Roger Clemens Trial

[Semper Fidelis]

I always felt that if Clemens had given a mea culpa apology, the way Pettie did, and stood next to Andy when he said it, it would have washed over within a week. He probably could have pitched again next year and would have received plenty of cheers, with a spattering of boos and not just from hometown fans.

Bonds however, the damage was so far done, and he just looked like a grotesque freak of nature. It became beyond repairable. As such I question whether either of these guys will make the Hall of Fame. Palmero's cooked too. Not for the roids, but for being a belligerent jerk, pointing his fingers at the congressional hearing and such. Ugly. Like McGuire he may not have had the numbers anyway.

None of these guys will go into the hall of fame. They are all the same. They cheated the game and will pay the price.

 

[Paco_P]

i think it's a stretch to link going to war and RC's steroid abuse. i guess it stems from the quote below but to be honest it borders on insane... .

They are linked by "American heros" and the blindness of US culture to its own propaganda and ideology.

Baseball has for a long time been hard to distinguish from what is called professional wrestling - a cartoon performance by inflated bloated frauds aimed at entertaining adolescent boys - Roger Clemens is one of the totemic figures. Clemens constructed an image of himself not unlike that constructed by Lance Armstrong, George Bush, or even Tiger Woods, to hide the reality of an ambitious bully. That this is what is celebrated and excused in the US is intimately related to what the US does beyond its borders.

 

[Oldman]

I always felt that if Clemens had given a mea culpa apology, the way Pettie did, and stood next to Andy when he said it, it would have washed over within a week. He probably could have pitched again next year and would have received plenty of cheers, with a spattering of boos and not just from hometown fans. Bonds however, the damage was so far done, and he just looked like a grotesque freak of nature. It became beyond repairable. As such I question whether either of these guys will make the Hall of Fame. Palmero's cooked too. Not for the roids, but for being a belligerent jerk, pointing his fingers at the congressional hearing and such. Ugly. Like McGuire he may not have had the numbers anyway.

And that's where ChrisE misses the point about lying to Congress on hearings regarding a protected monopoly. It's not like these guys were invited for a media chat session about improving Baseball's image with youth. The heart of the inquiry was about the use of PEDs that could come from unsecured sources and paid for through illegal channels. All they had to do was tell that part of the story and they'd be done, as Andy Pettite appeared to do.
As for the media's response I take the litmus test from popular late night shows for Joe Six-packs attitude-Jay Leno ran an intro portraying Clemens as a steroid beast arriving at his hearings. For those simplistic idiots that think everyone in some other country think and act the same: watch how this plays out to get a clue about future GJ events and resultant public perception. Roger Clemens was bigger than Lance in his time.

 

[zastomito]

Not strictly related to Clemens

Couple of high profile athletes named.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/07/jamal-lewis-takeo-spikes-named-as-patients-of-dr-galea/

 

[fatandfast]

I always felt that if Clemens had given a mea culpa apology, the way Pettie did, and stood next to Andy when he said it, it would have washed over within a week. He probably could have pitched again next year and would have received plenty of cheers, with a spattering of boos and not just from hometown fans.

Bonds however, the damage was so far done, and he just looked like a grotesque freak of nature. It became beyond repairable. As such I question whether either of these guys will make the Hall of Fame. Palmero's cooked too. Not for the roids, but for being a belligerent jerk, pointing his fingers at the congressional hearing and such. Ugly. Like McGuire he may not have had the numbers anyway.

he could have said something about his kids, or depression after injury or trying so hard to live like his idol Nolan Ryan. He should have just said I did whatever I could to stay in the game of pro baseball for myself and my family..and I am sooo sorry. half of the repub guys on the panel already had a free pass filled out with his name on it.

 

[lean mean &green]

They are linked by "American heros" and the blindness of US culture to its own propaganda and ideology.

Baseball has for a long time been hard to distinguish from what is called professional wrestling - a cartoon performance by inflated bloated frauds aimed at entertaining adolescent boys - Roger Clemens is one of the totemic figures. Clemens constructed an image of himself not unlike that constructed by Lance Armstrong, George Bush, or even Tiger Woods, to hide the reality of an ambitious bully. That this is what is celebrated and excused in the US is intimately related to what the US does beyond its borders.

the trick is to recognize the techniques of propaganda so that you can dismiss ALL of it on both sides instead of just choosing the side who's particular brand you like the best.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

They are linked by "American heros" and the blindness of US culture to its own propaganda and ideology.

Baseball has for a long time been hard to distinguish from what is called professional wrestling - a cartoon performance by inflated bloated frauds aimed at entertaining adolescent boys - Roger Clemens is one of the totemic figures. Clemens constructed an image of himself not unlike that constructed by Lance Armstrong, George Bush, or even Tiger Woods, to hide the reality of an ambitious bully. That this is what is celebrated and excused in the US is intimately related to what the US does beyond its borders.

Nice argument. You even have some politics thrown in for good measure.

 

[redtreviso]

Nice argument. You even have some politics thrown in for good measure.

I thought so too

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Well it looks like Rusty Hardin is going for the chewbacca defense already.

 

[Paco_P]

Only in the USA

Must be that US authorities are not serious about doping. What a joke is the US legal/justice system. Must be some mafia betting interests behind the Clemens mistrial. What's the matter with US law - evidence of doping can't be presented in trial to prove someone doped?


If I had written "Spain" everywhere I wrote "US" and "Contador/Nadal" instead of Clemens, no one would be upset.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Must be that US authorities are not serious about doping. What a joke is the US legal/justice system. Must be some mafia betting interests behind the Clemens mistrial. What's the matter with US law - evidence of doping can't be presented in trial to prove someone doped?

If I had written "Spain" everywhere I wrote "US" and "Contador/Nadal" instead of Clemens, no one would be upset.

Wow nice to claim that the entire country is not serious about doping. Not really funny that your saying our system is corupted by the mafia!

I think you must not undertand that there was some warnings given multiple times and it was ignored. That would be the basis for a mistrial.

 

[patricknd]

Must be that US authorities are not serious about doping. What a joke is the US legal/justice system. Must be some mafia betting interests behind the Clemens mistrial. What's the matter with US law - evidence of doping can't be presented in trial to prove someone doped?


If I had written "Spain" everywhere I wrote "US" and "Contador/Nadal" instead of Clemens, no one would be upset.

of course they wouldn't be upset, it's not like spain is important

i mean come on, it's spain, right?

 

[Paco_P]

Wow nice to claim that the entire country is not serious about doping. Not really funny that your saying our system is corupted by the mafia!

I think you must not undertand that there was some warnings given multiple times and it was ignored. That would be the basis for a mistrial.

I think you completely missed the irony. I basically pasted together pieces of old comments made in other threads about Spain related to other doping cases.

Actually, I do think our entire criminal justice system is terribly corrupt - between plea bargains and the fact that a 1/4 of the world's prisoners are in the US (which has 1/20 of the world's population) - there is something seriously wrong with our justice system.

 

[eleven]

It amazes me that the prosecution bungled this. It seems they let their own bravado get the best of them. I would be shocked if they are given another opportunity to take this to a jury.

Clemens might as well start planning his comeback because he's certainly not going to prison.

 

[sniper]

I think you completely missed the irony. I basically pasted together pieces of old comments made in other threads about Spain related to other doping cases.

Actually, I do think our entire criminal justice system is terribly corrupt - between plea bargains and the fact that a 1/4 of the world's prisoners are in the US (which has 1/20 of the world's population) - there is something seriously wrong with our justice system.

I also missed the irony.
Whether win or loose, USA are actually making cases against their own topathletes.
Spain simply isn't. Quite on the contrary.

 

[Berzin]

It amazes me that the prosecution bungled this. It seems they let their own bravado get the best of them. I would be shocked if they are given another opportunity to take this to a jury.

Clemens might as well start planning his comeback because he's certainly not going to prison.

Absolutely true.

Just wondering if any of the people working the Armstrong case were involved in the Bonds/Clemens fiasco.

If so, I'm sure it would make Armstrong even more defiant.

 

[Oldman]

Absolutely true.

Just wondering if any of the people working the Armstrong case were involved in the Bonds/Clemens fiasco.

If so, I'm sure it would make Armstrong even more defiant.

If they have half a case they'll be allowed to continue. As for Lance; you would rhink this would make the SP alot more careful meaning no real news.

 

[davestoller]

It amazes me that the prosecution bungled this. It seems they let their own bravado get the best of them. I would be shocked if they are given another opportunity to take this to a jury.

Clemens might as well start planning his comeback because he's certainly not going to prison.

I woulda thought so too, but former federal prosecutors interviewed in NYTimes stated that these prosecutors are among the hardest working and most ethical blah blah blah, and that it would NOT be unusual for them to get a chance to bring the case back. Double jeopardy rarely applies.

However, the writers also opined that the fact that the judge dismissed the jury and declared a mistrial (as opposed to scolding the prosecutors and telling the jury to ignore what they heard and saw) also spoke volumes about how weak the judge thought the case was to begin with, after three years of investigation, over a 100 different federal investigators involved and who knows how much money.

The judge said on the record that if the case wins, CLemens goes to jail--and with the stakes that high, there is no margin for error. Hope Novitzky is listening.

 

[Race Radio]

I woulda thought so too, but former federal prosecutors interviewed in NYTimes stated that these prosecutors are among the hardest working and most ethical blah blah blah, and that it would NOT be unusual for them to get a chance to bring the case back. Double jeopardy rarely applies.

However, the writers also opined that the fact that the judge dismissed the jury and declared a mistrial (as opposed to scolding the prosecutors and telling the jury to ignore what they heard and saw) also spoke volumes about how weak the judge thought the case was to begin with, after three years of investigation, over a 100 different federal investigators involved and who knows how much money.

The judge said on the record that if the case wins, CLemens goes to jail--and with the stakes that high, there is no margin for error. Hope Novitzky is listening.

Novitzky is not a lawyer. Doug Miller runs the Armstrong case

How would "Double Jeopardy" come into play if there was no trial?
Do you have a link for your claim of "over a 100 different federal investigators"? One that does not come from Clemens Media Disinformation campaign?

 

[davestoller]

Novitzky is not a lawyer. Doug Miller runs the Armstrong case

How would "Double Jeopardy" come into play if there was no trial?
Do you have a link for your claim of "over a 100 different federal investigators"? One that does not come from Clemens Media Disinformation campaign?

1. I know who Novitzky is and what he does. If you think Novitzky isn't a prime mover in this case, you are dead wrong.

2. You apparently don't know much about double jeopardy. Fortunately, the federal judge does.
NYTimes:
"Joshua Berman, a Washington lawyer and former federal prosecutor who knows Durham and Butler... Berman said the judge likely would have continued with the trial if it were further along. While the judge said double jeopardy — being tried twice for the same crime — might cause the case to be thrown out, Berman said that was unlikely because that ruling occurs only in exceptional cases."

3. I didn't claim 100 law enforcment officers--I made plain as day I was quoting the NYTimes article. Here it is again

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/15/sports/baseball/clemens-judge-declares-mistrial.html?pagewanted=1

<<“He is entitled to a fair trial and, in my view, he can’t get it now, and that was caused by the government,” Judge Walton said, later apologizing to the jury for wasting its time and the government’s money on a trial that had only begun Wednesday. The case has lasted more than three years and, according to the defense, has involved more than 100 law enforcement officials.>>

If you think the NYTimes would print a claim that sounds ridiculous like "100 law enforcement officers" without going to the other side and fact-checking/asking: "We have the defense on record as claiming over 100 law enforcement officers have been involved, can you confirm or deny" you again are wrong.

But it was the judge himself who was stating publicly that this witchunt has been a colossal waste of time and money--not me. I happen to agree with him. And Novitzky and Doug Miller are on notice at this point.

I happen to think Clemens was guilty.
I think the judge is right in declaring a mistrial.
Because, federal judges are more interested in preventing innocent people winding up in jail than guilty people walking-especially on a crummy lying to Congress charge. It's not exactly Watergate or IranCOntra.

But the other thing? Federal judges HATE getting overturned on appeal, and having Judge Jose Cabranes on the Second Court of Appeals b-slap you for sloppy jurisprudence is the thing sitting judges HATE HATE HATE. And Clemens of course would have appealed.

 

[davestoller]

BTW, Jeff was at the trial:

Jeff Novitzky, and agent for the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), exits federal court in Washington, Thursday, July 14, 2011, after a mistrial was declared in the government's perjury case against former Major League Baseball pitcher Roger Clemens.
- Cliff Owen /AP Photo


Read more: http://www.thestate.com/2011/07/14/1897997/judge-considering-mistrial-in.html#ixzz1SDmB5FKf

FDA agent Jeff Novitzky, the steroid cop who brought down BALCO and is now leading the Lance Armstrong doping investigation, was also in the courthouse Thursday.

Novitzky, whom the government had planned on calling as a witness, was in the hall outside Courtroom 16 when Clemens stepped out during a morning break. The two men looked at each other but didn't speak. Clemens, who had been talking to one of his supporters as Novitzky walked past, went from speaking to whispering.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i...bullet_rocket_eludes_media.html#ixzz1SDmi0COB

 

[Race Radio]

1. I know who Novitzky is and what he does. If you think Novitzky isn't a prime mover in this case, you are dead wrong.

2. You apparently don't know much about double jeopardy. Fortunately, the federal judge does.
NYTimes:
"Joshua Berman, a Washington lawyer and former federal prosecutor who knows Durham and Butler... Berman said the judge likely would have continued with the trial if it were further along. While the judge said double jeopardy — being tried twice for the same crime — might cause the case to be thrown out, Berman said that was unlikely because that ruling occurs only in exceptional cases."

3. I didn't claim 100 law enforcment officers--I made plain as day I was quoting the NYTimes article. Here it is again

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/15/sports/baseball/clemens-judge-declares-mistrial.html?pagewanted=1

<<“He is entitled to a fair trial and, in my view, he can’t get it now, and that was caused by the government,” Judge Walton said, later apologizing to the jury for wasting its time and the government’s money on a trial that had only begun Wednesday. The case has lasted more than three years and, according to the defense, has involved more than 100 law enforcement officials.>>

If you think the NYTimes would print a claim that sounds ridiculous like "100 law enforcement officers" without going to the other side and fact-checking/asking: "We have the defense on record as claiming over 100 law enforcement officers have been involved, can you confirm or deny" you again are wrong.

But it was the judge himself who was stating publicly that this witchunt has been a colossal waste of time and money--not me. I happen to agree with him. And Novitzky and Doug Miller are on notice at this point.

I happen to think Clemens was guilty.
I think the judge is right in declaring a mistrial.
Because, federal judges are more interested in preventing innocent people winding up in jail than guilty people walking-especially on a crummy lying to Congress charge. It's not exactly Watergate or IranCOntra.

But the other thing? Federal judges HATE getting overturned on appeal, and having Judge Jose Cabranes on the Second Court of Appeals b-slap you for sloppy jurisprudence is the thing sitting judges HATE HATE HATE. And Clemens of course would have appealed.

Thank you for proving my point.

Novitzky is only one of multiple investigators working the Armstrong case. FBI, IRS, USPS, DEA all have full time investigators. They all answer to Doug Miller.....but as people do not know who Doug Miller is Armstrong's media machine has spun a tail that this is a Novitzky witch hunt. The groupies have bought this myth, but that does not make it true. If you think Novitzky runs this case you are dead wrong.

Did you even read the NYT story?

Berman said that was unlikely because that ruling occurs only in exceptional cases."

Even mentioning double jeopardy in relation to this case is absurd

As for your claim of "over a 100 different federal investigators" did you even read the article?

according to the defense, has involved more than 100 law enforcement officials

I will ask you again, do you have a source that supports your claim that does not come from Clemens Media Disinformation campaign?

 

[davestoller]

If you think bringin up double jeopardy is absurd, take it up with the federal judge. I was qouting the article which had the JUDGE onnthe record mentioning double jeopardy.

Ifnyou hve an issue with the"100" law enforcement agents" take it up with the NYTimes. I was quoting them. I did not claim it. Didnyou even read my post? I pointed out twice- the NYTimes printed it, in support of the federal judge apologizing for wasting the jury member's time and the taxpayers money. Yes, it was sourced from the defense, but no one on the prosecutors' side is denying it. So it stands.

I hardly proved your point. So, do you think Novitzky is not a prime mover in this case? He was in court. He was ready to testify. He is a mojor witness for the prosecution. He probably has more experience in investigating steroid use in baseball than anyone in the world.
Ditto for the LA investigation.

 

[Paco_P]

I also missed the irony.
Whether win or loose, USA are actually making cases against their own topathletes.
Spain simply isn't. Quite on the contrary.

That's just nonsense. Operacion Puerto, fiasco that it was, consisted in busting a bunch of people for blood doping. Recently there was a high profile bust of a bunch of Spanish track and field athletes. There are numerous recent cases that are surely not reported in the US. There are loads of problems with the Spanish judiciary, legislation, and sporting authorities, but the police at least do investigate. In the US, on the the other hand, goons like Clemens walk, but nobody dares wonder if prosecutorial negligence is just corruption.

The US has 7 times the population of Spain, a problem with drug use in sports that is plainly as serious as it is in any country in the world, and only a few half-assed prosecutions of a few totemic figures. What country has more tainted gold medals than the US? What country has more tainted TdF wins? What country has anything more ridiculously inflated than Major League Baseball, the NFL or the NBA (some of these guys could be popped with a pin)? Well, those that have professional football certainly have lots of drug use.

What happens is that cycling is a sport which actually tries to police drug use - unlike professional football or baseball - and Spaniards are overrepresented in the sport for cultural reasons (it's a mountainous country with a dry climate). Look at who won in the US track and field championships this summer and you'll see how serious the US is about drugs in sports.

 

[Race Radio]

babble

Let us know if you find some sources that are not Clemens/Armstrong Media machine.