerdolt, I'll play along with you, at least you speak in complete sentences.

How old do you think the guy who wrote the quote below is?

"The problem space of making a road disc be able to shed all that heat is pretty difficult, you're dumping so much energy into it going from 45mph to 30 (much more than 30 to 0) and then your brakes are hot when you need them to be at their best

I just managed to warp an XTR Ice Tech 160mm rotor purely from heat on a technical dirt road descent, those are the best rotors on the market currently and I was being as gingerly with the braking as I could possibly get

How much does this guy weigh, 300lbs? What a crock of .....!!!! I've dropped like a rock off multiple mountain passes at 45mph+ and 700 miles of gravel racing earlier this year with this thing and have had absolutely none of these heat problems that these guys are talking about!! Have heard so many people talk so much BS about disk, and none of it has happened to me, or anybody else I know that's running them. Are we just plain lucky? I've had far more problems with rim brakes fading out on carbon rims in the same situations over the years. Take away all the other benefits, the biggest advantage I've had with disk, especially racing, is the ability to brake later, much later in the curves on technical courses than anybody with rim brakes. Changed the way I ride.

 

[dsut4392]

How old do you think the guy who wrote the quote below is?

"The problem space of making a road disc be able to shed all that heat is pretty difficult, you're dumping so much energy into it going from 45mph to 30 (much more than 30 to 0) and then your brakes are hot when you need them to be at their best"

Old enough to pick a bad example, or just not great at physics...it's about 15% more energy, hardly "much more".

 

[BroDeal]

God what a lame analogy! Ok, so why don't we just stop buying everything and let the industry stagnate? Every year this industry generates $6bn in revenue, been at this level for the last several years. How in the hell do you progress if you don't try new things?

There is a difference between using customers as guinea pigs for poorly engineered crap products that will be abandoned the following year for the next iteration that gets closer to working and developing new products, testing them extensively until they are found to be suitable for real world use, then selling those to the public. Do you think people were happy buying a Pro-Flex? Bob Roll raced them with the rear suspension disabled, so he was effectively racing a hard tail. How about the poor bastards who bought a Trek 9200? Eventually the industry got full suspension right, but there were a whole lot of suckers who wasted their hard earned money on products that never should have made it out of R&D.

Funny you mention Craig Gaulzetti, spoke with him at NAHBS this Winter about this very subject and continued through the Spring via email. He's in full agreement that disk is better and will eventually get good enough to take over, unlike most here who cannot see past tomorrow. So, trust who you may. Why should we listen you? Your seemingly millions of miles testing d-brakes on the current crop of cx and road bikes. I think the only reason you're here because you ran out of people to bully on the rest of the forum, typical. 12k+ posts man, you really need to get out more!! Whatever Brohammerdolt, I'll play along with you, at least you speak in complete sentences.

One guy says "eventually" and the industry wh0re says "buy now." As you play the part of an over-aged hipster, much like the creepy college student who shows up at parties for high schoolers, and rail against The Man and everyone five years older than yourself, you have dodged the question of why anyone should spend their own money to foot the bill for the industry's haphazard product development that includes a large amount of planned obsolescence.

I am not opposed to road discs. I am opposed to buying a nice bike only to have it obsoleted in three years. I am opposed to the industry deliberately destroying any semblance of standardization and expecting their customers to bend over and take it up the wazoo every couple of years when Adam Smith's invisible fist decides the industry needs to goose its sales by coming up with a new set of standards with negligible advantages.

 

[BroDeal]

Old enough to pick a bad example, or just not great at physics...it's about 15% more energy, hardly "much more".

He should of picked better numbers, but the point is valid. 60-0 requires four times as much energy to be dissipated as 30-0. The rotors typically are ~40% of the weight of a light Al rim, so there will be a lot of heat being dumped into a much smaller amount of metal.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

There is a difference between using customers as guinea pigs for poorly engineered crap products that will be abandoned the following year for the next iteration that gets closer to working and developing new products, testing them extensively until they are found to be suitable for real world use, then selling those to the public. Do you think people were happy buying a Pro-Flex? Bob Roll raced them with the rear suspension disabled, so he was effectively racing a hard tail. How about the poor bastards who bought a Trek 9200? Eventually the industry got full suspension right, but there were a whole lot of suckers who wasted their hard earned money on products that never should have made it out of R&D.

One guy says "eventually" and the industry wh0re says "buy now." As you play the part of an over-aged hipster, much like the creepy college student who shows up at parties for high schoolers, and rail against The Man and everyone five years older than yourself, you have dodged the question of why anyone should spend their own money to foot the bill for the industry's haphazard product development that includes a large amount of planned obsolescence.

I am not opposed to road discs. I am opposed to buying a nice bike only to have it obsoleted in three years. I am opposed to the industry deliberately destroying any semblance of standardization and expecting their customers to bend over and take it up the wazoo every couple of years when Adam Smith's invisible fist decides the industry needs to goose its sales by coming up with a new set of standards with negligible advantages.

Man, it must suck to be you. All these problems, how do you even get out of bed in the morning? You may need to get your tinfoil hat re-calibrated. You live in Utah, don't you? Aren't your wives and your inbred son worried that you're up so late cracked out on Prozak trolling on a internet forum?

 

[King Boonen]

I love the fact brodeal brings up Gaulzetti and says he'll take his word over GM's, then when it's shown Gaulzetti actually thinks discs are the way forward he has a go at GM for taking the word of "one guy".


Classic. Only works in the clinic though.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Praise the Lord baby Jesus! The last oftha curmudgeons has sumbitted to the almighty disk brake Jesus Lord God Lord! Disk brakes are better no matter what Ned Ludd thinks. How in the world did you climb into a fighter jet for so many years being as anti technology as you are?

Ahh civilians...they pay, they know nothing.

Take a breath, calm down, it's about toys afterall.

 

[BroDeal]

I love the fact brodeal brings up Gaulzetti and says he'll take his word over GM's, then when it's shown Gaulzetti actually thinks discs are the way forward he has a go at GM for taking the word of "one guy".

Classic. Only works in the clinic though.

Let me see. Pops off without reading the thread on VS where Gaulzetti talks about problems current road discs have with heat then misses the "eventually" in what RDV reports CG told him Yup. Classic. That appears to work here as well as the Clinic.

I don't care what will _eventually_ be the way forward. I care about whether the technology is stable enough today to spend money on or whether I will end up buying something that will be obsoleted in two years.

 

[BroDeal]

Man, it must suck to be you. All these problems, how do you even get out of bed in the morning? You may need to get your tinfoil hat re-calibrated. You live in Utah, don't you? Aren't your wives and your inbred son worried that you're up so late cracked out on Prozak trolling on a internet forum?

Classy. Still smarting over the Rapha thread I see. You need to work a bit harder on your retorts. With a little effort I am sure you can wedge in some racist stuff about my girlfriend--you know, whatever term people like you use for asians.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

What's the matter, did I touch a nerve? Hey, at least I'm original, I've seen you use those very same lines on others when you start to loose grip on the situation. Very good BroDumb, I'll have you chased out of the bikes and gear section of the forum just like before, I think multiple times over the years, so predictable this one. But go ahead and flame on like the raging @sshole you are, we need more ban material. We'll see how long your stupid trolling goes again, I actually have a life out of here and have to get back to work.

 

[kuoirad]

Ay,that's the nub isn't it? Most of us have too much time, cash and tarmac invested in our 10/11 speed mechanical frame, forks, wheels and transmissions to give them up for a performance bump that we don't know or think that we need.

Well, I'm only on 9-speed, and I also don't ride near as much as most of you guys do. Heck, up against you guys I would hesitate to call myself an enthusiast.

 

[kuoirad]

Ok, but if you were now buying a new frame and the one you wanted was available as both disc or rim and the shop would replace all the required parts so it didn't cost you anything to change to disc, what would you choose?

Unfortunately, it looks like they did away with it in the 2013 models, but Soma used to have a version of the Double Cross that had removable canti posts in addition to being disc-ready. If I'd come into a enough money burning a hole in my pocket, I would have swapped out my frame for that so all I'd have had to do when I could justify it would be to get new wheels and a fork (plus the brakes themselves, obviously) to switch over.

 

[Wallace]

What's the matter, did I touch a nerve? Hey, at least I'm original, I've seen you use those very same lines on others when you start to loose grip on the situation. Very good BroDumb, I'll have you chased out of the bikes and gear section of the forum just like before, I think multiple times over the years, so predictable this one. But go ahead and flame on like the raging @sshole you are, we need more ban material. We'll see how long your stupid trolling goes again, I actually have a life out of here and have to get back to work.

You do realize that it takes two to have an argument, don't you? The tone of your posts on this thread--which is really about nothing more than whether or not the latest bike gizmo is the greatest thing since high-end canned beer--has been a bit, shall we say, combative? (Insert the up-speak you youngsters like to use.)

When I stopped by Herriot Sports Performance recently (Seattle's best bike shop, by far, now that Il Vecchio has sadly closed its doors) I picked up a Colnago CX Zero Disc--it practically floated up to the ceiling it was so light. And the lines, without brakes, were beautiful, I will admit. If I was seventy years younger and a whole lot richer, I'd buy one in a second. But since I'm old, senile (as I'm sure you'll happily testify) and middle class, I'll stick to my Precambrian Campy 10 speed, especially since I have it on both of my bikes and all my wheels.

 

[Boeing]

but I thought the rust on your rebuilt campy stuff would never sleep

google it

 

[Boeing]

You do realize that it takes two to have an argument, don't you?

Wallace is my new favorite poster. word my brother

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

Ah, I see BroDeal's shadow has arrived. If I recall correct, out of all of us you're the one treading on the thinnest ice. You looking for a ban too Boring?

 

[King Boonen]

I'm guessing all you guys are writing these replys with a quill, passing them on to someone technically proficient enough to post them and waiting for answers by telegram?

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

You do realize that it takes two to have an argument, don't you? The tone of your posts on this thread--which is really about nothing more than whether or not the latest bike gizmo is the greatest thing since high-end canned beer--has been a bit, shall we say, combative? (Insert the up-speak you youngsters like to use.)

And why wouldn't it be? Can only take so much of a couple elders that want to go on about the gold era when things were simpler. The whole point of the thread was to discuss the role of disk brakes taking over the market. I've had great results, and I wonder what people think.

BroDeal and Boeing are notorious thread destroyers, since the very beginning of the forum. They've done this before and they'll do it again until a forced exit.

When I stopped by Herriot Sports Performance recently (Seattle's best bike shop, by far, now that Il Vecchio has sadly closed its doors) I picked up a Colnago CX Zero Disc--it practically floated up to the ceiling it was so light. And the lines, without brakes, were beautiful, I will admit. If I was seventy years younger and a whole lot richer, I'd buy one in a second. But since I'm old, senile (as I'm sure you'll happily testify) and middle class, I'll stick to my Precambrian Campy 10 speed, especially since I have it on both of my bikes and all my wheels.

Ouch! For that money I'd rather have a custom Ti job done, not a fan of silly light. I already have in my possession the last Colnago I'll ever own. 1996 MasterXLight, RIM BRAKES!!!!

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

I'm guessing all you guys are writing these replys with a quill, passing them on to someone technically proficient enough to post them and waiting for answers by telegram?

Oh I'm sure of it! All while I'm eating lunch and having a good laugh over these goons like reading the funny papers.